[Criss]

Source: Paruhdox Thats really odd, most of the females i know that play the game love to playing healing classes. It was the same in everquest, im sure you could do a very very interesting case study on why females play mmo's and when they do which class they are more likely to play.... of course on this forum they are most likely to all be warriors.

A think part of it has to do with the person, and why she's playing in the first place. Females who play because their husbands/boyfriends/whatever encourage them to play, generally play healers or casters. Females who play this game and others of their own volition tend to be more openminded about what classes they play. I've always played video games and I've been wanting to play MMOs since I knew they existed, so you don't have to wheedle me into playing by telling me I get to wear a pretty dress, or since everyone assumes females are so passive, I get to "help" people by healing instead of killing crap.

Oh, and Shorty, that happens to me all the time. I never feel the need to correct people when they refer to me as "he." In fact, most people, unless they've raided with me don't know my gender. I don't really see a point in trying to make myself stand out because of it.

My confidence was a little better tonight, although I panicked a bit the first time I did Kael'thas. It'll improve over time until I feel comfortable with these people, but I doubt I'll ever be able to be as confident as I was in my previous guilds.

[Paruhdox]

Source: criss A think part of it has to do with the person, and why she's playing in the first place. Females who play because their husbands/boyfriends/whatever encourage them to play, generally play healers or casters. Females who play this game and others of their own volition tend to be more openminded about what classes they play. I've always played video games and I've been wanting to play MMOs since I knew they existed, so you don't have to wheedle me into playing by telling me I get to wear a pretty dress, or since everyone assumes females are so passive, I get to "help" people by healing instead of killing crap. Oh, and Shorty, that happens to me all the time. I never feel the need to correct people when they refer to me as "he." In fact, most people, unless they've raided with me don't know my gender. I don't really see a point in trying to make myself stand out because of it. My confidence was a little better tonight, although I panicked a bit the first time I did Kael'thas. It'll improve over time until I feel comfortable with these people, but I doubt I'll ever be able to be as confident as I was in my previous guilds.

It completely depends on the person and in general, like i said 99% of the femails i know play healing roles. You cant really use this forum as a basis though, it just doesnt work.

[Shorty]

My guildies and other friends know that I'm a girl, but no one else - although my mage with pink pigtails might lean people towards thinking I'm a girl.

I started a warrior as my husband told me they were an easy class to start with - seeing as I'd never played a mmorpg before or any other game involving "wasd" movement commands - shorty hated that yeti cave - kept walking into walls Dont think he ever imagined I'd still be playing WoW a year later.

[Kazeyonoma]

Speaking of Confidence....

yesterday I respect Prot after probably some 4-6 weeks of being fury or arms to tank heroic slave pens. easy mode right? I did terrible. even with my full SBV set and newly acquired auto-blocker, the healers were pulling agro off me (we had a strange group makeup of me, fury warrior, rogue, holy priest in smite gear, and resto druid). I kept hearing on vent "Wow, i haven't pulled agro in 5 months" or "I'm not used to having to heal so much, you are taking so much damage" or the biggest blow, my rogue friend who i taught to tank on his alt and gave him all my macros offered to swap our chars and have me use his rogue while he used my warrior. That one hurt. Needless to say all the way up until after the 2nd boss I did bad, wipe after wipe, death after death, lost agro and dead druid, warrior pulling agro (which I didn't mind because he's heavily geared and if he "tries" can pull agro anyways), and rogue continually riticuling my attack order by using SWStats, I just stopped caring. I kept saying sorry, sorry, sorry, getting pretty offended by their comments, and slowly drowned out my conversations on vent. I felt like crap and wanted to just bail on the group to shed any other shame. I just couldn't figure out what was wrong with me. 30% damage white, 29% damage shield slam, 22% heroic strike was my breakdown. I just didn't get it, how was everything going so wrong with me firing off 1.6k shield slam crits and so forth?

I ended up just taking over textually (no more vent for me at this point) and said, sthu, i'm pulling and if you pull agro off me, i'm letting you die, this is getting stupid, i'm wasting taunts, and when healers die because of it, it isn't funny anymore. I told the Tree to just give me a minute with mobs and not to heal so fast, I can take at least some beating and since he admitted only 2/5 of his threat reducing talent, I wasn't gonna blame myself for him being 1/0/60 and not picking up that talent. Needless to say, I never died again that instance, and linked my druid guildy to tankspot's calculator and showed him my 4.1 css rating to prove that my gear was not "sub-par". I'm newly motivated now and wanna run instances all week now instead of pvp'ing because I feel I got something to prove now, these guys don't think I can tank anymore, so I'm gonna tank the hell out of places to prove em wrong.

[veneretio]

You walked into quite the nightmare party. A rogue (especially if this thing opens with stuns) + a fury warrior is horrible to begin with, but a druid without threat reduction can be even worse. Please don't tell me he was starting you with hots on to lead pulls. (IF he was, you gotta click them off )

Anyway stick in there, you got the right attitude!

[brain9h]

Greetings All,

I think confidence plays a great role when things go bad. Being calm and controlled helps put people in your group into a good mindset, seeing the good side of losing, learning and winning in the end, something people would enjoy, the feeling of satisfaction after a jog well done. We play this for fun after all.

Anyone nervous in party chat or teamspeak isn't helping anyone to have fun. A confident person will remain calm in such moments and with enough maturity will help control problems better -- but that isn't the tanks responsibility.

I see tanks being guild leaders quite often, and the tank is a natural position for raid leader and marking targets, setting the speed of the play, and so on, BUT, that doesn't mean the tank has to necessarily be the leader of the group.

The leader of a group, any group, will usually be the person who is regarded as more confident, wise or old, but that doesn't mean the person actually IS all that stuff, its his perceived image that counts. The WoW population in general is anxious, immature and lack basic knowledge of the game mechanics. Therefore, anyone can "profit", and become group leader easily by just speaking proper english (instead of l33tsp4ak), treating people with respect, and studying a bit of the game. That will often be sufficient.

I have put my ideas to practice, and they work quite often. I'm very new to wow (first post here!), my tank is level 68, and I think I haven't been to more than 10 instance runs, but I have been preparing a lot and was able to become a good group leader in almost all situations by just using good spirited words, apologizing when immature people gets nervous (even when I'm not wrong), and clearly stating that I understand the game mechanics. My experiences are both with PUG's and with my guild, its the same thing so far.

Examples:
- 1st minute, 1st pull in Auchenai crypts, "me: Is everybody new to this instance", yes, "Then I'm gonna try pulling first, lets see how this works". Wipe. "Sorry guys for the bad pull, but it's ok, we learned we can't sap that patrol in the center, next time we try something different, anyone want to pull?" -- Assuming mistakes, using proper phrases and mature speak. If I have said "shit! WTF was that LOL why did't u bubble me???" I'm pretty sure the PUG was dead. We took 3 wipes in the first room then we cleared the instance easily. Establish a calm and learning mood was key.

- Underbog, two giant bogs before the first boss. Group had 2 damage dealers that couldn't control themselves on the thrash, and one impatient mage that thought he was "pro" and was doing the pulls only to frost nova constinously and was creating a big mess. Hard to hold agro with that bad headstart. So, time to tank 2 giants, I made my statement "Ok guys, now things get serious. Mages and warlocks please keep your range so I have the 30% aggro advantage". Guess what, they didn't know about that rule. Someone says "what's that?", I say "I explain you later, just keep your range and let me apply 3 sunder armors before anyone else. I'll give a signal". Needless to say, I tanked perfectly, even received a 'good tanking' comment! Someone transfered me the group leader position and from now on they would always wait for me to mark and pull, UB went smooth.

In the situations above, I was really nervous and didn't quite know what to do, a total newbie. Terrified about making a mistake and wiping. But I was prepared for success AND failure. Reading about tanking, threat cycles, maths on the gear, consulting a boss guide, marking all the targets, commanding the start on the dps on the boss, and practicing with those... all ensured success. And when I failed, because failures ALWAYS comes, even though I was screaming FUCK behind the keyboard, I kept my confident image to the party, with positive thoughts. That helped everybody.

In the end it is REALLY about "the will to prepare to win", in all senses.

[Kazeyonoma]

Source: veneretio You walked into quite the nightmare party. A rogue (especially if this thing opens with stuns) + a fury warrior is horrible to begin with, but a druid without threat reduction can be even worse. Please don't tell me he was starting you with hots on to lead pulls. (IF he was, you gotta click them off ) Anyway stick in there, you got the right attitude!

The rogue didn't stun in openings, since I taught him to tank on his warrior alt, he understands the importance of early fight rage, especially if tehre's multiple mobs in a pull (NO RAGE, CAN'T TClap!). The warrior has the tier 1 1handed bs mace and the fel edged battle axe, so if his haste procs early, its gg agro. But Come to think of it, with 2/5 threat reduction, AND he was casting HOTs on me before I pulled, it would explain why i'd lose agro so fast. His excuse though was that he's not used to a tank who takes so much damage. But i checked my logs, I wasn't taking anymore than anyone else, greater bogstroks in the 1.5-2k range, regular bogstroks in the 700-1.2k, I think he was just finding excuses. He's pvp spec'd so I dunno. I think the biggest problem was lack of CC. and because of that, I'd have to split my agro amongst as many targets as possible and hence the loss of control often, it was worse because if i charged for rage, i can't tclap without breaking sap. If i range pull, I don't have enough starting rage. Quite the dilemma truly. But oh wells, its all done and over with now ;]

[Criss]

Source: Kazeyonoma Speaking of Confidence.... yesterday I respect Prot after probably some 4-6 weeks of being fury or arms to tank heroic slave pens. easy mode right? I did terrible. even with my full SBV set and newly acquired auto-blocker, the healers were pulling agro off me (we had a strange group makeup of me, fury warrior, rogue, holy priest in smite gear, and resto druid). I kept hearing on vent "Wow, i haven't pulled agro in 5 months" or "I'm not used to having to heal so much, you are taking so much damage" or the biggest blow, my rogue friend who i taught to tank on his alt and gave him all my macros offered to swap our chars and have me use his rogue while he used my warrior. That one hurt. Needless to say all the way up until after the 2nd boss I did bad, wipe after wipe, death after death, lost agro and dead druid, warrior pulling agro (which I didn't mind because he's heavily geared and if he "tries" can pull agro anyways), and rogue continually riticuling my attack order by using SWStats, I just stopped caring. I kept saying sorry, sorry, sorry, getting pretty offended by their comments, and slowly drowned out my conversations on vent. I felt like crap and wanted to just bail on the group to shed any other shame. I just couldn't figure out what was wrong with me. 30% damage white, 29% damage shield slam, 22% heroic strike was my breakdown. I just didn't get it, how was everything going so wrong with me firing off 1.6k shield slam crits and so forth? I ended up just taking over textually (no more vent for me at this point) and said, sthu, i'm pulling and if you pull agro off me, i'm letting you die, this is getting stupid, i'm wasting taunts, and when healers die because of it, it isn't funny anymore. I told the Tree to just give me a minute with mobs and not to heal so fast, I can take at least some beating and since he admitted only 2/5 of his threat reducing talent, I wasn't gonna blame myself for him being 1/0/60 and not picking up that talent. Needless to say, I never died again that instance, and linked my druid guildy to tankspot's calculator and showed him my 4.1 css rating to prove that my gear was not "sub-par". I'm newly motivated now and wanna run instances all week now instead of pvp'ing because I feel I got something to prove now, these guys don't think I can tank anymore, so I'm gonna tank the hell out of places to prove em wrong.

I've been in runs like that. =/

One time, I did a heroic shadow lab run with a mostly pug group to help out with a friend. I had done that instance on heroic three times before, and they all went flawlessly. But this run went very, very bad. Some of it was just that the group was horrible. One guy kept beating on targets that were being off tanked instead of focus firing, which led me to losing aggro to those, which led me to try to get aggro back on those.. which led me to losing aggro on the target being focus fired... which led to a near wipe. The healing was horrible as well (my gear's definitely more than good enough for heroics, ha), and the mage didn't know how to sheep.. or dps (he was close to me on the dps charts, and I'm prot and my block value is low :P). Needless to say, as much as it mostly wasn't my fault, it was one of those runs where I just sat there and tried to reevaluate my tanking skills. It definitely took a notch off my confidence to the point where I wouldn't do heroics for a day or two. :P

[veneretio]

Source: Kazeyonoma The rogue didn't stun in openings, since I taught him to tank on his warrior alt, he understands the importance of early fight rage, especially if tehre's multiple mobs in a pull (NO RAGE, CAN'T TClap!). The warrior has the tier 1 1handed bs mace and the fel edged battle axe, so if his haste procs early, its gg agro. But Come to think of it, with 2/5 threat reduction, AND he was casting HOTs on me before I pulled, it would explain why i'd lose agro so fast. His excuse though was that he's not used to a tank who takes so much damage. But i checked my logs, I wasn't taking anymore than anyone else, greater bogstroks in the 1.5-2k range, regular bogstroks in the 700-1.2k, I think he was just finding excuses. He's pvp spec'd so I dunno. I think the biggest problem was lack of CC. and because of that, I'd have to split my agro amongst as many targets as possible and hence the loss of control often, it was worse because if i charged for rage, i can't tclap without breaking sap. If i range pull, I don't have enough starting rage. Quite the dilemma truly. But oh wells, its all done and over with now ;]

Ya those guys in Underbog hit quite hard, so you definitely would be a challenge to heal if you had to tank all of them.

I've got in the habit of always range pulling these days. It opens up the option of using Intimidating Shout which is a wonderful way to get aggro on everything immediately. (Even casters are useful to tank this way since you can just cue spell reflects and hold agg from a distance)

I wonder... do you have Improved Blood Rage? I know that ever since I went to that many months ago I find its a godsend. Also, Great Rage Potions are very handy to have on hand for when Blood Rage is down and you aren't able to pull fast enough to maintain rage. (they'll also save you from those stun and triple dodge situations once you are used to them)

In particular, for difficult groups and actually for groups in general don't forget that low health mobs can be stunlocked via Concussion Blow followed by Intercept. Not to mention, you shouldn't be afraid to use Challenging Shout and Mocking Blow aggressively. It's going to take 5 minutes to walk back if you wipe and if you aren't used to using these then when that "perfect" situation arises that you need to use them in... you'll forget anyway.

And if all else fails.. hamstring things at let the ranged people deal with it

[Kazeyonoma]

yeh, slave pens actually, but same thing, they can hti hard, I think that was the problem, was that he kept saying I take too much damage, but its not because of my gear, its because i'm tanking 3-4 heroic mobs at once! We ended up becoming more flawless because of Intimidating shout, I'd LOS pull way back, Int shout, and begin the beat down, then fury warrior int shouts, then priest psychic screams. It worked out much better once we "CC'd" more because It was way easier for me to focus threat, AND have less heal agro.

The Armory

I did pick up Imp Blood Rage (first time in a while really) and its awesome, but no rage pots here, and having just respec'd i was sitting at only 70g O_o.

I use challenging shout a lot, but surprisingly I don't use Mocking Blow often, I think I need to create a macro that will quick change me to Battle stance and mocking blow for me to click on if taunt is on CD.

Thanks for the feedback though guys, helped me realize that I wasn't doing anything terribly wrong at all. ;]

[veneretio]

Source: Kazeyonoma I use challenging shout a lot, but surprisingly I don't use Mocking Blow often, I think I need to create a macro that will quick change me to Battle stance and mocking blow for me to click on if taunt is on CD. Thanks for the feedback though guys, helped me realize that I wasn't doing anything terribly wrong at all. ;]

Mocking Blow macro

And for a bit of a laugh, but also some perspective.

[Kazeyonoma]

Heh, to further my story rants, I tanked Heroic Mech and Heroic Setthek Halls last night without losing agro much at ALL, with basically the same set up

fury warrior, stealthy rogue (hell if I know his spec), druid healer/dps, priest main healer, and myself. Both went smooth, and still, no sun eater =( but 6 badges is always good =] And I think I picked up... an Epic Gem or two. and 2 void crystals =D

[snoopj]

I do believe there has to be a confidence factor that comes into tanking, especially being the MT of MTs for your raiding guild.

Personally, it wasn't until I finally got mad and snapped at my 40 man group back in MC. We were partnered with another guild about our size and we put our best together for early MC exploration. We were having an off night and on our way to Gehennas, we did some stupid stuff and wiped on a Destroyer/Giant/Lava Annihilator/Lava Surger pull (stupid pull with tons of confusion). Now, up to this point, I kept my mic on mute and barely typed in /raid. I finally got on vent and without being condescending to the raid, I calmly pointed out that it was time for our group to get their collective heads out of their asses and get this stuff done.

From that point, I finally grew the pair I needed to become a true raid leader on top of adding more and more confidence to the mix. I put them on my shoulders and in return, they kicked their performance up a few more notches than before. From that point on, I used more Vent time to discuss a few things and after a while, I was appointed the raid leader of the mix.

All it took was opening my mouth (in a correct way, mind you) and from there, it bloomed into something more and I went from just being a silent MT to a vocal raid leader (without putting a big head on my shoulder....always reminded that while our first kill of Ragnaros was a feat for our guild, many had already done it before us).

--snoopj

[Kazeyonoma]

If only my guild gave me a chance to lead. They think my gear is subpar because they compare me to our two MT's and instead give priority to another player, who although he has slightly better gear, his skill and understanding of mechanics is flawed, and they also don't understand much about 490 def, crushing blows, or avoidance vs. Stam/ac tanking.

They think you can become CB immune with 563 defense, they think you need 495 defense to get uncrittable, they say avoidance is the best way to tank, and blah blah. Its frustrating really.

[snoopj]

I guess what I did is backed it all up with my performance. It's not like I became a raid leader over night. I did have to follow up what I was saying with a performance that proved I was right.

--snoopj

[Criss]

Source: Kazeyonoma If only my guild gave me a chance to lead. They think my gear is subpar because they compare me to our two MT's and instead give priority to another player, who although he has slightly better gear, his skill and understanding of mechanics is flawed, and they also don't understand much about 490 def, crushing blows, or avoidance vs. Stam/ac tanking. They think you can become CB immune with 563 defense, they think you need 495 defense to get uncrittable, they say avoidance is the best way to tank, and blah blah. Its frustrating really.

Haha, story of my time in raiding. So many tanks in high positions know so very little, and it kills me. Not that I know a whole lot more, but I don't think I'm perfect, and I'm always working on learning more. There's a difference in that.

[Kazeyonoma]

yup, true that.

[Mylk]

Slightly OT:

Ok ok ok ... I admit it ... I'm a lurking non-warrior non-tank. I'm a firmly planted resto druid, and while I have the gear and ability to tank I prefer to heal (besides, I have Groundchuck to tank for me :P)

I noticed many people mentioning that women tend to like to play Healers to "help other people" and because they tend to be "more passive," and I'm here to offer another perspective. I like to heal b/c I like to be in control. I view healers as the "first ladies" of raiding (everyone knows that if you want something done at the White House you call the President's wife - she's the one that gets things done.) A good healer can manipulate an encounter, control the speed of dps, and help to teach raid members (god help the warlock that pulls aggro or the melee dps that stands in a cloud of green ... when has a green cloud ever been a good thing?!) In fact - I heal for many of the same reasons that many of you tank. I also heal, because I have a very hard time relying on someone else to keep me alive

In short - healing and tanking can be done for many of the same reasons. The main difference is that many guilds "cover up" lack luster healing by throwing more healers at the problem, while a MT is still the only one in the spot light.

[veneretio]

Source: Mylk In short - healing and tanking can be done for many of the same reasons. The main difference is that many guilds "cover up" lack luster healing by throwing more healers at the problem, while a MT is still the only one in the spot light.

Great points.

Although I hate to break it to ya, but you are relying on your tank to keep you alive too. The only difference is, as you've hinted towards, most of the time no one can cover for us

[Mylk]

Source: veneretio Although I hate to break it to ya, but you are relying on your tank to keep you alive too. The only difference is, as you've hinted towards, most of the time no one can cover for us

Quite true - but my MTs ability to keep me alive is directly related to both my ability to heal and their ability to tank. By healing my MT I'm in a small way helping to keep myself alive as well.

Slightly back on topic ....
There has to be a level of trust between a tank and their healers, but there also has to be a level of respect as well. As a healer, the best tanks to heal for are the ones that realize when it was their responsibility to stay alive (keep SB up, have the right resist gear on, take Ironskins when needed, have cooldowns/timers up for when healer mana is getting low, etc). I'm 50x more likely to do whatever I can to back up a tank that has an oops moment if I know they'll own up to it. On the other hand, if all I constantly hear is "omg why couldn't you keep me alive - its all your fault" I'm not entirely motivated to prop that tank up.

It all comes back to confidence. Yes sitting in front of a boss getting wailed on is nerve wracking, yes knowing that you are in the spot light if something goes wrong is intense, but it is admitting to the small things that takes real confidence. Being able to acknowledge the mistakes as well as the triumphs of yourself and those backing you up will make the missed pulls inconsequential. People generally look to the tank to make the first move, and if your first move is to make it ok to screw up as long as you learn from it ... you'll have an avid throng of healers ready to save your arse.