[Eravian]

So I saw another post dealing with this, but don't know if it was ever really resolved... what is the verdict on +20 Defense vs. +18 Stamina for shield enchants, especially as people look to progress into Heroic ToC (10 or 25-man)?

Any thoughts? I'm especially curious because I get two new pieces in 10-man Regular ToC last night, and will be gemming/enchanting them next time I'm on.

[Kazeyonoma]

+20 defense is a better overall enchant, if you think about it in gemming terms, you could have 1 epic gem worth of defense, or 1 green quality gem worth of stam. In that department it's a no brainer. However, stam is very important in ToC and obviously getting to acceptable levels is the first step to being able to handle a progression boss.

It comes down to the individual. I just broke 40k unbuffed hp as an orc warrior tank. To me, and to my raid, this is more than acceptable for the fights we've been working on, and as such, the extra avoidance I get from defense helps smooth out my incoming damage since I can survive the burst that happens to me. Your mileage may vary.

[Squirrelnut]

I <3 stam, have tons of defense already from all the ilvl 245 gear and only plan on switching back to 20 def once I get either the heroic 10m shield off anub'arak (which has a socket) or the ilvl 258 shield that has a socket. Heroic 25m ToC has crazy spike damage and I personally prefer a little extra stam > 20 def because I only really die to things like bad RNG from Gormok spike damage and more stam helps prevent that.

For anything prior to heroic 25m ToC however I agree 20 def does give you more value. It is really a preference thing and there is no clear winner since different people have different priorities.

[Petninja]

Source: Kazeyonoma +20 defense is a better overall enchant, if you think about it in gemming terms, you could have 1 epic gem worth of defense, or 1 green quality gem worth of stam. In that department it's a no brainer. However, stam is very important in ToC and obviously getting to acceptable levels is the first step to being able to handle a progression boss. It comes down to the individual. I just broke 40k unbuffed hp as an orc warrior tank. To me, and to my raid, this is more than acceptable for the fights we've been working on, and as such, the extra avoidance I get from defense helps smooth out my incoming damage since I can survive the burst that happens to me. Your mileage may vary.

The other way you can look at it is what would you do with two pieces of gear with similar stats except one took you from 540 to 544, and the other had another ~200 hp on it? In the event that epic defense gems existed but only green quality stam gems existed people would likely still use the green quality stam gems.

[Durandro]

Depends on if I'm above or below defense minimum. Keeping it at that level can be a real balancing act with lower level gear - but since you're in ToC that's not going to be the case.

Despite being a BC enchant, +18 stamina will usually be the one I'd prefer.

[Fayre]

I recently swapped to stamina to stack more for ToGC. I agree overall that defence is the 'better' enchant, but its one of the few places I can eke out more stamina from my gear.

[Karilyn]

For me it's a no brainer.

I have a few tanking items which have abysmally low defense for some reason.

I would not be uncrittable without the +20 Defense enchant. I would have less total stamina if I was to replace those tanking items with gear that would make me uncrittable without the enchant.

*shrug*

[Hamburglar]

I'm in some serious DR from defense rating atm, so I use stamina on everything.

[bacchanal]

Source: Karilyn For me it's a no brainer. I have a few tanking items which have abysmally low defense for some reason. I would not be uncrittable without the +20 Defense enchant. I would have less total stamina if I was to replace those tanking items with gear that would make me uncrittable without the enchant. *shrug*

This pretty much sums it up. From gems, you can get 1.5 stamina per point of defense rating. From a pure efficiency perspective, 18 stamina is a very INEFFICIENT enchant. But if you're defense capped, further defense will not increase your effective health at all. If you're not defense capped? Your effective health is halved until you are.

You're a lot better getting defense capped through this than swapping in two +10/+15 gems and losing 30 stamina (to gain 18 from the shield), a net loss of 12 stamina. But if you're already capped, you can clearly use stamina on shield. I use titanium plating myself for the additional threat, since I'm not tanking any content atm that requires a further glut of EH at this point.

[Dragon Bones]

Source: Hamburglar I'm in some serious DR from defense rating atm, so I use stamina on everything.

You do realize that DEF has no diminishing returns unlike Dodge / Parry

[Mookey]

Source: Dragon Bones You do realize that DEF has no diminishing returns unlike Dodge / Parry

Back to tanking school please. Maybe he said differently but it's obvious what he wanted to say. "Miss/Dodge/Parry gains from extra defense are hard diminished on his gear"

Defense (rating) is not on DR
Dodge/Parry/Miss gains from Defense are subject to DR

[Nayre]

Not quite. It does have DR, but it's indirect. It increases your parry/dodge/miss, each of which has a DR of it's own. It uses their individual DRs for the amounts added to each.

[Vassilly]

I like Def on the shield. It gives my favorite thing: Flexibility. I can throw on just about any combination without worrying about the cap. Whether it be the htoc ring or Burnished quel serrar its nice to be able to switch things up. It also gives you the option of going hit/stam in those yellow sockets you want. I have noticed my hit rating has dive bombed in my recent gear upgrades.

[ryofu]

What about +81 BV? At the moment it seems more beneficial than +20 def or +18 Stam.

[Badga]

Source: ryofu What about +81 BV? At the moment it seems more beneficial than +20 def or +18 Stam.

The way the ecounters in built in ToGC atm I find that hard justify. Every encounter with the exception of possibly one EH is the best stat. A large amount of the damage is unavoidable thus making EH such a highly valued stat (more so now than before). Health is and always has been a valued stat amount tanks and a lot of it is simply gearing for the encounters. In my personal opinion 18 stam in better, simply because of the mechanics of the current encounters.

[drae]

Source: bacchanal from gems, you can get 1.5 stamina per point of defense rating. From a pure efficiency perspective, 18 stamina is a very inefficient enchant. But if you're not over 540 defense, further defense will not increase your effective health at all.

QFT. Just changed edited the term "defense cap" because there is no such thing, yet we all understand what he's saying.

If you have the stats on your gear to remain above 540 defense, use stam. If you don't use Defense to shield.



edit: damn the differences between Canadian and American spelling.

[Sakkura]

Source: Hamburglar I'm in some serious DR from defense rating atm, so I use stamina on everything.

Ultimately, there are no diminishing returns on avoidance. Yes, you get a smaller percentage per rating when you have more avoidance already, but you also get a higher benefit from that percentage. Those two effects roughly balance out, leaving avoidance stats equally useful no matter how much avoidance you already have (except at very low gear levels, but that's irrelevant nowadays).

[padams7]

I have seen several pally tanks recently with bad gem/enchant choices.

When I inquire why they have 3+ Defense Gems and enchants like Stam to shield, +275 HP to chest and Agility to cloak I have been told "thats what it told me to do on Tankspot".

So somewhere, there is misinformation.

Folks - if you are having to gem for Defense and have not enchanted your chest, shield, cloak with defense enchants you are losing out on valuable stats that can be rearranged.

[Racker]

If you are in ToGc i would go for 20 defense because it adds to miss/dodge/parry/Block, Stam if you are in a lower end raiding guild only raiding they 18 stam for epeen is fine

[Aggathon]

Source: Racker If you are in ToGc i would go for 20 defense because it adds to miss/dodge/parry/Block, Stam if you are in a lower end raiding guild only raiding they 18 stam for epeen is fine

Actually 18 stam is better, for ToGC you need to stack stam.