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Gearing theory for 1h + Shield DPS
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  #1  
Old 09-21-2008, 12:32 AM
Rosnops
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Gearing theory for 1h + Shield DPS

Disclaimer of nubness

So heres the deal, I leveled as a Dual Wield Protection spec warrior from 60-70 and immensely enjoyed being able to switch between tanking a run well, and then doing ok dps. I want to level 70-80 as Protection as well, being able to tank with all my tank toys really appeals to me and i'll happily loose the benefits of leveling as a pure dps spec. With the current state of the protection tree it looks like i'll be able do this as well. So my current goal and plan in game is to create a set of gear to wear while leveling with a shield + 1h.

Secondly, my available gear pool is low. 10 man content only + Badge/Craft able loot.

Thirdly, theory crafting is hardly my strength

Desirable Characteristics

I'm not too sure, I don't have any factual hard numbers to compare the difference stats with regards to offensive dps/grinding. So what I do know is a combination of guesstimates, past experience and whats actually available on gear.

For example there are no necks which have Strength and Block value on them.
I consider these two stats to be the important ones.

Strength - Attack power, and block value.
Block Value - Nuff said

I'm sure there is a ratio or a way of breaking these down to compare them, since strength gives us attack power as well as block value therefore affecting all our other attacks .

From the quick research i've done (and my limited understanding of item values/stat points(and please correct me if i'm wrong)) these are the stat costs for strength and block value.

Strength = 1
Block Value = .65

So for 10 modpoints we could get

10 strength giving 10 Attack Power and 5 block value

or

15.3 block value

I've made the assumption that we are better taking gear with strength and other stats rather than gear itemized with Attack power. So i'll start with looking at Amulets since its an easy example.

There are really only two real options for the Neck in a pre kara gear level that fit the Block value and Strength criteria and these are:

[item]Mithril Chain of Heroism[/item] And [item]Steam-Hinge Chain of Valor[/item]

Looking at them from a completely offensive point of view, the Mithril chain has 14 Block value and 56 Attack power - vs the 29 block value on the Steam-Hinge neck. Not to mention the Crit chance from the Mithril chain.

Compared to something like [item]Shattered Sun Pendant of Might[/item] (assuming not exalted) the chain is vastly superior due to the bv or at least thats my deduction.

The next trade off I wanted to touch on was pants.

Unwavering Legguards - Item - World of Warcraft
Legplates of Unending Fury - Item - World of Warcraft
Vengeful Gladiator's Plate Legguards - Item - World of Warcraft

Assuming all are socketed with +10 strength for AP and BV

Unwavering = 39 BV + 56 Strength
Unending Fury = 72 strength
Vengeful = 51 strenght

I know its not quite that simple since they have other stats on the legs, offensive stats being.

Unwavering = none
Unending Fury = 25 hit and 43 haste
Vengeful = 47 crit 12 hit 12 pen

And defensive stats being

Unwavering = 73 stam 22 def 30 block rating
Unending Fury = 48 Stam
Vengeful = 22 resil 70 stam

I wind up having no idea if its worth taking gear with BV on it which tends to mean it has other defensive tank orientated stats on it as well.

I'm sure i'm made loads of poor assumptions and errors but i really just wanted to open it up to discussion and see what people thought about gearing for grinding/leveling as protection spec.

Last edited by Evelaula; 09-23-2008 at 06:29 PM..
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  #2  
Old 09-22-2008, 10:54 AM
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I've been playing around with this as well on the PTR, since I have a full set of Season 4 as well as a decent t5 ish tanking set. What I've found to be a great balance is that I currently wear the entire "right side" of my equipment as tanking gear, and my "left side" of my char pane with DPS gear (minus the helm, needed the defense), and I've remained uncrittable, kept a "semi decent" avoidance, and have 871 shield block value WITHOUT the Autoblocker. (this is using the new talent 400 armor = 3 str as well). So far it's working for me, but I'll play with it some more tonight and see if I can better optimize.
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Old 09-22-2008, 12:54 PM
Rosnops
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I've actually cracked out excel and am running the numbers comparing the two which i'll post once i get home from the airport today!
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Old 09-22-2008, 02:24 PM
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sweet!
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Old 09-22-2008, 02:39 PM
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I'll be watching this slot. I've neglected pvp (like many tanks I imagine) but it looks to me like the easily aquired S2 gear is going to make better pieces to swap in for a threat set once patch 3.x goes live.
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Old 09-23-2008, 04:08 AM
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Alright everyone. Firstly before starting big kudos to Moredps from The Underbog, had to borrow his mage Intellect to help with figuring out sword and board proc rates.

I've spent several hours with this trying to figure out whats going on. Its a pretty basic spreadsheet so I'll detail some of the limitations and assumptions which i've made for the sake of pure simplicity.

Assumptions

Assumes base stats (strength) of a level 70 Tauren warrior.
Assumes character talent points are as such: Talent Spec
Assumes the character has no rage limitations
Assumes a rotation of Shield Slam -> Dev -> Dev -> Dev (more on this later.
Attacks are unable to miss, be dodged, parried or blocked.
Attacks are unable to be critical hits.
Assumes a ping of zero
Assumes a perfect rotation.
Assumes all devastates with 5 sunders already applied.

Fights were calculated over 60 seconds and with 40 global cooldowns.

Spreadsheet is designed to compared identical item point values of Strength and block value.

1 Block Value = .65 Item Mod Point
1 Strength = 1 Item Mod Point.

All calculations are made with a 100 DPS 2.0 speed weapon, and 100 BV shield.

Sword and Board Proc Usefulness Rate

This was a bit of a time waster. As the model called for a rotation of Shield Slam -> Dev -> Dev -> Dev, the usefulness of sword and board procs varied greatly on which of the devastates it proced on. A proc occurring on the first devastate netted a 3 second reduction in the shield slam cool down while a proc on the second or third devastate yielded a 1.5 or 0 second reduction respectively.

Its not as simple as it sounds to calculate the number of Shield slams and devastates in 60 seconds or 40 global cool down cycles.

Moredps created a rough program to run 10,000 sample sizes and determine the numbers of devastates and shield slams that would fit into this 40 global cool down time period. After several runs it was determined that the numbers of devastates and shield slams was

12.5 Shield slams and
27.5 Devastates

or that Sword and board was in effect giving us 2.5 free shield slams per 60 second/40 global cooldown cycle.

This was what was used in the spread sheet calculations.

The Spreadsheet

Pretty crude google documents spreadsheet. Each ability is examined in realation to Shield Block Value only, Strength and a control. or nil situation.

I'd appreciate it if someone else familar with the subject could look over the numbers and check things but i'm fairly confident its correct.

***Spreadsheet***

What it means

The current values set are 100 strength and 153.8 block value (equal item level)

Scrolled right down to the bottom you should see


Code:
			Global Cooldowns	Shield slam	Devastate	Auto swing	Total Damage	 DPS		
Damage Control			40		  8,584		  12,320	 4,799	  	  25,702	428.37
Damage Block Value		40		  11,333	  12,320	 4,799		  28,451	474.19
Damage Strength only		40		  9,477	  	  12,838	 5,742		  28,057	467.62
Damage control is the the damage of everything without the added stats. Damage block value is with the 153.8 points of block value added in, and finally damage Strength only is with the 100 strength added in.

So looking at this portion of the spreadsheet stacking the same item mod points of pure block value resulted in higher dps. Yes I was surprised too initially until I thought about it some more and looked at the limitations of this simulated that I stated earlier.

The contributions to Devastate and Auto Swing from attack power are very low. And as strength delivers significantly less block value than pure block value its dps IS lower than that of the pure block value.

However this is a theoretical situation!

In practice.

We cant guarantee the perfect rotation. This will effect the ratio of shield slams to devastates. The same apply's with latency, and user error ie recognising the sword and board proc and reacting with shield slam.

Use of spells. I dont expect anyone to be using only devastate and shield slam. I'm fully expecting to be using Shockwave and concussive blow every single time they are up. Not to mention revenge if I can.

These three abilities all scale with attack power, Shock wave and concussive blow particularly well. If we were to include these in the calculations the damage gained from the greatly out weighs the loss off firstly global cooldowns spent in devastate and the damage advantage Shield block value has over strength.

Rage at the start of the fight is a big one too. We cant ever just open with a shield slam straight off the bat unless we are carrying over rage from a previous fight, or waiting for bloodrage to reach an acceptable level.

Rage Generation


Attack power pays great dividends in terms of the rage we can generate due to white hits. This alone allows us to dump significantly more rage into say, heroic strike which thanks to incite has a good crit rate and thus good potential damage output.

Damage Shield


This is one ability which is definitely in favour of pure block value stacking, it was well beyond the scope of the spreadsheet to find out by how much, and what proportion of damage would be attribuitable to it as that would require char and mob level, dodge/miss/parry/block hit rating/expertise to all be accounted for.

It is however only 20% so I feel confident in saying that the other positives for stacking strength outweigh the positive that damage shield provides unless you are aiming for only aoe grinding. And that brings us onto another though of true aoe tanking.

Play style


I'm unable to say how valid true aoe tanking will be, nor do I have any actual proof of my theory. But I'd say that with enough mobs, block value becomes better than strength with everything taken into consideration as it provides more mitigation through block. More outgoing damage through damage shield and obviously bigger shield slams to the face.

Ease of Gearing

This points an interesting one. Gear which has high block value tends to have little to no other useful DPS stats. Gear with strength all over it tends to have significantly more.

Yes this will change with the 3.0 updates and epic gear re-balancing however its still on a completely different scale and level. Once again its beyond me to investigate the effect of having defensive stats on our gear like Block Rating, dodge, parry defense. Compared to offensive states like Crit, Hit, Expertise, Armor pen.

As such i'm going to attempt to gear myself in a way which maximises the slots and available choices i have. For example, If I have to chose between a low iLevel DPS chest or a Higher iLevel Tank chest with lots of block value and socketing potential then until someone has some real numbers/stats about how this affects leveling speed it might make sense to take the higher item level for the added survivability and synergy with some of our talents ie critical block.

Conclusion

In the limited tests, pure block value was the more desirable stat for a perfect SS -> Dev -> Dev ->dev rotation. In practice due to a number of reasons as listed above I believe stacking straight strength to be the better option all around.

Feedback and comments please!

Last edited by Evelaula; 09-23-2008 at 01:18 PM..
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  #7  
Old 09-23-2008, 05:01 AM
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Some really great info here - I think that your conclusions validate Kaz's comment on using a mix of DPS and Tank gear, and not going purely one way or the other. All of your caveats at the end of your post seem to validate this for me.

I will have to play around on the PTR more, but without taking a look at all of the math, to me it would make sense that the re-itemization of our gear for 3.0 tanking would produce tank gear that is synergistic with the new talents. DPS gear may be re-itemized away from optimal prot usage, or not - until we see the final numbers on 3.0 prot dps abilities and talents, I'm feeling the "wait and see" game.
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Old 09-23-2008, 12:42 PM
Rosnops
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Some really great info here - I think that your conclusions validate Kaz's comment on using a mix of DPS and Tank gear, and not going purely one way or the other. All of your caveats at the end of your post seem to validate this for me.

I will have to play around on the PTR more, but without taking a look at all of the math, to me it would make sense that the re-itemization of our gear for 3.0 tanking would produce tank gear that is synergistic with the new talents. DPS gear may be re-itemized away from optimal prot usage, or not - until we see the final numbers on 3.0 prot dps abilities and talents, I'm feeling the "wait and see" game.
Yep, I am going to have a look at the differnt set of pants in more detail with regard to the maths at some point and see how the numbers work out. But its really hard to know what contribution We get from defense or dodge.

Part of me wants to say that gearing for pure dps should be the best with the fact mobs will die the fastest etc but Its a rather complicated subject.
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  #9  
Old 09-24-2008, 03:52 AM
Rosnops
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Update number 3.

I've run the pants i spoke off from my first post through the spread sheet.

[item]Bloodthirster's Wargreaves[/item]
[item]Unwavering Legguards[/item]
[item] Legplates of Unending Fury[/item]

All sockets are filled with +10 strength gems for the calculation.

Code:
			  DPS	      DPS Increase
Base without pants	 428.37

Bloodthirster's		 458.2 		29.83
Unwavering Legguards	 461.97		33.6
Unending Fury		 456.63		28.26
Oddly enough the Unwavering legguards come quite far ahead.

I'm too tired to consider what this means etc so i'll leave that for tommorow.
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  #10  
Old 09-24-2008, 09:11 AM
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Not looked into this too much but has any potential doubling of shield slam damage been calculated in due to the percentage of time that shield block is up?

With no talents, rage not being an issue and optimimum button pressing you'll have 10 out of every 60 seconds with double the shield block value, unless I've missed something.

Averaged out across a minute you should be getting an extra 6th of your shield slam damage through normal skill usage which you can't add to the strength side of the calculation.

On the other side of things the new strength to armour talent could swing things the other way. Then again talents which scale well with % changes to shield slam damage or reduction of cool down on shield block will have an effect and it becomes a real nightmare to model but I get the feeling SBV could be the way to go.
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Old 09-24-2008, 01:11 PM
Rosnops
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Yea it would be a real nightmare to model. Shield block would affect both strength and pure block value, just pure block value to a greater extent. Strength from armor talent effects stacking strength and stacking block value in the same way so nill effect.

I'm still convinced that Strength is better simply for rage gain. Whit hits hitting for significantly more leads to more rage which means more heroic strikes and other attacks.
Revenge is a huge card unaccounted for. As are shock wave and concussion blow.
Everything one of these abilities is used, it reduces the effectiveness of sword and board procs reducing shield slams damage. Not to mention that they scale well with strength and quickly over haul any gap block value has gained.
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  #12  
Old 09-24-2008, 04:12 PM
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i think im going to wear a bv set gemmed for hit/expertise(green wotlk gems)
then switch my main gear set over to 16 defence gems for naxx until im over cap and replace with stam as needed
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  #13  
Old 10-09-2008, 08:09 AM
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umm

1 strength = 2 attack power, not 1

10 strength would give you 20 attack power and 5 SBV.
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  #14  
Old 10-09-2008, 09:44 AM
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One also needs to think about this in reverse in my eyes.

Rage comes from getting hit. It may turn out to be more effective to reduce dodge & parry to ensure a higher rage input.

By leaving out Anticipation & Deflection, you increase your damage taken at level 70 where anyone in at least kara/badge gear is grossly overgeared for level grinding. It means you can get every skill under the sun from the Prot tree that will help you level as well as picking up Armored/Cruelty. I have left 2 points free for either Imp Revenge or Imp Disarm (some folks hate the stun, but if you plan on pulling entire packs of mobs, it is great to have the extra interrupt when you kill casters first).

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/warrior/talents2.html?tal=00000000000000000000000000000030 50000000000000000000000000533010252030125203301133 21


As long as you maintain defense at the uncrit level, everything else should be done for SBV/STR & Block Rating %. The more you often you block, the less damage you take coupled with damage shield being as high as possible (less dodge/miss/parry).

Logically as you level, you simply pick up the dodge/parry 5% (10 points) but depending on gear effectiveness, you might still find rage shortages and not want to spend the talent points. Looking through the gear list posts, there really doesn't seem to be much beyond a shield of interest until about level 77.

DPS levels are only sustained by rage. No point looking at unlimited rage scenarios when the reality is you need to pull 5+ mobs at once to get enough rage to not fall asleep ...

Vigilance & Safeguard are nice, but we are talking about getting to 80, not being 80. From everything I have read so far, the threat coming in is by far well enough ahead that these two are in the lvl 80 raiding handy
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Old 10-11-2008, 08:50 AM
UI Creator
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Heres the set I have right now for Wrath lvln as prot 1h + Shield.

Head - [item]warbringer greathelm[/item]
Enchant - +10 Def / +10 Stam / + 15 SBV (Old ZG Chant)
Meta - +10 Def / +10% SBV
Gem - + 10 AP / +5 Crit

Neck - [item]Gaurdian's Pendant of Triumph[/item]
Gem - +8 STR

Shoulder - [item]Destroyer Shoulderguards[/item]
Enchant - +15 Dodge / + 10 Def
Gem - +15 Stam
Gem - + 15 Stam

Back -[item]Farstrider Defender's Cloak[/item]
Enchant - +120 Armor

Chest -[item]chestplate of stoicism[/item]
Enchant - +150HP
Gem- +15 Stam

Bracer -[item]vambracers of courage[/item]
Enchant - +12 STR
Gem - +10 STR

Gloves -[item]iron gauntlets of the maiden[/item]
Enchant - +15 STR
Gem - +8 STR
Gem - +8 STR

Belt -[item]red belt of battle[/item]
Gem - +10 STR
Gem - +10 STR

Legs -[item]unwavering legguards[/item]
Enchant - +50 AP / +12 Crit
Gem - +8 STR
Gem - +8 STR
Gem - +8 STR

Feet -[item]jungle stompers[/item]
Enchant - +9 Stam / Minor Run Speed
Gem - +15 Stam

Ring 1 -[item]signet of the last defender[/item]

Ring 2 -[item]vindicator's band of triumph[/item]

Trinket 1 -[item]coren's lucky coin[/item]

Trinket 2 -[item]gnomeregan auto-blocker 600[/item]

Wepon -[item]Fool's Bane[/item]
Enchant - Deathfrost
Gem - +8 STR

Shield -[item]Bulwark of the Amani Empire[/item]
Enchant - Felsteel Shield Spike
Gem - +10 STR

Ranged -[item]Gyro-balanced Khorium Destroyer[/item]
Enchant - Scope + 10 Damage
Gem - +5 Def / + 7 Stam

----------------------------------------------------------

Ok so clearly I need to get a differant ranged wepon. Then once we stop raiding BC content, I will change all my gems to + 10 STR and put +6 stat on my chest. Probably going with Agi enchants on the cloak and boots too.

Anyone have any suggestions on how to modify this further?

EDIT* I just got a new enchant for the leggs and a upgraded gem for the bracers.

Last edited by Bodasafa; 10-11-2008 at 09:40 AM..
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