[TomHuxley]

Ok, I've been thinking about this a bit more, and I think a lot of the differences come from what we want out of the game.

I discovered late in my TBC "life" that I loved tanking. I enjoy my mage and some other toons, but I love the theorycraft and skill required to tank. As a result I have been levelling a retadin who could respec to tankadin as needed, and was planning on a DK. I did not do this because I want to stop playing my prot warior, but so I could min/max myself in our guild raids. Similarly, my wife loves healing with her resto druid, so she has been levelling a priest and was about to begin a holy pally for similar reasons. Many people in our guild are excellent players on several classes and specs; obviously we can't always bring our flavor of the week spec to a raid, but we take responsibility in gearing ourselves up via crafteds, quests, and (when applicable) PvP, so we end up with a very enjoyable and very flexible playstyle, and sometimes we try out very diferent stacking to see what works (and sometimes we spectacularly find out what doesn't).

So for me homogenizing the rolls ruins a lot of the fun. It will similarly ruin the fun of having 3 different healers as well. It's not that I didn't want the different classes to be equal, I just wanted them to have different rolls (same with DPS, support classes, CC, etc).

It's not like we have no lives; we both work full time, have a child, etc. It's just that much of our free times spent playing together, and as Blizz has made it easier and easier to level a toon, we've taken advantage. But, if you only have one toon you want to play (or have time to play) I can see why you want to do everything posible on that toon, and I don't begrudge you for it. I guess it's unavoidable that or the other playstyle had to givce way.

All I ask, I guess, is to realize that these changes are not good for everyone. It's sacrificing a lot of gameplay for some players. And to be frank I feel a bit mislead, since early on the devs said specifically that each tank was going to have a niche (DKs for magic mitigation, warriors for physical mitigation, tankadins for AOE, etc). I could have been leveling my shamy and starting a rogue or something, but I was trying to apply my strengths (love of tank theorycraft) to be most useful for the guild (have a tank for every situation...our other warrior tank already has a geared bear too).

So for me the changes appear to be removing most of the depth of gameplay. I sincerely hope you guys who feel you are being shortchanged in TBC will get a lot more enjoyment out of WotLK, because I'm getting short-changed in order to do it.

So it better darned-well help someone out.

[Worldie]

You clearly didn't see craptons of boomkin / prot pala / elem shaman gear disenchanted while some people were still waiting for their damn loot to drop.

The reason for the mixing of the gear is simply not making again the stupid situation where Void Crystals were more common and costed half of Large Prismatic Shards.

[Krashtork]

People seem to think that being a warrior and never being asked to heal or dps is a great gig.

Well it's not.

Being sat out sucks. I'd rather heal with bandaids than sit out of a raid. Raiding is fun for me. I don't really care what role i play so long as i do it well and get to see the endgame. It's all about where you're motivated from: Loot, experiences, whatever. I for one am motivated by seeing the highest content possible.

Not to mention, in most guilds, if you're a tank, and get asked to play an offspec, you still get to roll on tank gear, so it's not like you get held back from the next series of encounters.

Basically I find it unbelievably selfish to see these hybrid classes who are able to do everything at a competitive level are pissed that Blizz has had the decency to give us warriors who are solely a melee class a slight advantage in the role that defines our usefulness. It's like seeing the little kid in the store who got candy, toys, and a new bike, but screams and moans and bitches that another kid got a slightly better toy, and wont be happy until he has a bigger better toy.

Seriously, is it THAT terrible that us warrior tanks get a couple extra bells and whistles since we aren't really good at anything else? Will you be able to sleep at night if we get to be a preffered tank for a couple bosses?

Sorry if this is a little flame-ish, it's not meant for anyone in particular, but a general sentiment as to how i feel about this all.

[Tatt]

Let's see..T5 example..I am top 3 dps in my raid as a fury warrior, last night I threw on tank gear and tanked A'lar adds...so I get 2 jobs and didn't have to sub out. You could do the same thing as a prot specced tank using dps gear on Akilzon. I think we have all lost track of what we are even arguing about.

[Ciderhelm]

Here's how I see homoge... (this word is really going to annoy me if it becomes mainstream)... ny.

1. I enjoy the hell out of tanking on my Warrior.

2. Getting to the level of play on my Warrior has taken a whole lot of time, energy, and practice. It isn't something new players will pick up right away (nor is it unachievable).

3. If Druids and Paladins worked exactly like Warriors, this would in no way diminish the skill required to play well.


Now, I'm not saying there can't be improvements or hybridizing going on to get the best parts of each class. They've already been working on that, both in TBC and WotLK. Devastate is a move towards the DPS of Feral Druids, Bloodbath and Shockwave towards the AOE capabilities of Prot Paladins.

But none of the changes have diminished my potential skill. They haven't flatly limited the benefit I gain from quick reactions and an understanding of my environment.


I don't know what Blizzard will do, but if every tanking class played exactly the same, I wouldn't mind it at all. Whatever the finished design turned out to be, if it included the best parts of each class and was available to each class, that's a win-win. Homogenization does not necessitate skill reduction.

I don't mind it as is, either. I just find class vs. class arguments that spawn from it as-is to be annoying.

[Klimpen]

Homogenization is a lie.

Consolidation of roles is not the same as consolidation of playstyles. Consolidation of roles is a good thing. A role is more the minimum expected output [skill * potential = output]. This does not mean unskilled players will be able be effective. There will be minimum standards. Just like there are now.

Basically what it comes down to in my opinion. I invest all my talent points and all my gear slots towards tanking. I should be as effective [overall, rather than in specific areas] as any other person who does the same. Regardless of class. Regardless of my perceived ability to do something else. Because when I'm investing myself towards something, I'm not going to be any good at doing anything else.

[Alent]

I don't completely buy into this "homogenization" concept. I see some distinct changes in talent trees that definitely don't do that. What I do believe in, is empowerment. Every single one of the changes I've seen to the tanking classes has been to push their envelope. These changes have the potential to homogenize the tanks to a degree, but I think in the end their identity will be preserved while we see their potential expand beyond where it is. Sure, we're gaining analogous skills. We always had them. Everybody that's compared Druid vs Warrior knows Mangle = shield slam, Devastate = Lacerate. Maul= Heroic strike. These are inevitable similarities based on the fact that we have to do the same thing.

Our rotations will, no matter what, always be conceptually the same at heart: TPS spike, Secondary TPS spike, AoE threat move where applicable, supplementary filler threat move while waiting for TPS spike cooldown. This "rotation" describes warrior, paladin and druid ~in the current implementation of wow~. You wanna talk about homogeneity? We have it, dude. Giving Druids and paladins panic buttons doesn't homogenize anything. It empowers them to step beyond where they are now.

Tanking should be about the player, not the class. Give every tank class powerful tools. Watch them tank.

I also want to slap everyone in the face for forgetting both sides of the equation. We have yet to fully see inscription. how do you know the inscription system doesn't change EVERYTHING? What if there's an inscription that makes shield slam hit multiple targets? What if there's an inscription that makes cleave hit 3 or maybe even up to 4 targets. What if there's an inscription that raises the number of targets thunderclap hits by 2? We've seen some preliminary inscription things. Someone in shoutbox just found out that there's a glyph that turns the paladin long cast heal into a weak AoE heal. Shouldn't this tell you something about how customizable ~and thus unique~ our characters could be in wrath!?

We are looking at a half finished model and IMAGINING something that hasn't happened yet!

[Worldie]

There's a glyph that increases swipe targets by 1, and a glyph that turns Avenger Shield into a single target skill, but nothing else tanking-related which is important at the moment.

I'd bet for a TC increasing glyph tbh.

[Joanadark]

Imagine you're a game developer in charge of class design for an MMO.

Your staff approaches you with the concepts for the 3 DPS classes they plan on introducing to your game.

Class A has a 2.0 second cast nuke that does 2000 damage. They can also tame harmless critters to follow them around in game, as well as gaining a unique magical pony mount graphic through a quest at max level.

Class B has a 2.0 second cast nuke that does 2000 damage, and a self buff that increases casting speed by 50%. They also can turn into baby manatees which increase their swim speed and look adorable.

Class C has a 2.0 second cast nuke that does 2000 damage, a self buff that increases casting speed by 50%, and a baseline 10% higher crit chance.


The developers smile and nod, and cheerfully explain to you that all the classes are equal because they can all do DPS. They proudly point out to you how distinguished from each other Class A, Class B, and Class C are, while all being able to fulfill their role of spamming the #2 key to cast their 2.0 second nuke.


The game goes live.

Players of Class A and Class B complain that they never seem to get taken to raids.

Class C retorts that they are whining spoiled selfish children who want everything that makes Class C unique and special.
They point out that Class C cannot tame charming little critters, summon a unique pony mount, or turn themselves into a baby manatee.
Therefore it is only fair that Class C should have a slight advantage in their, ever-so-much-more-woe-is-me-limited area of operation in order to make up for this. Classes A and B should QQ more, L2P.


But Classes A and B keep QQing. They can't seem to be able to figure out why their own specialized unique features just don't seem to be as good as they are supposed to be.

To throw them a bone, the developers throw in an encounter or two where the boss is distracted by Class A's cute critters and takes increased damage as it attempts to cuddle them, and an encounter or two where players need to swim from island to island in between DPSing.

But even so, Class A and B seem to consistantly not be taken for raids.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Tanking IS serving as a filter for big, scary, giant monsters/dragons/demons/oozes that deal a lot of damage.
Being good at "stuff that hits really hard" is not a niche, it's the DEFINITION of tanking.

Giving all TANKS the basic, fundamental tools to equally fulfill their role they share with you is not stealing your uniqueness, it's not homogenizing the classes, it's not taking the skill out of the game, it's certainly not eliminating the differences between them.

Blizzard has finally realized that claiming to have multiple options of tank that were just plain not as good at what tanking fundamentally consists of is...well...rather silly.

[Worldie]

I quite liked the example


What i don't get is what blizz is thinking, i read the (only) change to protection tree with current beta build, which is:

* Improved Shield Wall now reduces the cooldown by 30/60 secs. (Previously increased duration by 3/5 secs)

So, they felt the tree was bloated and now people can save 2 points? :| The talent was better before ...

[Worldie]

double post ftl

[Alent]

... So... a 30 minute cooldown can be dropped to 28? There's gotta be more to it...

[Arrivan]

Source: Alent ... So... a 30 minute cooldown can be dropped to 28? There's gotta be more to it...

Recent update on World of Raids

[Roana]

Source: Ciderhelm Who is asked to step out? In the guilds I've worked with, it's voluntary before it's required. If no one volunteers out, the Prot Warriors have usually been sidelined for progression kills. However, this never prevents the Feral Druid from volunteering himself or herself out first, they just choose not to because they do, in fact, enjoy DPS (or at least the chance at epic loot they're looking for).

Just to be clear, I am not talking about occasionally accepting a different role or having to bow out (and, as you know, I'm very strongly in favor of all players being able to fill more than one role). But there have been plenty of cases where druids, paladins, and warriors were required to primarily fill a role they didn't really anjoy. And for at least a couple of druids that has been being consistently resigned to a DPS role when they enjoyed tanking the most.

[phaze]

Source: TomHuxley So for me homogenizing the rolls ruins a lot of the fun. It will similarly ruin the fun of having 3 different healers as well. It's not that I didn't want the different classes to be equal, I just wanted them to have different rolls (same with DPS, support classes, CC, etc).

If you give a class large advantages in a particular role, then they simply can't be equal.

What's more fun: raids only use Warrior tanks because they're the best, or all 4 classes are well-represented in tanking because they're all equally viable?

As for 'all classes are becoming the same now': I disagree. They all play quite differently, and the devs are dedicated to maintaining that...while also making sure the designed roles are fully viable.

I feel a bit mislead, since early on the devs said specifically that each tank was going to have a niche (DKs for magic mitigation, warriors for physical mitigation, tankadins for AOE, etc).

They'll still have their niches. But they just won't be an overpowering advantage / severe drawback.

The role balancing is being done to improve class balancing. You're losing some minor depth that no one really enjoys (recruiting/benching players to min/max raid slots for a role), to gain a lot more depth that players want (classes being fully capable in their designed roles).

Klimpen's post above did a good job of summing it up:

Source: Klimpen Consolidation of roles is not the same as consolidation of playstyles. Consolidation of roles is a good thing.

------------------

Source: Krashtork hybrid classes who are able to do everything at a competitive level

Not without respecs and regearing. And from that angle, a Prot Warrior switching gear and spec to become DPS does just as well as paladins/druids.

As for tank flexibility between roles:
The Tank/Healer hybrid just isn't that needed for a raid that already has enough dedicated healers. But more DPS is always welcome. That makes Feral Druids, Prot Warriors, and Death Knights more flexible than Protadins; they're easier to work into a raid, when not tanking.

[Joanadark]

Source: Arrivan Recent update on World of Raids

WHICH MAKES THEM USABLE IN ARENAS OMG!!!

[Worldie]

Rather interesting.

I thought they'd nerf paladins, they instead made Shield wall pretty much exactly same as the bubblewall we got now.

[Roana]

Source: Worldie I thought they'd nerf paladins, they instead made Shield wall pretty much exactly same as the bubblewall we got now.

It was something that I was kinda expecting after the paladin change, actually. Long cooldown abilities aren't really something that works well in WoW, they had already slashed the cooldown on other abilities considerably, and there are enough Shield Wall-like abilities now that making Shield Wall usable more frequently wasn't going to unbalance anything.

The only question I really had was how they'd rebalance Recklessness and Shield Wall for the shorter cooldown.

[Jasra]

Source: Roana It was something that I was kinda expecting after the paladin change, actually. Long cooldown abilities aren't really something that works well in WoW, they had already slashed the cooldown on other abilities considerably, and there are enough Shield Wall-like abilities now that making Shield Wall usable more frequently wasn't going to unbalance anything. The only question I really had was how they'd rebalance Recklessness and Shield Wall for the shorter cooldown.

While knocking it down from 75% is apparently part of that, it would have been nice to see it more like 60% to mitigate closer to the AD/DP interaction. Nevertheless, it's good to see it being turned into something practical.

Likewise apparently they're doing the right thing with regards to DP and DG.

[Alent]

I want to see how inscriptions change these. Perhaps you'll be getting the duration back from inscriptions, or perhaps they'll be giving it +5% or +10%.

Or perhaps you'll get to choose between the two.