[Tavia]

Really nice guide - big thumbs up.

I am in the same position as Panax:
Does the caps and the rules for when to stack what also apply to druids?

Hugs

/Tavia

[Taninor]

so after reading this guide it's made me wonder how much of my other stats I can give up to try and cap expertise.

The World of Warcraft Armory

That's my armory link, any suggestions?

[Malignus]

Source: Tavia Really nice guide - big thumbs up. I am in the same position as Panax: Does the caps and the rules for when to stack what also apply to druids? Hugs /Tavia

The caps are the same for all classes. As a druid, you start with 10 expertise skill if you take 2/2 Primal Precision (versus 6 expertise skill for a warrior with 3/3 Vitality), so the amount of expertise rating required is substantially less to hit the dodge or parry cap.

The amount of required hit rating would be the same.

[Malignus]

Source: Taninor so after reading this guide it's made me wonder how much of my other stats I can give up to try and cap expertise. The World of Warcraft Armory That's my armory link, any suggestions?

Since you have access to 25 man raid loot, you have the potential to cap both hit and expertise. Check the example below for an idea of what your other stats would look like.

chardev.org v4 - A World of Warcraft character planner - template #107880

[Panax]

Source: Malignus The caps are the same for all classes. As a druid, you start with 10 expertise skill if you take 2/2 Primal Precision (versus 6 expertise skill for a warrior with 3/3 Vitality), so the amount of expertise rating required is substantially less to hit the dodge or parry cap. The amount of required hit rating would be the same.

That's great that the caps are the same. So if I'm not mistaken (and I easily could be) those caps should be fairly easy to hit for druids. So much of our gear has hit and/or expertise built into it, that we shouldn't be too far off. I'm currently looking at what I need for pre-Naxx when I hit 80 and will take these numbers into account. Thanks again!!

[Lepermessiah]

Great thread thank you, I am clear on where ideally I need to be with hit and expertise and until now I was unclear on min/max.

With that I have another question about when to make it a top priority in my gear progression. And I am not sure if this is the appropriate place to to post or not so I am just going to go for it.

I am a new 80 prot warrior, not that I am new to prot just new to 80. I am doing heroics succesfully and just starting naxx.

Here is my question: In what priority to start focusing on expertise and hit? Here is what what my guess at priority is.

1) Get 540 defense
2) Get roughly 23Khp 23k armor (I am not sure if this should be higher, I am stacking stam up to 26.5khp currently) but after reading this I think I am taking the wrong approach.
3) Along with the 23khp 23k armor aim for the 20/20/20 mitagation stats.
I am lacking in all of these stats and not sure how to get them and stack hit and expertise as well. I have several of the pieces of the above mentioned gear but cant make the hit cap at all or worse cap them both I can cap expertise but i feel like I lose to much stam or other mitagation stat.
4) If you have 23k/23k, 20/20/20 then stack hit and experitse until you cap. But can you do it all?

I am a bit confused and started rambling several sentances ago. If anyone can help clear this up i would appreccaite it.

This is what I where most of the time if you want to offer some advice on where my stat priorities are incorrect.

The World of Warcraft Armory

Thanks much for any advice or tips. And i apoligize if this in the wrong spot.

Thanks again,

First Time Poster!

[ivanstone]

Source: Sumendis Come to think of it, there are situations where prioritising hit over expertise (after dodge cap) would be beneficial: 1. Bosses with a tank-switch or aggro dump, like Noth, Gluth, 4H for example, where you want to reduce the chance for taunt resist. 2. Bosses where you need to interrupt a spell, currently this is only Kel'thuzad's frostbolt. He can't dodge or parry while casting but your shieldbash can still miss. I'd imagine in the 25man version you should have enough melee dps with interrupt abilities, but in the 10man version this could be a consideration.

There's a 3rd reason as well. If I'm not mistaken, Thunderclap and all offensive Shouts are spells that are unaffected by Expertise but still are affected by Hit. This makes a certain amount of hit necessary for any fight that may contain adds as well as all trash/heroic encounters.

[Aggroir]

Awesome guide!

This guide helped me alot!
I always wonder...
hey! why am I always 3rd
on omen list after the other two tanks.

Now I know how to master the aggro art!

Thx alot!
------------------------------------------------------------------

Aggroir <Azeroth Alliance> Kul Tiras EU
lvl 80
Gnome Warrior

[Dizzy]

Great post, thanks.
Just wondering where you got that shoulderenchant from.

[Malignus]

Source: Lepermessiah Great thread thank you, I am clear on where ideally I need to be with hit and expertise and until now I was unclear on min/max. With that I have another question about when to make it a top priority in my gear progression. And I am not sure if this is the appropriate place to to post or not so I am just going to go for it. I am a new 80 prot warrior, not that I am new to prot just new to 80. I am doing heroics succesfully and just starting naxx. Here is my question: In what priority to start focusing on expertise and hit? Here is what what my guess at priority is. 1) Get 540 defense 2) Get roughly 23Khp 23k armor (I am not sure if this should be higher, I am stacking stam up to 26.5khp currently) but after reading this I think I am taking the wrong approach. 3) Along with the 23khp 23k armor aim for the 20/20/20 mitagation stats. I am lacking in all of these stats and not sure how to get them and stack hit and expertise as well. I have several of the pieces of the above mentioned gear but cant make the hit cap at all or worse cap them both I can cap expertise but i feel like I lose to much stam or other mitagation stat. 4) If you have 23k/23k, 20/20/20 then stack hit and experitse until you cap. But can you do it all? I am a bit confused and started rambling several sentances ago. If anyone can help clear this up i would appreccaite it. This is what I where most of the time if you want to offer some advice on where my stat priorities are incorrect. The World of Warcraft Armory Thanks much for any advice or tips. And i apoligize if this in the wrong spot. Thanks again, First Time Poster!

The armory forum is probably better for this. One general rule I follow is maintain the defense minimum (540), let avoidance come from your gear, gem for stamina as necessary to survive 3-4 hits from most bosses without a heal, and work on your hit and expertise from there.

[rage]

i'm not sure if you were only adding 80 raid due to the wotlk launch, but as far as threat trinkets go blackened naaru sliver is still the best in slot if you aren't expertise capped and the battle trance is awesome for threat generation, steely naaru sliver is also nice and has a useful tanking use. if you weren't lucky enough to do sunwell or just didn't have luck on drop rates the expertise trinket out of heroic mgt is also very nice, and as far as ive seen lk doesn't offer many options as far as expertise trinkets go, so until you down malygos these may help a bit.

[GravityDK]

Source: Malignus Since this stat lowers two forms of avoidance up to the dodge cap, this stat is doubly important as hit up to an expertise skill of 26.

I had thought that the boss attack table used a single-roll system.
Therefore he has a 6.5% dodge + 14.25% parry = 20.75% chance to do one or the other?

You however are saying you avoid both dodge and parry by equal amounts if you had say +1% expertise.

That would mean the boss only has a total of 14.25% to parry/dodge and if the RNG for boss < 6.5% then they dodge and between 14.25 ... 6.25 they parry?

Maybe you're right but it just doesn't make sense to my understanding of how the single-roll boss attack table works.

[Petninja]

It works kind of like defense but in reverse. Where defense rating loses some of its value after 5.6%crit expertise loses some of its value after dodge has been removed from the table. Essentially it's a stat with a very sudden curve on diminishing returns (half way to cap it becomes ~half as valuable).

[EUN]

First, thank you for the post. It was very, very helpful with trying to figure out what build I should strive for with the changes in game mechanics and new content.

Here is a list of items/enchants that I put together with 100% heroic and badge gear. I am still tweaking it, but I have reached the Promised Land:

272 Hit (capped)
26 Expertise (dodge capped)
544 Def (crit capped)
26.9k HP
23.4k AC
2267 AP
336 DPS

I copied Ciderhelm's 15/5/51 talent recommendation and love it. I can (and usually do) AoE tank like a Ret Pally.

Eun Armory

Head: Arcane-Shielded Helm + Austere Earthsiege Diamond + Guardian"s Twilight Opal

Neck: Chained Military Gorget

Shoulders: Pauldrons of Reconnaissance + Greater Inscription of Warding

Back: Cloak of Peaceful Resolutions + Enchant Cloak - Steelweave (Note that Cloak of the Enemy is a fine substitute)

Chest: Sun-Emblazoned Chestplate + Enchant Chest - Greater Defense

Wrist: Bracers of the Herald + Enchant Bracers - Expertise (Note that Bindings of Dark Will are a fine substitute)

Hands: Horn-Tipped Gauntlets + Enchant Gloves - Expertise

Waist: Waistguard of Living Iron + Enduring Forest Emerald

Legs: Bolstered Legplates + Precise Scarlet Ruby + Frosthide Leg Armor

Feet: Sabatons of Draconic Vigor + Enchant Boots - Greater Fortitude

Weapons:
Red Sword of Courage + Titanium Weapon Chain
Crygil"s Discarded Plate Panel + Enchant Shield - Major Stamina
Armor Plated Combat Shotgun + Solid Sky Sapphire

Note that rings and trinks DO NOT MATTER with this build. Provided that the slots have just enough Def to get you to 540, they can be anything and changeable as the encounter dictates. In my build, I keep Def on the rings and HP on the trinks, but I could easily swap them for extra DPS or whatever. This way, I do not have to carry anything but trinks and rings in my bag since all my important tank stats are on my main gear. Because my HP are above where they need to be for Pre-Naxx, consumables are pretty much strength food, strength scrolls, and a flask with an occasional armor pot just before engaging bosses (so that I can still sneak in a heal pot during combat).

Ring 1: Unsmashable Heavy Band
Ring 2: Band of Torture
Trink 1: Indestructible Alchemist"s Stone
Trink 2: Essence of Gossamer

Again, I am still tweaking it and I expect to be @27.5 HP unbuffed and pre-Naxx. Hopefully someone reading the original post will also find this list and build-style helpful.

Full credit for the build inspiration goes to Malignus' post. Thanks!

[Bodasafa]

These bracers scream threat Bracers of Lost Sentiments - Item - World of Warcraft

I got them in naxx the other night, I think they belong on your list. I just got Repelling Charge - Item - World of Warcraft so I can play with some items without DEF on them.

[Lothalin]

Just using this thread and cinders easy 540 thread I threw together a quick chardev that I will be trying to acheive with my DK that will not be doing any raids at all, he is strictly stuck to heroics or less. Ill post it for anyone else to critique and see if they can make it better. As a quick look I will put highlights here.

Def: 567
Hit: 8.75%
Exp: 40
HP: 28513

Would also need to be a LW, and a JC.

Let me know if anyone can cap the exp without losing Def/hit caps and no raid gear.

DK Tanking build pre-raids

[Marcellous]

In regards to the situation of itemization preference after reaching the dodge cap in expertise, it appears to me that each point of hit or expertise rating provide exactly the same increase in your chance to land a blow. The important difference is, when you miss you do not generate a haste buff on your target as you do when you generate a parry. So, in the sense of providing a kind of mitigation, expertise is still a superior stat point for point. However, when speaking of bosses that do aggro wipes, having a guaranteed taunt may be preferable and in terms of making your abilities reliable only hit rating can do so. In regards to taunt, expertise does nothing as it cannot be dodged or parried so I would say that in such a situation, meeting the hit cap would come before choosing any gear for expertise. The name of the game for tanking is consistency, and resisted taunt often means dead healers if you do not regain aggro otherwise very quickly, which usually spells a wipe.

So, personally speaking I would prioritize expertise over hit rating up to the parry cap on my standard gear set, but ideally have some way to swap to boost hit in the cases where I need snap aggro via taunt as a requirement of the fight. If I have reiterated what anyone else said I apologize for cluttering the forums, but I just had a moment of clarity on the issue and though I might share.

[Mihir]

Source: Lothalin Just using this thread and cinders easy 540 thread I threw together a quick chardev that I will be trying to acheive with my DK that will not be doing any raids at all, he is strictly stuck to heroics or less. Ill post it for anyone else to critique and see if they can make it better. As a quick look I will put highlights here. Def: 567 Hit: 8.75% Exp: 40 HP: 28513 Would also need to be a LW, and a JC. Let me know if anyone can cap the exp without losing Def/hit caps and no raid gear. DK Tanking build pre-raids

You also used the inscription shoulder enchant, which isnt possible if you already took the LW bracer enchant and the JC gems.

[Lothalin]

Good call, I updated it to remove the shoulder enchant, thanks for catching that.

[Worden]

Source: Armstrong Once you've reached the dodge cap, expertise rating and hit rating increase your chance of landing an attack at the same exact rate. Any particular reason for the above recommendation?

Personally I'd go for that because in any normal situation the chance of landing an attack is the same but if you need to keep 2nd on threat attacking from behind ignores parry. Just a thought.