[Senpuu]

I'm sure everyone keeps up on Blue posts regarding tanking WotLK, so I don't have to mention that Blizzard is designing with the idea in mind that Druids, Paladins, Warriors, and Deathknights all can and will be capable raid main tanks for any fight.

As I understand it, any tank will be capable of tanking any fight, but each tank will have certain encounters where they are more ideal for the job. In this idea, I find no problem whatsoever, though I imagine I may be in the minority. After all, that's not really any different than how SWP ended up on live and I think the swappability of tanks in that zone is rather ideal.

That drives home my point though. If Blizzard is making tanking, as a general rule of thumb, a swappable job with certain min/maxing to be found between class choices based on encounters, then why is AE tanking the sole domain of the paladin still?

This rather irks me, I am fully willing to admit. I understand that paladins needed that niche role for a while when they really couldn't compete for a main tank role, but that is quite far removed from the current state of their class and even moreso with the slew of amazing stuff they're reaping from WotLK.

Personally, I don't see any justifiable reason that Blizzard can give to keep Druids and Warriors (and I suppose DKs too, if it be the case) from AE tanking.

If they gave Druids and Warriors the same AE threat level as paladins I think it would work itself out very well with the way that the classes are already designed. Paladins would still be the prefered tank for AE situations, but they won't have the monopoly. This is because they can force many more blocks than a warrior per unit time and because blocking is extremely high mitigation for lower damage hits (which is almost always going to be the case when AE tanking). This the heirarchy already falls into place. Paladin > Warrior > Druid.

I have a few thoughts on how I'd like to see this done for warriors - removing the target cap on Thunder Clap / restoring threat levels to prenerf on shouts / changing Shockwave to PBAE instead of cone / passive damage shield that scale with a stat (or is simply a new combat stat) - and I'm sure someone besides myself could come up with better ideas for druids, but that's not really what this post is about. I'd just like more recognition of this issue.

TLDR version:
Pallies hold a monopoly on AE tanking while Blizzard strives for equity in the role of MT. Give AE tanking to all tanks.

[ebs2002]

AE tanking is being improved for warriors. There was a post somewhere that showed how Blizzard wants each tank role to be "graded" as.

Warriors had advantages over the other classes as far as versatility is concerned, as did all the other classes. Paladins are still meant to be the best at AOE tanking, and warriors are meant to be second. I'm okay with this, so long as the end result is that there are some encounters/situations where a warrior is *more* desirable to tank, just as there are some encounters/situations where a paladin is, or a deathknight is, or a druid is.

I'm *NOT* okay with giving all 4 classes equal desirability in a given category. We may as well just roll up all four tank class/specs into one class: Tank.

Warriors can do alright with AOE tanking. Be smarter with your positioning when you shockwave, move around as you TClap. I'm all for increasing the number of TClap targets, or widening the cone of SW, but I'm against making tclap unlimited or making SW pbaoe. I'm not a paladin, I'm a warrior, and I like being different from a paladin.

[Roana]

Just to be clear, Blizzard has stated that they want warrior AE tanking to be closer to a paladin (without surpassing them), and have started to take steps in that direction. Right now, I'm more concerned about druids in that regard, actually.

Blizzard also stated that they want differences in how good tanks are at various jobs -- just not day-and-night differences. Warriors are supposed to be the best mitigation tank. Paladins are supposed to be the best AE tank. Death Knights are supposed to be the best caster tanks. Nobody knows what the particular niche of a druid is supposed to be (and from what I've been reading, Blizzard is still trying to figure that out themselves). But all tanks are supposed to be used in lieu of any other tank if needed without that screwing the raid up. If there are still large discrepancies, that's because Blizzard hasn't gotten close to fine-tuning class balance yet -- they've said that repeatedly.

For what it's worth, I imagine that tanking a single boss will either be the most interchangeable role or a thing of the past. I wouldn't be surprised if handling adds/guards/henchman will be the trickiest part of a raid encounter, and also where you get very distinct benefits from different classes (see M'uru, for example).

I would not get too excited over the potential of any single class being "the boss tank class". There will likely be no such class.

[Jasra]

Okay, we don't know *for sure*, but we have very good reasons to believe that the AE tanking difference between paladins and warriors will be meaningful.

What we don't know yet at all, is whether the boss tanking differences will be a meaningful or token differences. There really isn't anything we can do but wait and see - it can be cathartic to throw our own ideas out there for what we should be able to do to get there, but somehow I doubt they're terribly interested in our imaginary talents.

[Senpuu]

Well, the improvements in terms of AE tanking that warriors are receiving are still in full review and things can and will change between now and live by a large margin I would guess (it'd better), but I'd say from the way Blizzard seems to be hesitant to even up TC target cap by +1 that they don't see us as a capable AE tank.

I'm going to try to be slightly more clear in my message. Druids and warriors are invalids compared to paladins for AE tanking. I don't want to be a pally clone, as you put it ebs2002, but I want to be able to hold AE threat on a large pack of mobs against AE damage. That is my idea of AE tanking, not doing 5-6 mobs in an instance. ~5 mobs is a doable job for druids and warriors. 15-20 mobs is impossible and only can be done by a paladin.

I say this without the benefit of trying shockwave, but I really don't need to to tell you that it's insuffiencient for AE tanking as I just defined it. It's a step in the right direction, but will only hold against healing threat and not damage.

And, to address Roana, yes, I agree that tanking adds on boss fights, like on M'uru, can often times be the most challenging part of a fight. It'd be nice that when / if a raid is designed with that in mind in WotLK but on a larger scale, that paladins aren't the only class that can suffice for it. See Felmyst p2 for example.

[Roana]

What always bothers me is that there are only the two categories "boss tanking" and "AE tanking" that are considered. Tanking in WoW can be much more complex than that.

When you have multiple mobs where the incoming damage is so high that their damage needs to be mitigated, then a warrior even now presents you with the best tools -- it's just that aggro tends to be tenuous. There's nothing that stops Blizzard from putting adds into raid encounters that need to be disarmed or have their spells interrupted/reflected for maximum mitigation (in fact, Blizzard likes to do that already).

[Roana]

Source: Senpuu I say this without the benefit of trying shockwave, but I really don't need to to tell you that it's insuffiencient for AE tanking as I just defined it. It's a step in the right direction, but will only hold against healing threat and not damage.

I would look to Bloodbath for additional AE threat, actually. Also, AE tanking ability in the sense of "let's throw a dozen mobs at the raid and have them AE them down" is only relevant if Blizzard actually puts this kind of stuff in a significant number of raid encounters rather than designing their encounters differently. Note also that right now Blizzard is putting a lot of mini Shield Walls in the game, castable on others -- that may make it quite possible to turn mages and warlocks into short duration tanks for cannon fodder mobs.

[Klimpen]

Personally I see the minimum for AoE tanking being 'holding threat over healing but not damage'. With decent DPS, there shouldn't be a problem in the long-run.

[Jasra]

Source: Roana What always bothers me is that there are only the two categories "boss tanking" and "AE tanking" that are considered. Tanking in WoW can be much more complex than that. When you have multiple mobs where the incoming damage is so high that their damage needs to be mitigated, then a warrior even now presents you with the best tools -- it's just that aggro tends to be tenuous. There's nothing that stops Blizzard from putting adds into raid encounters that need to be disarmed or have their spells interrupted/reflected for maximum mitigation (in fact, Blizzard likes to do that already).

Yes, tanking is technically more complex than that, but it isn't really oversimplification to reduce things to AE vs Boss.

If we want to get picky, the only other category worth really considering is your overall non-tanking value. For someone interested in tanking, the first two are obviously the most critical though.

The reason why it isn't oversimplification is because the only thing that *really* matters when you're tanking is whether you can hold aggro and whether you can survive long enough to receive the next heal. Everything else is subordinate to the first two. AE vs Boss simply acknowledges the significant mechanical differences in survivability and threat considerations between fighting the one vs the many. That isn't meant to ignore synergies and other nuances, but it does let us stay focused on what really matters.

[Roana]

Source: Jasra Yes, tanking is technically more complex than that, but it isn't really oversimplification to reduce things to AE vs Boss.

If you're looking at it from the point of view of a raid encounter designer, it is entirely the wrong distinction, actually.

Boss tanking has to be normalized for all tanking classes. With now four tanking classes, you cannot afford to make raid encounters unsurmountable because the raid might not have the appropriate class, especially a tank-specced version. In addition, with the typical boss immunities, there is not much room for tanking classes to distinguish themselves.

When it comes to add/AE tanking, however, that is exactly where you can carve out niches for the individual classes without having less than perfect choices crippling the raid. Even more importantly, class is not the only determinant -- skill also matters.

AE vs Boss simply acknowledges the significant mechanical differences in survivability and threat considerations between fighting the one vs the many

It need not be that the boss is the higher risk to survivability than the adds. Threat considerations can also vary quite a bit by encounter.