[Ciderhelm]

Sitting in the drafts forum for two weeks has been a multi-page guide on loot systems. I just haven't felt comfortable finishing it because it lays some pretty hefty criticisms that may be unwarranted -- especially on Loot Council.

There are a hundred different loot systems in this game. I'll share our own loot system -- the one we found most effective in my last guild -- in the coming days. You may be surprised just how spartan it was. For now, I'll just post the introduction to this guide, and let you guys expand, discuss, or disagree.

* * * * *


The following is written to cover item distribution and currency as they relate to raiding guild management. The principles covered here will be valuable to anyone running a guild which involves endgame content.


What Is Guild Item Distribution
There are many different item distribution systems available to new and established guilds. These are most often seen in a currency-based system, or DKP, or a decision-based system, or Loot Council.

DKP is a generic term for currency-based guild management. The name, Dragon Kill Points, stems from an item management system created by Afterlife (Cenarius) which was a heavy-weight guild in Everquest.

Today, nearly any loot system that involves purchasing items is called DKP, though they often share little similarity beyond the name. Understand that -- unless specifically stated -- this article refers to the generic term, not to a specific ruleset.


Theory of Guild Loot Distribution
Loot distribution is not about fairness; it is about incentive. Secondarily, it is about strategic progression.

To take that a step further -- any system with a Loot Council, any system with an item priority, and any system with an item cost, is unfair. Any system with a complex ruleset is unfair.

Why? Because you are setting arbitrary values and restrictions based on an opinion of what is the right course for your guild. These values and restrictions will not correlate to the worth an item may have to individual players.

For instance, a Druid may believe a staff is worth three weeks of her work, while a Mage may believe the same staff is only worth one week of his work; many loot systems, whether based on class priority or another arbitrary reason, may award the staff to the Mage over the Druid, even if both can afford the item. This is often good for the guild, especially newer guilds where players may not fully understand the impact of loot on their raid; it is not fair.

Consider also that many loot systems will not compensate people for work they do outside of a traditional raid setting. For instance, if a players attend optional raids or spend a large amount of time farming flask materials for the guild, they are often not rewarded for their work.

That decision is often made by guilds who do not want to discourage people who work long hours during the day or cannot be available on weekends. While in many situations it can be helpful to not reward people for necessary work -- to satisfy the people who cannot or do not want to do extra work on behalf of the guild -- do not be under any illusions that it is fair.

Once you accept that nearly any system you create will have an inherent unfairness you will be able to best focus on the real goal of your loot system -- incentive.



Incentivizing Your DKP
In a perfect world, everyone would raid and perform every function of the guild without reward. Raiders would never raid for loot, they would always have consumables, and they would always show up on time. The most flawed systems and the least stable guilds have been built out of this philosophy.

What should happen and what does happen are two very different things. While, yes, most raiders do not care about loot, it is also not criminal to care about the advancement of your character in a game based on that premise. Drama will start when people get the feeling they are being treated poorly in regards to their efforts, no matter how honorable the players or how noble the intention.

One of the unique advantages to a currency-based system is the ability to use arbitrary measures to increase guild productivity. In other words, you can encourage people to farm more materials, show up for optional raids, or complete other tasks on behalf of the guild by awarding them with DKP.


Showing Up & Ending On Time
One of the most practical uses for using DKP as an incentive is by providing a reward for people who show up on time. While certainly not necessary nor recommended for every guild, it can be very useful for guilds struggling with starting on-time or retaining players through the end of scheduled raids.


Being Available Outside Instance
Another common use for DKP is to reward people who are not participating in a raid but are on-call and ready to zone in. This allows greater flexibility in asking guild raiders to step out of raids when dealing with encounters that require strict class balancing.

Rewarding players who are ready to zone in and are waiting at the raid zone with full -- not partial -- DKP is the best way to reduce poor attitudes from raiders who cannot participate in a raid.

However, some active raiders will take offense to players consistently abusing this system to acquire DKP without putting in the effort; solving this cannot be handled in the context of a loot system. You need to make sure you have a roster of raiders who respect the contributions of each other and have shown a propensity to work towards the goal, not themselves.


Reward Personal & Group Farming
To the degree you can afford to make this decision in your guild -- understanding that it may cause issues with some players -- it is a good idea to reward efforts made by people outside of raid time. After all, they are going above and beyond in making sure your guild continues to be able to raid, both in terms of consumables and gearing.

A good way of handling this is through an in-depth tally of your guild bank through spreadsheets, mods, or Notepad. By observing what you have and determining what you need for progression through upcoming content (Primals to help produce Resistance gear for Hydross or Solarian, for instance), you can effectively come up with priorities on materials.

Unfortunately, due to the way Blizzard has structured the professions, you will be unable to serve all professions equally. For instance, Engineering produces very little that is extremely helpful to raiding, whereas Herbalism and Alchemy often have a large impact on progression.

To solve this, when listing items, be aware of average Auction House prices on your server and attempt to keep your own DKP rewards in line with those prices -- this will allow members of any profession to trade gold for necessary guild items via the open market.


First Boss Kill & No-Loot Reward
Another common and helpful place to reward DKP is on nights that are oriented towards killing a boss. Taking a two-pronged approach can be helpful.

First, you want to reward people for being at raids where there is no expectation of loot. This is often the biggest hurdle for guilds, so being flexible and offering 1.5x or sometimes 2x the normal per-hour or per-night points to raiders can help kick people into gear. There is certainly nothing wrong with this method, either -- remember, especially with a new guild, your most valuable and dedicated raiders are showing up with no expectation of loot.

Second, reward people for killing a boss. This motivates people to finish the encounter and can help your raiders push each other towards excellence. I can't count the number of times I have heard -- from amazing raiders -- that we should go one more time to get the First Boss Kill DKP.


No-Show DKP
Don't have enough for a raid? Don't take it out on the players who did show up. Reward them well.


The above examples are not necessary nor are they the only good examples of incentivizing your DKP system. Any guild goal, even a guild movie, can be incentivized.

It's your guild, your goals -- use your system to support it.

[Anaea]

Once you accept that nearly any system you create will have an inherent unfairness you will be able to best focus on the real goal of your loot system -- incentive.

This should be the starting point for any guild looking at loot distribution systems, and it's really great that you get to it so early in your post. Too many guilds implement something because "the other guys use that" rather than thinking about their own situation.

When we were examining 25-man loot systems, we started with one question: what do we want the loot system to accomplish? Then we asked, are there better ways to accomplish this?

For instance, one of the things we were looking at originally was a loot system that would "reward" attendance. But the more we teased out the repercussions of that kind of a move (new raiders being shut out of loot, inflation, etc.) the more we realized that, for our casual-progressive model, loot distribution was by far too kludgy a tool to use for this task - instead, we're looking at how we run raids, and "raider" type ranks for this purpose.

Similarly, we thought about having a system that would reward those things like coming with pots, coming repaired, etc. But then, again, we decided that for us it would be much less cumbersome to make those baseline requirements for raid invites rather than try to use random item drops as incentive for them. We just don't raid often enough for that kind of a system to be an effective motivator.

In the end, we decided that all we wanted the loot system to accomplish was to distribute gear relatively evenly among the raid in a transparent fashion. That foundation made our choices much easier going forward.


::edited to include some more thoughts::

[Paruhdox]

There is a large misconception sometimes when it comes too loot. No matter what the system, people expect it to be fair but that will never be the case. There is a hierarchy in the guild structure and the people that set the most finite of rules for loot still make the system they want fair or not.

Our guild uses a loot council and the reason we do it is because we base the loot we give out, on the "benifit" to the guild.

I just want to explain what our system attempts to achieve and it does do a fairly accurate job. Our system is based off a few things:

1. Who would benifit most from the item?

2. If this person benifits the most, is he active enough and does he put the time in to deserve it? (this does not mean that people without 100% attendance don't get loot, it just means that they wont get as much.)

3. The last thing we look at is how much loot has this person taken already? and make sure that loot is being distributed fairly.

There are a few exceptions to this rule, one being the main tank. He/I will take any loot we can use. This isnt because we are greedy, but because the guild benifits more for every piece of gear we have. This does put tanks on the spot sometimes, but it is a role some people chose. The tank that gets the loot also probably maintains a high 99%-100% attendance.

Two reasons I personally am a fan of this system:

1. It weeds out the people that raid for JUST epics, the people who log on for farm nights and not progression nights. Often these people get very aggitated when they get no loot because all they do is show up for old content and leave.

This is not to say people do not raid for just loot, and some people do both. They raid for loot but attend progression nights, they earn their loot.

2. This system make it the easy to complete new encounters. In my opinion from past experiences this systems causes faster progression which in the end gets you more epics. The people who do want to progress and just log on for farm content are ususally to dim to realize that PROGRESSION = more dead bosses = more dead bosses = more purples.

[nethervoid]

I agree with incentivising 'good behavior', but the problem you create is that of inflation. Possibly one way around this inflation, when using a zero sum DKP system as many guilds do to kill inflation, is to artificially inflate the member's DKP modifier for the night. What I mean is this:

For ease of use, let's assume a 5 man raid. Before the raid begins, the following DKP balances are observed:

Frank: 50 DKP
James: 35 DKP
Sally: 80 DKP
Laura: 100 DKP
Paula: -20 DKP

You kill a boss, and 2 epics drop. Management has decided a long time ago that each piece of loot which is looted by a raider is worth 20 DKP, so both pieces are looted (loot that rots/is sharded is worth zero since nobody spent any DKP on the item). Here's the following scenario in a strait up zero sum DKP system:

Sally and James loot an item. Sally and James are debted 20 DKP each, totalling 40 DKP spent. This is redistributed to all other non-looting raiders evenly. 40/3 = 13.3 respectively. The following post-kill balances are observed:

Frank: 50 + 13.3 = 63.3 DKP
James: 35 - 20 = 15 DKP
Sally: 80 - 20 = 60 DKP
Laura: 100 + 13.3 = 113.3 DKP
Paula: -20 + 13.3 = -6.7 DKP

In this system, if you award more DKP for those who were on time to the raid while no DKP was spent at that point of the raid, you will see inflation. This is obvious.

Now instead you could incentivize arriving on time or any other non-boss kill behavior by adjusting the individuals 'weight' on any DKP transactions. For example, arriving on time might increase a members 'weight' by 100%, meaning they get twice as much incremental DKP on any transaction than a member who was late. Observe the result if Frank, James, and Sally were on time for the raid, while Laura and Paula were late:

You kill a boss, two epics drop, and are worth 20 DKP each. Sally and James loot an item. Sally and James are debted 20 DKP each totally 40 total DKP spent. This is redistributed to all other non-looting raiders evenly. 40 / (2 raiders (Frank) + 1 (Laura) + 1 (Paula)) = 40/4 = 10. The following post-kill balances are observed:

Frank: 50 + 2(10) = 70 DKP [observe Franks increased weight - He got double the kill's value]
James: 35 - 20 = 15 DKP [James was on time, but looted instead of gaining - His DKP is not affected by the increased weight from being on time]
Sally: 80 - 20 = 60 DKP [Same as James]
Laura: 100 + 1(10) = 110 DKP [Laura was late, therefore only receives the normal DKP value]
Paula: -20 + 1(10) = -10 DKP [Same as Laura]

Here we can see Frank was given the bonus for being on time, but the overall balance of DKP stayed the same. No inflation was observed.

Now this makes the calculation of DKP more difficult, but still allows management to offer non-kill incentives. If you have a DKP calculator, IMO this returns great investment on time spent. You can put these weight modifiers in to your calculations any time DKP is transacted, and the calculator does the work.

[Joanadark]

I just haven't felt comfortable finishing it because it lays some pretty hefty criticisms that may be unwarranted -- especially on Loot Council.

lol....


problem I'm finding with loot council is that it's incredibly fair...until it isn't.

Also, more than any other system, tends to encounter problems with degenerating arguements over who something is "best" for...

[muulan]

I participate in our loot council and will have to admit there have been cases when I've disagreed with the outcome. However I still solidly believe in the model because the council are usually hardcore players who understand the game mechanics and are knowledgeable about itemization. They follow a very clear goal when assigning loot and generally have the guilds interest in mind. Fairness is very subjective Joanadark, and I will go into it more later. First, we award based on these criteria:

Attendance > Skill > Gear issues

Because our goal with loot distribution is to push progression, we focus on attendance first. What good will that purple do if its not present when we are doing our learning runs? Heres a case and point:

Player A is 2x skilled as player B (DPS, healing, tanking etc)
Player A = 50% attendance
Player B = 100% attendance

The fact is player B is always there, contributing to the guild in raids and pushing progression wearing those purples. Player A might put those same purples to better use, except he doesn't get to use them half the time so they are in effect useLESS as far as the guild is concerned half the time. This doesn't mean Player A never gets loot. I think alot of opponents of loot council make it sound like once an item drops and Player B gets it Player A will never see the item again. If Player A actually plays he'll get it in time in another raid.

I am tired of the single-player game attitude that so many people bring to WoW. Sure your tired from work and just wana come on to have fun. They become incensed at the audacity of their fellow raiders daring to infringe on their "fun time". But what obligates the other 9 people (or 24) to that end? Nothing really, we all pay our 15$ to enjoy this game. Every would-be-raider should realize that raiding is inherently a group endeavor; one cannot achieve success on such levels (even for most RL activities) through just individual effort. However, once you enter a group environment, the importance of individual fun is greatly diminished. Concessions of all sorts is a requirement for success in groups as well as the success of the group. Don't like it? Don't be trying to get purples then. Blizzard designed this game around group content, the greatest rewards go to those who are able and willing to cooperate (ie make sacrifices).

Fairness:
Now if you decide that group content is for you, then I would argue that its perfectly fair for the hardcore people to get first dibs on loot (note first dibs, not hogging all the loot like some would portray it). In most cases hardcore players value their casual counterparts and hope that they are having fun raiding with them. But let it be known that the "right" of casual players to have fun is not in any way an obligation of the guild or its hardcore players. I assume "having fun" means being first to get loot because thats the only time casuals complain. As an example I keep hearing from casuals:

"that [item] is so mine"
"well I need [item]..."
"[boss] is so gonna drop my [item] tonight"

Sure loot talk goes on all the time. But when someone isn't there 100% of the time and use possessives endlessly, I know exactly whats going on. It may be that they value the loot more because they aren't there all the time to get it and its a big deal when something they want does drop since (being a much rarer event). But if they raided more it won't be such a big deal now would it. Can't do that? I totally understand, RL obligations come first. But then its your problem, not the guild's. The guild is not here for ME to have fun, not here for ME to get loot, not here for ME. All of the guildies are here for the guild and its progression. YOU are part of the guild and benefits indirectly, but YOU are not THE guild. Now guilds strive for every member to have fun and a great time, but be aware guilds aren't here to for your pleasure at the expense of everything else (neither should it be for the GM, although some guilds operate differently).

People tout Zero-Sum-DKP as the fairest system. I believe thats totally wrong. It is actually the most unfair, distributing the extra effort individuals make towards the guild and benefiting those who make the least. If I make no effort at all in a zero DKP system I stand to gain the most. I'll wait for my guild to do all the learning runs on gruul, gain DKP in kara farm, and then come in on down night to be the first to get loot. Those who make the most effort will in turn stand to "gain" the least. What you put into a guild is what you get out of it. Casuals think they deserve so much just because they came to the run, that is not how raiding works right now and probably will never be how it works. Having to wait in line for loot is not so bad. I wait all the time for tank loot even though I MT for the guild (GM's the other MT). I know that eventually it'll be my turn and then the next guy's after. Being in second or third is better than not getting in at all. Sure you can jump guilds constantly, skip the learning runs and go to a progressed guild whenever your pretty much geared up. Just gotta hope the new guild runs zero-sum is all lol.

[Clifford]

We use a fairly simple /roll system that involves levels of priority and it works really well. Our objective is to reward people that raid often but still allow those that don't raid often a chance to win.

Level 1
Class > all. We use wow-loot.com class priorities.
Level 2
Rank 1 > Rank 2 > Rank 3.
- Rank 1 (full members that raid often)
- Rank 2 (full members that used to raid often but stopped and recently started again)
- Rank 3 (people that don't raid often or are new to the guild)
- Ranks are determined by the officers.

[Rak]

Your argument that a player will always see the item again is very, very wrong. There are countless items that have only ever dropped for my guilds once, or never at all, while farming the raids for 1-2 years. It's part of the game.

[Wilson]

Back in the day..on my UD warrior there was something called Loot Council where Raid Leader and GM and CLs decide who gets which

It worked good I was CL on my UD and I used to make a fuss about Overlord ring
if memory serves me right hehe that one off ZG

[nethervoid]

Source: muulan People tout Zero-Sum-DKP as the fairest system. I believe thats totally wrong. It is actually the most unfair, distributing the extra effort individuals make towards the guild and benefiting those who make the least. If I make no effort at all in a zero DKP system I stand to gain the most. I'll wait for my guild to do all the learning runs on gruul, gain DKP in kara farm, and then come in on down night to be the first to get loot. Those who make the most effort will in turn stand to "gain" the least. What you put into a guild is what you get out of it. Casuals think they deserve so much just because they came to the run, that is not how raiding works right now and probably will never be how it works. Having to wait in line for loot is not so bad. I wait all the time for tank loot even though I MT for the guild (GM's the other MT). I know that eventually it'll be my turn and then the next guy's after. Being in second or third is better than not getting in at all. Sure you can jump guilds constantly, skip the learning runs and go to a progressed guild whenever your pretty much geared up. Just gotta hope the new guild runs zero-sum is all lol.

This is a good point, and something I hadn't thought of before. Raid nights that end in wipe after wipe, costing gold with no loot gained, garner no DKP from a zero sum system; while the off night Kara farm would. Maybe the weighting system I described above could help this out? Maybe you could also have a multiplier gained incrementally by the number of progression raids you attended, regardless if loot dropped or not?

Adjustments seem to be needed again, although every adjustment complicates the system further even though it also brings the system closer to being the most fair of all.

Gah.

[Crimsonstorm]

While this isnt exactly what we do, it seems like it would be the best to me:

Bosses are separated into: Progression bosses (never killed before), Hard bosses (killed a couple times but not reliably, and its a struggle), and Farm bosses (not many wipes, you know its going to die). Once a boss is killed once it goes from progression to hard, after a couple more kills its farm.


DKP given is something like:

~4 for being on time and staying until the end of the raid.
1 per hour of the raid.

1 per valid ATTEMPT on a progression boss (not mispulls) + 2 if Killed
2 per Kill of a hard boss.
no bonus for farm bosses.


Lets say you have a 4 hour raid.
If its a learning raid with 8 valid attempts on a progression boss: 16 dkp
If its a run against a couple hard bosses: 12 dkp
Farm boss run: 8 dkp


This rewards more dkp for progression attempts. This is to counteract the fact that progression attempts are much more painful in terms of wiping, repair bills, and lack of loot generated. The farm boss run offers way more opportunities to spend that dkp. This way people dont just build dkp doing farm runs and then win all the loot once something is downed. The peopel doing the progression stuff get the loot first, and then the others get it afterwards.



Waitlisters would get 4 for being on time, and 1 per hour they stay available.

[Siegetank]

Hey, you know, thats a pretty solid system. I may have to incorporate that into my guilds DKP system once we get there. I was in a previous guild where farm days where amazing attendance, but progression days were, well, not so good.

Promoting progression days through more DKP is simple, yet amazing IMO.
Dont know why it wasnt thought of earlier in my previous guilds.

Thanks for putting this down. Its a great system.

[Rak]

What we did when we wiped on twin emps for two weeks straight was award bonus DKP for the first two times we got their life to a certain percentage. Like 50%, 25%, and 0%. The first two attempts/kills that got them to those percentages gave us a lot of bonus DKP, since we had spent so much time wiping.
If you give DKP based on nothing but attempts, it could be possible for a lame person to not try very hard so he can keep getting that DKP as you fail. In an ideal world, your guild wouldn't have people like that... but I think most do =/

[Sangi]

I have a post a bit down thread here about this same issue and one on another board. My guild is a big mix of very casual players, light raiders and some retired 5-6 day a week raiders. We are trying to come up with a system that encourages participation in our limited raid schedule. Because of this we want to reward preparedness, progression and attendance.

I got a lot of standard DKP replies on my other thread. We would prefer not to use it due to the fact that new players never really get a chance in that system. Zero-Sum doesn't offer any wiggle room for rewarding anything outside of the loot that drops.

The most interesting one to me was EPGP, Earned Points Gear Points. It is a ratio based system. You track points earned (Earned Points) for raiding, showing up on time, wipes on progression bosses, stepping out for someone else to come in, donating 300 flasks to the bank. You track points for gear recieved (Gear Points) seperately. Each player then has a ratio of EP to GP. The ratios are then used in place of the amount of DKP you would have. The people with the larger ratio would have first choice on items. When they get a piece of loot their ratio goes down. Decay is done to both points, but mathematically this doesn't reduce your ratio. I believe that this is done to make current actions worth more than past actions.

I'm still trying to find some down sides to the EPGP system other than the intense amount of math involved. If any one sees some I would love to know. The benefits I see are basically tracking rewards and spending separately. Which allows you to assign values to things other than just raiding and loot directly.

[nethervoid]

The only problems with the systems mentioned on this page are inflation. The direct down side to inflation is it becomes very hard for new members to ever get loot.

I wouldn't even start to tweak anything but a zero sum system. It is really too much work to try and keep a system balanced where actual purchase power is given out for anything other than a loot drop. You can give out potential for purchase power, but not actual purchase power. Even if you try to balance this by making an artificial decay system, the decay rate would have to be finely tuned to keep the overall purchace power of the guild static at all times, which would beg the question, why not just use zero sum? It would be more trouble than it's worth to try and force a non-static system into a static mold.

I know it seems egotistical, but I think the multiplier system is probably your best bet. You are rewarding non-loot situations (on-time, progression, etc) with purchase potential, not actual purchase power. Once the loot finally drops, the person can cash in on those IOUs if you will through the increased multiplier. The fine points of the multiplier system is balancing how much multiplier points you give out per incentivised practice. Being on-time might be worth +0.1 multiplier, while a progression attempt might be worth +0.2. It would all depend on how fast someone could rack up multiplier points.

Also remember the multiplier doesn't just increase the potential purchase power of the member who picks up the multiplier, it also basically decreases everyone else's potential at the same time. This is because you are basically taking DKP away from average joe (AJ), and giving it to joe superstar (JS). Instead of AJ and JS both getting say 10 DKP when an item is looted, JS might have a multiplier which gives him 12 while AJ is now getting 8, because in zero sum to give to one you must take from another, just like how someone's DKP spent on looting is given to those not looting.

The argument you will have on your hands from AJ is 'You're giving away too much for non-kills'. The ones who are not getting the bonus are always going to bitch. That's just the way it is. Early on I explained to my members that people who do the work of the guild or make the officer's lives easier by showing up on time, etc, automatically get a bigger share of the rewards of that work because they put in a greater investment than those who do not. That's life people. Give more; get more. But you have to explain that up front and to every potential recruit from the start. Set their expectations, so you can avoid the drama of 'Boo hoo! Me me me!' lol

Reap what you sow. It can't be wrong! It's in the Bible! lol

[Satrina]

I implemented our DKP almost exactly as Crimsonstorm laid it out, just with higher numbers. I'm lazy, so I wrote an addon that handles loot bidding, and bases item point cost based on the item level, modified by slot. Since item costs are in the 70-130 range for tier4 loot, the point awards need to support that economy.

There are a few gotchas with the system:

1) It's open-ended, and so is subject to inflation as Nethervoid notes.
2) Tailored sets really mess things up. Nobody wants tier 4 cloth, so we have casters with a lot of points waiting for the tier 5 drops. This makes the inflation a bit worse, and lopsided to casters. I hate Blizzard so much because of the tailored sets.
3) You have to carefully balance how many points you give per hour/per kill/etc. Too little and nobody bids on anything but real upgrades. Too many and the system floods. You need to find the point where people don't mind picking up a slight upgrade, or buying a situational piece of loot.

The comment about new members not getting loot isn't really true, and actually isn't the point. Our new people scoop up tier 4 pretty fast when we retro farm those bosses (usually for their benefit anyway.) The problem most people perceive with a point system is, in fact, its greatest strength. People like loot councils because they're "fair" (and as noted, they are, until they are not. They're also slow as hell.) Point systems are not fair; they are impartial. A point system provides an orderly and predictable method to distribute loot, based on participation of its members. And so yes, new members get their t5 after the more senior members of the guild. That's as it should be, in general. It is not intended to, nor can it be, "fair". As soon as you start monkeying around with exceptions and to a lesser extent, class preferences you start reducing the impartiality of the system, and that's not a good thing. (We don't use class preferences; we presume our members know what is and is not useful for their character progression, and trust they won't buy stupidly.)

We did a zero-sum in the previous guild, and I hated it. No real means to reward people for extra effort. You have to re-zero the system occasionally to keep it actually zero sum (people leaving, people joining, etc.) It's great on paper, but a headache in practice. Open-ended is a headache, too. It's just less of a headache than zero-sum

[Paruhdox]

This is where zero-sum dkp comes in handy. I was in a guild where the DKP value of every item was set. You were charged dkp based on how much it would upgrade you. So it didnt hurt you to upgrade when something was an "upgrade."

For example, Say Tier 2 boots are 50 dkp and i was already wearing them. I bid on Tier 2.5 boots which are 75 dkp. They take the difference and that is what im charged so i only pay 25 dkp for my boots. The nice thing about zero sum is that since i only paid 25 dkp for my boots if that was the only loot awarded that night that 25 dkp is split among the 40 other people and that is how much dkp the raid is worth.

Thats probably a little long winded and maybe confusing to some people but it is about the only dkp system i like. To many times have i seen people purposely not take MAJOR upgrades because they were waiting for a legendary drop or a staff of shadow flame.

[Paruhdox]

Source: nethervoid This is a good point, and something I hadn't thought of before. Raid nights that end in wipe after wipe, costing gold with no loot gained, garner no DKP from a zero sum system; while the off night Kara farm would. Maybe the weighting system I described above could help this out? Maybe you could also have a multiplier gained incrementally by the number of progression raids you attended, regardless if loot dropped or not? Adjustments seem to be needed again, although every adjustment complicates the system further even though it also brings the system closer to being the most fair of all. Gah.

If your zero sum system does not incorperate a progression hourly rate thats just bad. There are lots of ways to make zero-sum systems work right you just have to do it.

[Satrina]

One thing we did in zero-sum was charging people points for items crafted with cores (pre-TBC yep yep), other raid drops needed for crafting, and BOE items going to alts or people who weren't present at the raid. At the end of the month, those points spent would be allocated to people who farmed herbs, donated stuff, were entitled to bonuses, etc. It was a nightmare of accounting. It never would have covered the cost of an hourly progression rate for sure.

So, I'm curious how you would put an hourly progression rate into zero-sum. You could put a dummy member in the system that pays the progression points, but that's introducing inflation into your zero-sum system and just hiding it out of sight.

[Ciderhelm]

ETDKP
Here's what Eventide used. This was our final and most effective loot system, in large part designed by Nycthel. I am also including my Damocles Recruitment system.

Spending DKP:
1) Single bid, silent bid. Minimum bid depending on zone.
2) No class restrictions, no priorities, no seniority or attendance rules.
3) Tank Gearing was part of the system and used set prices.

Earning DKP:
1) DKP is earned on an hourly basis for all players in the raid or on standby.
2) DKP is earned for any boss kill, progression night, or any other award marker determined by the raid leader.
3) DKP is earned for turning in materials requested by the guild bank for progression. Prices are adjusted based on immediate and long-term guild goals.

Damocles Recruitment:
1) Applicants are voted on by all guild members. A single denial resulted in a denied application.
2) If a vote of denial is unreasonable then removal of the guild member who voted against the applicant would resolve the issue. This was never used.

What This Meant
Because the general membership was fundamentally accountable for the quality of new players in the guild, loot issues and loot drama did not occur because of the lack of restriction. It was understood that every member had a deep understanding of their role and geared accordingly.

Since the guild bank was able to cover all major consumables for encounters, the benefits of players earning DKP for farming spoke for itself. We were able to pull upwards of eighty flasks in twenty-four hour periods to handle unexpected progression. As certain consumables became well-stocked, we were able to reduce their reward and shift them to longer-term goals such as Shadow and Frost Protection potions.


Inflation in Currency
One of the greatest advancements in economic theory occurred in the struggle between the Spanish and British empires. Spain, like nearly every culture and civilization before it, considered gold to be wealth. Britain, on the other hand, argued that gold had nothing to do with wealth; wealth, they said, was what you had -- property, prosperity and a standard of living. DKP, it turns out, does not matter in quantity, but in what it gives you.

Inflation in DKP does not matter as long as the fundamental integrity of the system stays intact -- as long as a player is able to choose an arbitrary value of worth and assign it to an item. For example, if a member of a guild has 100 dkp and the item he or she wants is 10 dkp, it would be the same if she had 10,000 DKP and spends 1,000 DKP. The value does not matter.

However, that only holds true in a bid-based system, and can only remain true with an attached Minimum Bid for high-desirability, low-competition items (class-only items, for example).