[Thad]

so i'm trying to figure out what weapon enchant i should stick with. i've tried many different ones but can't decide which is best and i keep hearing different things. so which one of these should i get:

Blood draining
Mongoose
Titanium Weapon chain
Accuracy

[Lyco]

When Progressing in Ulduar:
Blood Draining

When you feel your TPS isn't what it should be and your survival is high enough:
Accuracy

I think that's a pretty solid answer.

[Thad]

alright sounds good.

[Evereghalo]

Depends on your Class,

Warrior: Threat - Accuracy, Survivability - Blood Draining,

Paladin: Threat - Accuracy, Survivability - Mongoose,

- Reasons: Blood Draining appears to proc of bleeds, and the 15-5-51 Build seems to play well into that. As for Paladins, 1) The theory crafting behind causing an AD jump, which is enough for me. 2) No Bleeds so will only proc off of being low. 3) Mongoose still keeps up a good proc rate.

[Lizana]

Source: Evereghalo - Reasons: Blood Draining appears to proc of bleeds, and the 15-5-51 Build seems to play well into that. As for Paladins, 1) The theory crafting behind causing an AD jump, which is enough for me. 2) No Bleeds so will only proc off of being low. 3) Mongoose still keeps up a good proc rate.

1.) It has been proven mathematically that Blood draining will never decrease Time to Live value. At worse it will not increase your time to live.

TLDR Summary: * While Blood Draining can push us out of AD range, and thus cause "leapfrogging" that kills us, reducing our TTL in some situations, it also adds TTL to other situations where we were in AD range but had slightly less HP than the size of the incoming hits after AD mitigation is factored in. * As a result, at least in this simple analysis, Blood Draining will never reduce your average TTL, assuming that your "starting health" obeys a flat probability density function. So at least in that respect, the naysayers were wrong. * Yes, the above is an unreliable (and probably incorrect) assumption, but without a more involved model of how healing effects change the probability density function, it will be hard to come up with anything rigorous. Empirical data might help here. * Despite the fact that blood draining won't reduce your survivability, it also doesn't do anything to increase it for very large boss hits. Unfortunately, very large boss hits are often what kills a tank, making this an expensive enchant that works best in the cases we don't need it, and worst in the cases we do.

The above quote is taken from Maintankadin • View topic - Blood Draining Enchant - TTL Simulation . So on average it will not kill you more than it will save you. In fact it will save you more often that it will kill you.

* Adding healing to the equation extends the range in which Blood Draining is useful. * A good rule of thumb is (AD_Threshold + Incoming_Heals - Boss_Hit_size) > 0. The bigger the value, the better the enchant is. * Blood Draining never reduces your TTL. The extra AD Leapfrogs it causes will always be at least offset by the extra AD saves it causes.

2.) It stays up just fine and stacks quite quickly with just auto attacks and normal attacks. You know the same thing Mongoose procs off of... I am a warrior tank that doesnt put rend up most of the time, and i dont have DW spec, and you know what i have a 5 stack very quickly and can maintain that stack on any boss fight i have tanked so far...

3.) Mongoose has a worse proc rate at 80 than at 70, and the dodge it gives is subject to DR.

[Thad]

so i don't get what you're saying. are you saying blood draining is worth getting or that it isn't?

[Lizana]

If you are a MT on progression content Blood draining is very worth it to get it, unless your are a druid or a DK

[Tarigar]

I am using bladeward and from my reports it has about a 20-25% uptime. just an fyi.

Here are my reports. I tanked on all bosses but Hodir.
Wow Web Stats

[Thad]

Source: Lizana If you are a MT on progression content Blood draining is very worth it to get it, unless your are a druid or a DK

alright well i do mt on alot of fights so i guess i'll stick with it for now.

[Lizana]

Source: Tarigar I am using bladeward and from my reports it has about a 20-25% uptime. just an fyi. Here are my reports. I tanked on all bosses but Hodir. Wow Web Stats

From your WWS, you only parried 38 times due to blade ward. 38 times in 4 hours.

For a "avoidance" enchant it doesn't give a lot of avoidance...

Heres my WWS report from tonight.. As a note, i only tanked the big guys on razor, and tanked the boss for a whole about 35 seconds till i got out of range of our healers. That fight and trash for X002 was all the tanking i did... Blood Draining applied itself 58 times with zero bleeds.. And it healed me 5 times...5 times for a total tank time of less than 25 min is pretty dang great...

Wow Web Stats

[kyle46]

Bladeward prevented 440,000 damage over the course of the night on bosses assuming the bosses hit for approx 22k. For blood draining to do the same it would have to proc 200 times with a 5 stack. Bassically to do that you need to fall below 35% health 200 times in a night. That's a few too many times more in a night than I'd like to see my health drop below 35%.

[Lizana]

Source: kyle46 Bladeward prevented 440,000 damage over the course of the night on bosses assuming the bosses hit for approx 22k. For blood draining to do the same it would have to proc 200 times with a 5 stack. Bassically to do that you need to fall below 35% health 200 times in a night. That's a few too many times more in a night than I'd like to see my health drop below 35%.

Bladeward did not prevent anything, for all we know everyone of the parries that bladeward proc was up for, would have happened even if bladeward had not proced. Your basically having a chance on hit to have a small increased chance to avoid a hit. Also when you consider the overhealing it causes...

And one last thing, that many procs in a whole night, you have to remember it can proc on trash as well.. You may waste a parry on a 2k hit that you could have blocked anyways...

[kyle46]

I acctually went through the WWS logs and figured out how many blade ward procs on Bosses it was significantly higher over the whole night. And as for over healing teach your healers to cancel cast or stack more regen. All avoidance is going to make overhealing go up more if your healers don't stop casting. That doesn't mean avoidance is bad. It means your healers need to be better.

Also blood draining in the optimal circumstances will almost never save you on a boss that would otherwise kill you. If you have 44k health raid buffed blood draining only procs when you are under 15.4k health. With a heal of 2200 that brings you to 17.6k health. Every boss in ulduar will hit you for more than 17.6k health. You still need a large heal to live through the next hit. Optimal circumstances for bladeward it can save you by boosting your avoidance in that situation to parry the next attack so your healer can get that big heal off. At 19% parry with a one stack of blade ward it bring your parry chance up by about 4%. This is an extreme example but the extreme is what kills your tank in ulduar.

As a side note blood draining can get you killed as a paladin in a case where you would have lived by pushing your over the Agrent Defender threshhold allowing the boss to leapfrog the 30% damage reduction. Sometimes it can push you up high enough to live through the incoming hit but as a personal prefence I avoid things that sometimes save me and somtimes get me killed.

[Lizana]

Source: kyle46 As a side note blood draining can get you killed as a paladin in a case where you would have lived by pushing your over the Agrent Defender threshhold allowing the boss to leapfrog the 30% damage reduction. Sometimes it can push you up high enough to live through the incoming hit but as a personal prefence I avoid things that sometimes save me and somtimes get me killed.

This has been proven wrong... as of about a month ago...


Also blood draining is not supposed to keep you alive by itself. Instead it gives your healers a buffer to keep you alive. They dont have to have the largest heal always landing to save you they might be able to save you with a insta heal and then they have the time to use a larger heal.

[metalhodo]

so, ive read the whole thread, and im still confused..
so, simple question:
would blood draining help a pala tank more than lets say, mongoose?

[Lizana]

Blood draining is a great EH enchant. It is very highly recommended by many top pally theorycrafters if you are a MT on progression level content. Mongoose is an avoidance enchant. You cannot directly compare the two.

[Thad]

okay so I've been looking over logs from the last month and blood draining does not seem to go off that often. don't get me wrong it is up 100% the time I'm tanking but the actual heal doesn't seem to go off that often which i suppose makes sense but still the most it ever goes off is on attempts where we've wiped.

this has led me to believe that this a useless enchant like 80% of the time. this may simply mean that i have great healers so i prolly shouldn't hold it against the enchant. so now I'm gonna need to figure out a more useful enchant to start using.

so i'm looking at either accuracy or mongoose and maybe blade warding if the general opinion on that one has changed or not. and ideas?

[Tarigar]

I am an avid fan of Bladewarding>Mongoose. Bladewarding won't grant you the haste that mongoose will unless you get a parry. I had mongoose for awhile and wasn't impressed by it and Bladewarding is meh also.

Blood Draining I can't say as I have never used it. I do reccommend it however for tanks that have a low EH value. Especially if you are with in the 2 kill rule.

[Thad]

so i'm hearing accuracy then?

[Tarigar]

Go with which one you like... I think more importantly is you get it enchanted with anything but sp, int, and spr.