[mistersix]

Source: wrynn I've taken into account the idea of Satrina and others, as well as a few other tidbit changes and made up my very own "3.2 band-aid Prot talent tree." Let me know what you think. War Tools :: Talent tree 3.2 Fixes via Talent Tree (Refresh the page to spec it out yourself). The tree assumes that they make changes to our abilities to have our threat come more from raw damage and less from innate threat components. **Note: I've taken Conc. Blow out of the tree b/c I feel it should be made a trainable ability. Give me your thoughts.

I think you've got a few nice ideas here (making sunders/devastates really matter) but a lot of the changes being discussed have more to do with mechanics and formulas than re-tuning or re-imagining talents.

[protonly]

Heroic Strike should just be a 5 rage cost self buff you can hit for 5 minutes that adds whatever damage it does (435) to all abilities during the duration. Make it talentable to increase the damage by whatever.

[Krashtork]

I agree that the hard work you have to do to be a good warrior tank is part of the appeal of being a warrior tank, but you shouldn't have to work twice as hard as the other tanks to even be on par with them. It's a matter of being rewarded for the amount of effort it takes.

Example...

AoE Threat on a large pack of mobs. As a warrior it takes a charge to get some rage, a TC (that has to hit all the mobs or your healers are going to be hurting if you don't taunt quick), a well aimed shockwave (that can cause the death of your DPS if it misses), potentially some cleave spam if you have the rage (costs a glyph spot to be truly effective), more TC, more well aimed shockwave, more cleave spam, some lucky crits, and you might hold aggro on the mobs.

As a paladin: Consecrate + Hammer + Avengers Shield (Maybe Holy Shield unless you're lazy / bored) whenever they are available and you win.

[uglybbtoo]

Source: Honorshammer I call into question how much you really play your Paladin since the Exorcism Glyph hasn't interupted since Beta.

Well that will be why I don't see it much I just thought it had a low proc rate :-) DOH

[austaz]

We I took the recommended first step for helping warrior tanks and reduced the number of subscriptions with warrior tanks attached - cancelled both accounts. Maybe if enough people do it something will come of it and we can come back to the game later.

[Squirrelnut]

The problem with that is I would expect it is exactly what they DON'T want. Reduced or inflated numbers that don't accurately represent the population. If they really are basing decisions around the numbers and class representation then I am sure they wouldn't want to fix our broken mechanics only to have all the ones on 'strike' to return to the game and have an over represented class again. lawl

Seriously though I REALLY hope they aren't overly affected by population statistics considerations when making decisions; even when 'keeping them in mind' there are SO many other things are vastly more important.

[Shadevarr]

I've been playing a warrior for quite some time, I try to cover my classes shortcoming with skill and my guild firmly believes that warriors are not the weakest tanking class ( yay me?).

I know people are throwing out a lot of suggested fixes for this and that.

bloc value formula needs to change imho instead of a whole new mechanic: SBV = (((STR+SBV)x1.3)x1.1)x(lvl/30)

That should give enough block value to make it worthwhile and shield block to really be a defensive cooldown. Granted this will do insane things do your burst damage which we sorely needed too. I really don't like having a zerked bear pulling off my target on 2 mob pulls just due to the their multi target abilities.

Heroic strike: this is a rage dump, right? I think a simple lvl/54 damage per rage, eats the full bar (like execute) would be viable. Talent would be heroic strike does not use 10/20/30 rage but damage is unaffected.

last constant concern of prot warriors, rage on avoidance. With block becoming worthwhile simply change the talent to grant 1/2/3/4/5 rage on blocks.

If blizz needs the code for this so we can have a working class before 2010, I can write it for them :P

[mistersix]

It always seems to be me that the reason they're gun-shy about fixing a lot of our core issues is that to do means changing some core combat formulae (block value, rage generation, etc.). I've always gotten the impression that the developers that did that basic code are long gone and that it's not always safe or easy to adjust because of how the game code talks to itself (which always gets convoluted over time and size anyway). I think that's why Ghostcrawler and team always look to tweaking talents and such as a first best guess to finding solutions.

That said it's possible that a lot of Satrina's concerns could still be adjusted by going down that route:

From satrina in the source thread
"Warriors do not need all that much, honestly. I made a thread about that a few days ago which isn't inflammatory and so fell off the radar in an afternoon. In summary:

Major:
- Rage on avoidance (as a bandaid until rage can be reworked)
- Decrease innate threat on the few abilities that still have high numbers, and replace with damage
- Buff Devastate damage
- Change warrior crit conversion from agility to strength (at a lower conversion ratio, for sure)
- Revisit why warriors need two glyphs and a sad talent to get equivalent save cooldown timers to others

Minor:
- Change Glyph of Bloodrage to grant more initial rage instead of reducing health taken
- Increase sustained AoE threat (I actually don't care about this at all, but others do)
- It'd be nice if Revenge couldn't be dodged/parried

One that was on my list was gettiing more expertise to warriors without getting it on gear (Vitality gives x/y/z% of strengh as expertise skill) but they seem to be making an effort to equalise the need for expertise across all the tanking classes, so it may not be completely necessary. However, given how expertise sits in the hierarchy of threat skills for the warrior, I'm not sure that making all the classes as dependent on it as warriors is the right answer.

I'm ignoring block since it needs a rework for both block classes that isn't likely to happen before another expac."

I know tankspot isn't always prone to looking at wow tool conjeture since it can inevitably turn into fanboy wankery but I've taken a stab at applying tweaks to talents that address all (or close to it) the issues Satrina raised.

War Tools :: Talent tree Revisions for Satrina

In a nutshell:

To address rage on avoidance issues:

• Deflection and Anticipation have gained the same chance to gen rage that shield spec has currently.

To address aoe threat:

• Improved Thunderclap, rather than adjusting rage cost cuts down on cooldown time.
• Puncture is replaced with sundering cleave.

To address prot damage:

• Devastate has it's damage and damage per sunder values increased
• Imp revenge allows the ability to not be d/p/b
• Reduced the talent cost of One-handed weapon specialization to be inline with what it is currently for paladins. (which also afforded the opportunity to slide in a spiritual attunement copycat on that same tier to help with rage gen in case prot damage rage gen remains an issue).

I also addressed some quality of life and disparity issues:

• Increase the duration value of shouts via booming voice
• Adjusted sword spec to be more attractive
• I also adjusted talents that only effected rage costs like imp heroic strike and imp execute to do more base damage instead on the assumption that rage gen from damage done would be adjusted up across the board.
• Likewise there's an attempt in there to address the heroic strike spam issue.

Again I don't expect much response to this post given what I've seen in the past to this sort of armchair designer type post but I do think it suggests that some of our needed issues could be addressed simply and without much deep coding required. The sort of "tweak the numbers" approach that GC and team are more comfortable with as an interim solution.

Thoughts?

[Junkyard]

If this goes live it's a band-aid fix for rage, but I would take it. All I ask is they do a couple more things. Change heroic strike to a shaman style weapon buff and do something with thunderclap our sustained aoe is crap. If they did just that I could wait til the next expansion for any major changes.

[Onyxhorn]

Hate to re-bring up a thread that's been dead for a few months, but I wasn't sure that this merited a whole new thread devoted to it. I recently changed back to my warrior from my druid (both tanks) for tanking on my guild runs, mainly because I find warrior tanking to be more fun and challenging - simply a matter of personal preference, nothing to do with the in-game validity/power of the class mechanics. I've been doing my homework getting caught back up on the state of warriors in 3.2 and figuring out what I need to be doing to put myself in a good position for both MT'ing and OT'ing in the 3.2 content and beyond, and I've definitely noticed the Rage issue still haunting us.

I don't know if this is something that has been suggested elsewhere, maybe it has and has already been shot down for various reasons. But, has any consideration been given to incorporating Vigilance into how we receive rage? We already get 10% of the Vig target's threat (15% if glyphed), why not give us a % of rage based on the amt of damage they cause as well? You don't have to make any changes to Prot warrior DPS to facilitate this, which therefore doesn't break Prot warriors from a pvp perspective. And, it would help in overgeared content - albeit not as much as rage from avoidance - but it isn't as big a threat to pvp balance as rage from avoidance would be either, which regardless of your stance on pvp, is definitely something the devs have to account for. I suppose in theory, dropping Vig on someone in a BG or your high-damage dealing arena partner is going to give you some more rage in pvp, but pvp fights are (on average) short enough that I think you could balance this to not be a gamebreaker, whereas over the course of a boss fight or a 5-man that you overgear by a horrific margin (and therefore are forced to tank w/out pants on), that additional rage would really add up and help to prevent you from HS'ing all your rage away so constantly.

Course...I'm still tanking heroics with no pants on either way, but that's just because Tauren have smexy legs. Anyway, I digress. Do we think this is something that might be plausible? I'd post something where I thought the blues would see it, but this is a pretty darn smart community and I wanted to get your thoughts on the idea first.

[Onyxhorn]

I should've also added, the additional rage would help us keep our DPS up as our gear increases as well, but that's sort of a given.

[Squirrelnut]

Vigilance = worst ability ever invented. I vote remove it entirely and as a result improve Prot Warrior rage generation mechanics, dps and tps output

Thread may now return to the grave [/necro]