[Heladys]

Source: Kazeyonoma wait wait wait wait. I still don't get it, why are these all invalid jsut because you died? while you were alive, it records how many swings you took, how many procs, and how long they stayed up no? how is that not valid?

If you truncated the logs at point of death, sure... but it didn't sound on first pass through the thread as if that was happening.

[Superspy23]

Source: Tarigar So essentially the buff would last me to ~ the 3rd swing.

In this case thats about right. 4 procs could get you a max of 40 seconds and it was up for 33 seconds. One proc went for full duration without a parry. I'm actually a little surprised by the percentage of parries that I'm seeing during the buff's duration. I haven't scoured through all the logs yet but every one I have seen has a very high parry during the buff period.

Thanks for helping out with posting all the logs by the way.

[Tarigar]

Source: Superspy23 In this case thats about right. 4 procs could get you a max of 40 seconds and it was up for 33 seconds.

If I had a buff last me 33 seconds and I got to the 4th proc then the effectiveness is diminished as far as a buff-proc ratio goes.

[Superspy23]

Source: Tarigar If I had a buff last me 33 seconds and I got to the 4th proc then the effectiveness is diminished as far as a buff-proc ratio goes.

I'm not sure buff proc ratio is the best way to look at this enchant. The particularly high parry rates during the buff period point to that.

[Tarigar]

Source: Superspy23 I'm not sure buff proc ratio is the best way to look at this enchant. The particularly high parry rates during the buff period point to that.

Think about it this way the longer the buff is up. The less of a parry chance I have.

So a boss has a 3 sec swing timer (This is to make math easy)

I get the bladeward buff and 3 secs later I parry it (because I parried it the buff expired).

So I got 1 parry per his 1 swing. 100% parry chance while buff is up.

Next:

I get the bladeward buff and i get to the 4th stack and it stays up for 33 seconds (the buff expires).

So now I get 1 parry per his 11 swings. 9% parry chance while the buff was up.

Due to having the buff up a longer duration the effectiveness of the enchant was effectively diminished since it took me longer to gain the effect i was looking for which is the parry.

[Superspy23]

In this instance the buff never stacked. 33 seconds is the cumulative total of the 4 separate occurrences of the buff. You parried 3 times which yielded the damage proc. That's a 4:3 ratio. Or you could say you received 10 attacks and parried 3 of them meaning you had a 30% parry rating in that period. This is the stuff I call incidental because its all subject to the RNG. It shouldn't be trusted entirely because it could just be a fluke.

Otherwise having the buff up a longer duration is an increase of number of attacks that are subject to a more favorable attack table which has an inflated avoidance and reduced hit chance.

[Tarigar]

Source: Superspy23 In this instance the buff never stacked. 33 seconds is the cumulative total of the 4 separate occurrences of the buff.

Even still the buff-proc ratio is a good way to measure the 'effectiveness of the uptime' of the enchant.

The longer the uptime the less the enchant is doing for me especially when the ratio of buff-proc gets further away. Each buff is effectively giving me less parries then if they were equal.

With this enchant we want a high amount buffs/procs to make up for the 'ideally low uptime'. The buff being up for 3 secs is better than it being up for 9 or more.

[Lizana]

Source: Superspy23 I don't know of any fights where the magic damage surpasses the physical for a tank. And I know that a double stack isn't guaranteed but all in all thats definitely not zero benefit.

Or how about Mimi?

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Both above are logs where the tank takes more magical damage than physical. And even on fights where the tank takes more physical damage, a large portion of the damage being taken is still magical. Below are some logs showing that



ignis, its a 60% physical 40% magical fight

Wow Web Stats

Or heres Iron council with an almost 60/40 breakdown

Wow Web Stats

Heres Kolo, 60/40 as well

Wow Web Stats

Hodir 60/40

Wow Web Stats


Dont forget to figure in on fights like this that even at 100% uptime, at best your only affecting a portion of the damage taken.

[Lizana]

Edited, thanks

[Superspy23]

Razorscale...
Jesmoo (warrior tank) took 78% physical, 13% fire and 9% nature damage.
Rathe (DK tank) took 72% physical, 24% fire and 5% nature damage.

Mimi...
Look closer. The end result was that only 40% of the damage received was physical but what about the 51.9% of attacks that were avoided. Just because he avoided more than half of the physical attacks doesn't mean that the boss threw more magic at him. Truth is that more physical damage was thrown at him but he did what tanks do and avoided most of it.

Its specifically mis inderstanding logs like this that prompts people to say "don't evaluate this one, its invalid" because they know that someone is going to misinterpret it by not breaking down the log correctly. So try to listen and don't evaluate it or be smart and evaluate it correctly.

[Superspy23]

Source: Tarigar Even still the buff-proc ratio is a good way to measure the 'effectiveness of the uptime' of the enchant. The longer the uptime the less the enchant is doing for me especially when the ratio of buff-proc gets further away. Each buff is effectively giving me less parries then if they were equal. With this enchant we want a high amount buffs/procs to make up for the 'ideally low uptime'. The buff being up for 3 secs is better than it being up for 9 or more.

That would indeed be awesome but likely OP if it always yielded an immediate parry. Still you need to try to focus on the overall benefit to understand this buff. I wasn't expecting to find out it was awesome. I was expecting to find out that it wasn't terrible.

[Lizana]

Actually the log that was invalid was not one with any such disclaimer. And it has since been edited out of the post. The mimi log is still a valid log, Just because you avoided damage ( as you should be doing anyways) it does not chance the fact that a large % of the damage in ulduar is magical. By the logic that you should look at every attack to see the damage, you should add in the blocks, dodges and misses to look at just the parry rate. Thats stupid to do so.

[Tarigar]

Source: Superspy23 That would indeed be awesome but likely OP if it always yielded an immediate parry. Still you need to try to focus on the overall benefit to understand this buff. I wasn't expecting to find out it was awesome. I was expecting to find out that it wasn't terrible.

I know it's not terrible as I was an original supporter of it. It does what it needs to do for me. It gives me about a 2% avoidance during an overall fight. Which for a buff on a proc to grant ~2% with my gear level it meets what it does.

But this enchant is not for every fight and it basically boils down to preference.

[Superspy23]

Source: Tarigar But this enchant is not for every fight and it basically boils down to preference.

I totally agree.

[Pwaster]

Wow Web Stat for 6/24 25 man uldar

I used blade warding on Shiver, I have 19.5% parry. Your welcome to look at them all.

But I tanked: Kologran, Hodir, Mimiron, Freya and Thorim

Looks like about 14.5 % uptime for me on average.

You want some logs so there you go.

PW

[Superspy23]

Source: Lizana Actually the log that was invalid was not one with any such disclaimer. And it has since been edited out of the post. The mimi log is still a valid log, Just because you avoided damage ( as you should be doing anyways) it does not chance the fact that a large % of the damage in ulduar is magical. By the logic that you should look at every attack to see the damage, you should add in the blocks, dodges and misses to look at just the parry rate. Thats stupid to do so.

I never said that magic damage is irrelevant or that this was the preferred enchant for high magic fights. All I did was rebut your claim that it has "zero" effect on fights with high magic. It's not favorable but it's not zero.

[marklar]

Source: Tarigar It gives me about a 2% avoidance during an overall fight.

it seems that superspy's analysis of the logs are putting it at ~1% avoidance; are you getting different results, or interpreting the logs differently?

btw, great work superspy; i'm glad someone is finally putting some numbers to this enchant.

i'm still going to use blood draining, but at least now i know what i'm giving up: 1% avoidance that is even more unpredictable than normal avoidance.

[Tarigar]

Source: marklar it seems that superspy's analysis of the logs are putting it at ~1% avoidance; are you getting different results, or interpreting the logs differently?

I am interpreting them differently as I assume that every proc that occurs is from Bladeward and not baseline. I compare those procs to the number of total boss swings.

[Superspy23]

2% isn't unfair when you look at the system as a whole. For instance if you have 50% avoidance and you increase that by 1% you've improved your survivability by 2% over what it previously was. Because 1 is 2% of 50. The more avoidance you have the more reliable it becomes. It actually negates (mostly) the effect of diminishing returns. There was some thread about this called something like "DR on avoidance, not really" or some such thing.

Also I was briefly glancing at Pwaster's (Prot pally) logs... At first glance they look terrible in regards to up time against what I've been seeing usually on warrior tanks. I'll have to break that down a little later when time permits.

[Tarigar]

Super try this out for your calcs it should make life easier. You are factoring in DR but not DR overall in comparison to the person's gear.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...9djxU0jQ&hl=en