[nethervoid]

Source: Satrina One thing we did in zero-sum was charging people points for items crafted with cores (pre-TBC yep yep), other raid drops needed for crafting, and BOE items going to alts or people who weren't present at the raid. At the end of the month, those points spent would be allocated to people who farmed herbs, donated stuff, were entitled to bonuses, etc. It was a nightmare of accounting. It never would have covered the cost of an hourly progression rate for sure. So, I'm curious how you would put an hourly progression rate into zero-sum. You could put a dummy member in the system that pays the progression points, but that's introducing inflation into your zero-sum system and just hiding it out of sight.

Well one way is to increase the person's multiplier as I stated previously. You could increase the multiplier for each boss attempt and/or once per hour by a fixed amount. At the same time you would have to figure out a decay rate for this multiplier, else it would be it's own inflation. Like once a member looted an item from a progression kill, their multiplier would be reset?

Another thing I was thinking about was how to combat DKP hoarding? I remember when I was in a guild raiding lower Planes of Power (EQ), and nobody would loot anything because they wanted to save up for the elemental molds (which work just like tier tokens - shocker!). So we had all this loot rotting because nobody wanted to spend their DKP on the minor upgrades that dropped for us for at least 2 months. It really sucked to watch all that loot rot.

Everyone knows of at least a handful of people who horde their DKP because they're waiting on the uber drop three bosses up in progression. This can be a very cyclic thing. If you're waiting for that item three bosses forward in progression, what will you be waiting for when you actually get to that boss? Three bosses ahead probably has even better loot. Endless cycle.

Maybe you could have a decaying modifier for DKP earned that resets when the member loots an item? This would encourage members away from hording. If they continue not to spend their DKP, they get less and less DKP awarded compared to their peers. The one downside to this is it hurts well-geared members who might not see many upgrades anyway (although arguably this shouldn't be a problem once a guild breaks into 5 man content [i think]).

*edit*

Ciderhelm, I see what you're saing with inflation not meaning a thing so long as you continually adjust the prices on loot or use a bid system, but it's a much harder system to control. Personally I like the bid system, but many others don't. *shrug* Not sure how to fix that issue. There are so many almost invisible factors that weigh in on how a guild treats loot. As was previously mentioned, too little DKP and you see lots of rot, too much DKP and people are bidding on things just to vendor it.

[Ciderhelm]

The advantage of a silent bid system is very simple: people set their own prices.

If someone thinks an item is worth 1,000 DKP and they bid 1,000 DKP, if they win they pay exactly what they think it is worth.

If someone thinks that same item is worth 700 DKP and they bid 700 DKP, it's not worth as much to them as it is to the other player.

The item was worth more to the player who bid 1,000 than it was to the player who bid 700.

It completely eliminates issues of unfair pricing as well as any inter-personal loot drama. People have different motivations as far as gear improvements -- some were content to wait weeks after others to get their items and paid less as a result. Others see value in having an item first, or they really look forward to that one particular drop, and they focus their effort into it.

[Lore]

I've never been much of a fan of varying price loot systems. They're just too easy to exploit, in my opinion. Even if someone doesn't mean to cheat the system, even if it's a "silent bid", they'll talk about what loot they want to get with their guildmates, and end up making deals like "Well I'll pass on the Bulwark of Azzinoth if you pass on the Faceplate of Impenetrable Darkness." End result: people bid lower, because they know they're getting the item. Then, when they're up for a Tier 6 token, they've got more DKP to work with.

Also, how do you deal with items that only one person wants? A lot of times loot that's dropped two or three times is obviously going to someone the next time it drops - how many DPS warriors and rogues do you bring to pick up melee weapons? Does the first person to get an item pay more than the last?

We use a flat-price system. It's really not that hard to set up; after you figure out how much you want to award people for attendance, wipes, boss kills, etc., you set a base amount for each slot. You can fluctuate from that base price depending on how good or bad an item is. There's still the saving of DKP for that one item you really want, the difference is just that it's the same across-the-board. If someone doesn't think the price of an item is right, they can bring it up with us then (and we can change it), or they can pass it to someone else.

[Ciderhelm]

Source: Sledge I've never been much of a fan of varying price loot systems. They're just too easy to exploit, in my opinion. Even if someone doesn't mean to cheat the system, even if it's a "silent bid", they'll talk about what loot they want to get with their guildmates, and end up making deals like "Well I'll pass on the Bulwark of Azzinoth if you pass on the Faceplate of Impenetrable Darkness." End result: people bid lower, because they know they're getting the item. Then, when they're up for a Tier 6 token, they've got more DKP to work with.

Was a non-issue. We had players who understood the need for integrity in the system.

Not to say that everyone was perfect and there were no loot whores; just that the people who tried to make deals were always trumped by the people who didn't. The one case pre-TBC where an entire class jumped into it (Paladins) resulted in two guild removals. That was mid-Blackwing Lair.

Source: Sledge Also, how do you deal with items that only one person wants? A lot of times loot that's dropped two or three times is obviously going to someone the next time it drops - how many DPS warriors and rogues do you bring to pick up melee weapons? Does the first person to get an item pay more than the last?

Minimum bid exists for this reason. Each zone had a minimum bid (successively larger than the last tier zone) which was high enough that players who didn't want an item for serious use wouldn't bid.

The first person always paid more than the last. There was no question for us that the first drop of an item was more valuable than a drop two months later because a) you get use out of the item for those two months where other players do not and b) a first drop has more prestige and may be a major goal for a particular player.

[Armstrong]

Source: Satrina So, I'm curious how you would put an hourly progression rate into zero-sum. You could put a dummy member in the system that pays the progression points, but that's introducing inflation into your zero-sum system and just hiding it out of sight.

I'm not sure that directly answers the question, but back when we used DKP (zero-sum), we would apply a tax on earned DKP, which would go to a "practice pool", and from there was then distributed to members who were present for progression raids.

[muulan]

I was reading about loot policy in other forums and came across someone's comment which really looked interesting. His argument, while not original in its idea but very much so in its context, was that loot systems reflect the guilds (and the guild leadership's) view on political leanings. It was a short post but my interpretation is that loot systems are basically a mirror version of many forms of practiced governance. In the end, the question is not "which system is better?" but "what is the mission of my guild?" That is what determines the success of any loot system (gov form) in your guild. You can consider this post an extrapolation of my previous one.

Maximize Fairness : Communism/Socialism
Like its respective government, Zero-sum DKP and other similar derivatives have one aim. To equalize loot to every member of the guild, eventually equalizing gearing, thereby maximizing the fairness factor. The advantages are great when every member of the guild contributes equally or are "friends" that can overlook unequal effort. But I doubt in practice, this system holds up without some major (creative) modifications. An appeal to mediocrity will ultimately fail if guild success is measured by progression. There is no real incentive in this system to "go the extra mile", as an result learning runs, guild banks, and other areas of guild activity requiring individual extra effort suffer accordingly. Those who do more for the guild under this system are punished (have the least to gain) and those who do the least are rewarded (have the most to gain). I say the least have the most to gain because one can just farm DKP position in 10mans (or whatever 25man the guild has on farm) and get top loot in the progression 25mans without ever having to wipe on one "learning run". Taxes and adjustments on zero-sum systems will never allow you to be two items ahead of anyone else, any lead you build will be wiped with just 1 item looted.
Just like in its real life counterparts, over-achievers in this system feel ostracized and flee the system to one that will "reward them appropriately". Mass exoduses of talent from communist states into the US is very comparable to that "hardcore raiders" leaving zero-sum guilds. Granted some don't leave because they are rewarded in non-loot areas (officership, positions of influence). Modifications to the zero-sum system (something mathematically very complex but possible) also exist to give those pushing progression their "fair" share.
However most guilds with a successful and long term implementation of zero-sum DKP are focused on the social aspects of WoW (rather than progression). From that perspective this system excels at its design, promoting friendly members who don't just see you as competition for loot. Casual guilds have also implemented this system to great effect in karazhan. But once progression reaches a level where it actually requires effort and sacrifice (heavy investment in time) in the much harder 25mans, Zero-sum usually "breaks down". Breaks down as in the guild transitions to a pure DKP system, splits into casual vs hardcore raiders, or drops the (few but present) parasites who want "real" epics (SSC/TK) without the effort.

Maximize Reward : Free-market Capitalism
Traditional forms of DKP point accumulation and its various inflation fighting derivatives are based off of this model. The goal here is to reward based on merit, thus driving guild members to progress (attend raids, contribute to the guild bank) through their personal greed.
However, as with any capitalistic society a gap quickly develops between the haves and the have nots. DKP-poor members (either new or casual) quickly find themselves not getting loot because DKP-rich members accumulate such a lead ahead of them. Then the poor fellows' only recourse for any epix would be those that trickles down from hardcore raiders so fat with loot that crumbs of purples manage to escape their greedy paws. Come to think of it, that analogy reminds me of Reganomics. On the other hand most guilds have a backbone set of raiders that probably have 2x DKP of any regular member because they raid and contribute twice (if not more) to the guild. If DKP is an unbiased representation of contribution, then these hoarding, top hat-wearing, miserly bastards have every damn right to twice the loot cause they worked twice as hard for it. Guilds whose goals are focused on progression rather than being welfare programs (seriously though, if you want welfare epics go to the arena) promote this form of governance; well at least the DKP-rich ones do. Fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on where you stand), unlike the exploited masses of most unregulated capitalist societies in real life (ie Chinese gold farmers), those who are at the bottom end of the economic ladder can just /gquit and join the zero-sum communes where no one will be better than them.
Losing members is bad for business... I mean guilds. So over time guild leadership (ie DKP-rich robber barons) developed systems which gave the illusion of fairness. Like DKP taxes and DKP decay. These certainly gave targeted benefits to the poorer member of the guild and builds tolerance of guild members towards unequal loot distribution. But don't be fooled, at the heart of all of these varied systems is the drive towards unequal loot distribution. Accumulated DKP systems are not about fairness and and never will be fair, their goal is to entice members to push progression above all else. In worst case scenarios guildies are no longer helpful friends but competing enemies, eventually leading to guild splits.

Leave It up to Chance: Anarchy
I am surprised blizzard's built-in loot system is one based on random chance. Although it adds excitement and entertainment value to looting, there are downsides. When drops are the result of months of daily effort by more than 25 people, its no longer "fun" to leave things to chance. But that is exactly what blizzard leaves us with. /Rolls are not completely random when we talk about gearing. The common argument is that the more raids you attend the more rolls you'll be able to participate in. Yet the lack of predictability is a poor substitute for promotion of guild mission and purpose. Weighted rolls might seem like a better system, but in the end randomness still exists for something that has no need to be random. I don't hear many guilds practicing /rolls for loot in 25mans and beyond. My theory is that the use of /roll stems from laziness on the part of leadership to implement a "real" loot system. With the help of so many UI's out there, there is really no reason to /random anymore other than Kara alt runs.

[mattdeeze]

This is my first post on Tanking and Melee Reference. While i dont think my guild is ready yet for loot managment, (currently just starting Kara) I do think that basing loot values on the number ranked for an item in relation to item level is not a good start. Loot values are more of an exponetial of item level. This will require math that is beyond me, as there will have to be a division factor that may approach the realm of calculus (which is beyond me). But i do know that the reletive value of an item to members is much more than the item ranking. Most of us already have items that are ranked level 100 or higher. so to price items based directly upon item level simply doesnt make sence. As an item that will offer a modest improvement will cost approx. 95%+ of the cost of a extremely awesome highly desireable piece. A simple way to establish a value on an item is to square the item level and divide by 100 (or whatever amount your guild economy can afford). I do realize that this is an over-simplification of the math involved, but that is what you math majors who do such a great job on this site are for. Just my two cents. Mattdeeze

[mattdeeze]

Edit: may take a subtraction before or after the square to further normalize the value of a specific item.

[Lavache]

Source: Ciderhelm Spending DKP: 3) Tank Gearing was part of the system and used set prices.

can you go into some more detail on this cider? i like your system and am working on revising our dkp to be more efficient and hopefully equitable for everyone and am going to try and give the silent bid a spin to see how it works.

i dont want things to be unfair to other class if tanks are paying less, especially as a tank & gm - i know someone will somehow feel slighted by this and get pissy.

[Andenthal]

My $1.05..

In my old guild, we used a variation of Zero-Sum DKP. I say variation, because it was possible to earn points outside of a boss kill. It worked very well, until the inevitable inflation occurred.

The guild leader was not a great strategist or theorist by any means, but he did have a REALLY good way to curb the inflation problem.

Most items had a value between 15 and 25 points. The officers decided that no one raider should ever need above 100 points. So, the first of every month (we called this tax day =p) we multiplied everyone's points by a number. If the highest raider had 110 DKP, we would multiply everyone's DKP by .9, to bring the highest below 100. After time, we decided to use the same number every month to stay consistent - I think it was .85

Everyone stayed in the same order, and the same relation to one another. If you had 10% more DKP than the next highest raider, you still had 10% more after "tax day".

[Norrath]

I like the system you posted, Ciderhelm -- I'd also like to know more about how tank gearing worked.

[Ciderhelm]

Source: Norrath I like the system you posted, Ciderhelm -- I'd also like to know more about how tank gearing worked.

wow I didn't even see this response 'til I got a PM request for it.


Tank gearing was a pre-determined price for pre-determined loot. Our DKP manager Nycthel (Rogue) decided the prices, usually by comparing what people would realistically pay for a first drop and upping it 10-20%. We posted the list of items that would be Main Tank geared as soon as possible when we got into a new zone.

MT Gearing applied to myself and my off-tank. During Ahn'Qiraj, it also applied to two Warlocks for Twin Emperors (which we wound up not using the Warlocks for Twin Emps, just Warriors). During Naxxramas, it applied to eight Warriors to get them 4-piece Dreadnaught for handling Four Horsemen.

Resistance pieces were treated equally across the raid, though depending on the pieces tanks would get them first. Resistance drops were free and assigned based off attendance.

Legendary items never had a solid system attached to them. By and large it was a /roll among high-attendance members who'd been in the guild 4 months. Thunderfury was limited by role (tanking) but was also a /roll, which is the reason I wound up getting mine deep in Naxx and not earlier.

[nethervoid]

Source: muulan Maximize Fairness : Communism/Socialism Like its respective government, Zero-sum DKP and other similar derivatives have one aim. To equalize loot to every member of the guild, eventually equalizing gearing, thereby maximizing the fairness factor. The advantages are great when every member of the guild contributes equally or are "friends" that can overlook unequal effort. But I doubt in practice, this system holds up without some major (creative) modifications. An appeal to mediocrity will ultimately fail if guild success is measured by progression. There is no real incentive in this system to "go the extra mile", as an result learning runs, guild banks, and other areas of guild activity requiring individual extra effort suffer accordingly. Those who do more for the guild under this system are punished (have the least to gain) and those who do the least are rewarded (have the most to gain). I say the least have the most to gain because one can just farm DKP position in 10mans (or whatever 25man the guild has on farm) and get top loot in the progression 25mans without ever having to wipe on one "learning run". Taxes and adjustments on zero-sum systems will never allow you to be two items ahead of anyone else, any lead you build will be wiped with just 1 item looted. Just like in its real life counterparts, over-achievers in this system feel ostracized and flee the system to one that will "reward them appropriately". Mass exoduses of talent from communist states into the US is very comparable to that "hardcore raiders" leaving zero-sum guilds. Granted some don't leave because they are rewarded in non-loot areas (officership, positions of influence). Modifications to the zero-sum system (something mathematically very complex but possible) also exist to give those pushing progression their "fair" share. However most guilds with a successful and long term implementation of zero-sum DKP are focused on the social aspects of WoW (rather than progression). From that perspective this system excels at its design, promoting friendly members who don't just see you as competition for loot. Casual guilds have also implemented this system to great effect in karazhan. But once progression reaches a level where it actually requires effort and sacrifice (heavy investment in time) in the much harder 25mans, Zero-sum usually "breaks down". Breaks down as in the guild transitions to a pure DKP system, splits into casual vs hardcore raiders, or drops the (few but present) parasites who want "real" epics (SSC/TK) without the effort.

There are a lot of flaws in this section of loot theory. First, Socialized/Communist loot is in the form of loot council. A council decides who gets the loot, and often those who have the most to gain from an upgrade (those who are not raiding as often) get quite a bit more loot per capita. On the other hand (although your theory states the opposite), a zero-sum system awards raiders each time they raid, which means if you put more raids in, you get more loot. That is not a communistic system.

I agree something must be added to the system to promote progression runs and also for those who farm consumables etc for the guild. This, I think, is the only flaw of the system. Yes it is mathmatically complicated. Yes we have computers. Use them. Write some code to do the work for you and BAM! it's no longer an issue.

See the real problem behind a non-zero system is inflation. It's too difficult to build an inflating system for which you can balance the purchase power of your core raiders against your not-so-core or new members. If you give too much purchase power, your core raiders buy up everything, leaving the other 50% of your raiders with little to show for their work. This really can hurt the guild by turning off new members. They can be pushing, in many cases (I've been this guy), harder than core raiders for months without even one single drop, which is just horrible and is just begging for that hard worker to go elsewhere. The opposite end of the spectrum (deflation) makes certain everyone's too poor to loot an item. The latter rarely happens as it's much more obvious when deflation is a problem rather than inflation.

I think the perfect set up is a zero-sum system with benefits for progression and farmers, married with a silent bid system to allow people to pay what they think an item is worth. All the greatest pieces of all systems put into one. (notice none of the loot council systems are in there *snickers*)

[Spiritreaper]

Being the GM and raid leader of what could be termed a "casual" raid guild I am considering changing our loot system to a DKP based system. I have always been involved with guilds using loot council so my experience with DKP is non-existant.

I am considering the change due to some attendance and consistancy issues that I am trying to correct. I want to be able to incent consistency and farming for progression and I don't see an easy way loot council can handle that.

I'm looking for resources on DKP, item value formulas, system specifics etc so that I can review and work out a system that I think would work for my guild. Starting from zero knowledge and being able to make the right choice is what I am after. This thread has been a great start so far, can anyone offer additional advice?

[Brucimus]

I am a in a casual raid guild and we still use need greed pass and we are TOTALLY against any DKP systems. Most of us a pretty close and we dont fear ninjaing or loot whoring. I'm not sure what we will do when we start 25 mans but i think we be fine

[Lavache]

Source: Spiritreaper Being the GM and raid leader of what could be termed a "casual" raid guild I am considering changing our loot system to a DKP based system. I have always been involved with guilds using loot council so my experience with DKP is non-existant. I am considering the change due to some attendance and consistancy issues that I am trying to correct. I want to be able to incent consistency and farming for progression and I don't see an easy way loot council can handle that. I'm looking for resources on DKP, item value formulas, system specifics etc so that I can review and work out a system that I think would work for my guild. Starting from zero knowledge and being able to make the right choice is what I am after. This thread has been a great start so far, can anyone offer additional advice?

there is a post in the guild relations forum on the WoW boards that covered a lot of that. we instated a modified version of the system Cider posted and it was very well received and so far has worked pretty well.

[kryonik]

This is the system we used in my old guild.

On our guild forums, you would list your top 10 (or 15 or whatever) desired loot drops, in order from most desired to least desired. No DKP technically, but we gave out "raid hours" or whatever they were. So if you went to a raid one night and it took 2 hours, you got 2 raid hours.

If an item drops, whoever has that item listed the highest gets it. If two people have the item listed at the same place, the one who has more raid hours gets it and gets raid hours deducted. If they both have the same, they roll.

[Ciderhelm]

Not to discourage guilds who are successfully using tank gearing -- don't stop if it's helping -- but my feelings on it have changed.

Though Tank Gearing helped our guild early on with the 40-man raids, particularly as we moved from a casual guild to a raiding guild, I no longer feel it is necessary for maximum progression. It won't hurt, but it may not help. This is especially true with the 25-man Burning Crusade dynamics, where rules designed for 72-man Everquest raids may simply be dated.

[Ceravantes]

The idea of "Main Tank Gearing" is dated, but I would not go so far as to say that it is not to the benefit of progression to gear Tanks over other classes. In my guild we use a tank gearing system, we have 3 tanks who take tiered loot first, myself our prot pally and a feral druid, we work out our best upgrades amongst ourselves and decide on a loot order for non tiered pieces.

While this has been the basic idea behind the loot system for awhile, we have just recently went to a DKP system, similar to the one Ciderhelm posted, which has helped to increase participation in donations to the guild bank for consumables as well as attendance issues.

[Kream]

Ni Karma
Complicated explanation

I've seen a few loot systems used throughout my time in EQ (although not this one) and Ni Karma impresses me as avoiding most of the problems caused by loot systems: collusion and inflation. The background math is somewhat complex but as a raider all you need to know is if you need it.. karma, if you just want it, roll.