[Cottoncandie]

Nice post Ciderhelm. I'll tell you the thing that is most frustrating to me as a tank. Packs coming in when i have no rage. It feels like other tanks (druids excluded) are fine when a pull starts there at full mana / runes. So they can use any of there abilities. We have to either use a CD to get instant rage or hit something first. A badly timed heal or anxious dps and bam were stuck chasing mobs all around and the pull gets messed up. It is for this reason that i start almost every pull with charge it gives me time to get quick threat via thunderclap.

[Wyuli]

I created a reply to Satrina's thread on the O-board detailing a couple of issues regarding warrior tanks that I would like to see examined, but the most pertinent to this topic is the almost complete lack of design space that involves expanding parry to be a more offensive-minded stat.

As it stands, parry has been called a "don't bother" stat on these forums and the EJ boards. It's essentially a second-class avoidance stat that we would happily trade away for an equivalent (and in most cases, less) amount of dodge rating. Having a mechanic for warriors that allows parrying to translate into more damage and/or threat than simply an increased speed on my next white swing seems an elegant, if complex, 2-for-1 solution. Additional damage done (based on your parry rating or parry chance) on your next yellow attack after a parry is a clunky but serviceable example.

If the threat or damage component of such a mechanic were good enough, Warriors would welcome parry instead of trying to trade it away for dodge at every convenient opportunity. Parry gems might even have some use. Parry is, in theory, already a hybrid avoidance/threat stat. Playing to the threat end of that hybridization seems a reasonable approach to helping damage (though, like Ciderhelm wrote in the original post, it needs to not be a glyph or additional talent - it would ideally be an innate ability or folded into a talent we are inclined to take anyway).

[Biggensak]

I'm not sure I'm as concerned about the comparative ease with which some encounters seem to work with a DK tanking a boss vs a Warrior - the nerfs to DK's in 3.2 should level the playing field a lot.

What concerns me about GC's post in the previous thread was the sense of balancing around some perceived advantage warrior tanks have due to their history in the game versus other tanks.

The Dev team seems to forget that they designed the class balance in vanilla WoW and made Warriors the only viable tanks which means there's already a much larger "legacy" base of warriors than the other tanking classes. In BC they included mechanics that heavily favored block on some raids and made warriors niche choices for certain encounters. Now it seems the tanking class with the longest history in the game per the developer's own design is to be culled simply to balance the on-paper stats regarding how many of each class are in the game?

I've never seen such an arbitrary metric on which to base class balance decisions. Most warriors are not looking to be buffed unreasonably or even become the best tanks - simply looking to fix the obvious stuff (rage/HS/low DPS/poor passive survivability scaling in endgame) and be brought in line with the rest of the tanks.

[Biggensak]

For those who are not familiar with the Ghostcrawler post on warriors that's set the world afire:

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Warrior Community Let Down.

Q u o t e:
if you've been playing a warrior for long, and you don't know how to deal with disappointment by now, i don't know what to tell you.

Being the best tank for 70 levels can be disappointing.

Q u o t e:
Warriors have consistently been the worst tank since WoTLK dropped (Or fighting with paladins for that honor). In 3.2 they don't really move "up", rather DKs simply take the paladins old role of "worst competitor".

I’m not sure that statement is accurate, but here is the problem. There are A LOT of warrior tanks. They are tanking every fight in Ulduar. If warriors were too low and if we buffed them, I don’t see how that would increase the numbers on the other tanks. I don’t think the conclusion to be drawn is that warriors are overpowered. I think the conclusion to be drawn is that warriors were the traditional tank and lot of established guilds have established MTs who see no reason to reroll the FotM. It’s not actually a goal to have 25% of each tank in Ulduar, but is also seems strange to buff the most popular tank. Won’t that just make them more popular? Again, don’t misinterpret that as GC sez suck it up warriors. It is something we have to keep in mind, however.

Block is a systemic problem. We're not sure we can make it a very compelling mitigation stat in a world where tank avoidance is so high and bosses hit so hard. However I will say that the Coliseum fights should focus less on the blow-your-cooldowns-or-die style of encounter.

Rage starvation is a problem. Frankly, we're not sure a model where you have to get hit in order to tank is that compelling anymore. Something that has come up a lot is changing rage (even for Prot) to damage done. This is a slight nerf to the PvP mechanic of being punished when you hit the warrior, but there are other ways to solve that as well. Again, we're talking a big change here. I'm not sure we're comfortable jacking with such a core mechanic before 3.2.

We'll try to get a tanking Patchwerk on the PTR again. That provided us with a lot of information before about mitigation, cooldowns and overall time to live.

[Pruke]

Source: Darksend We are pushing 0 watcher yogg in 10 man. Our warrior MT was tanking the encounter. After several sub 10% wipes because heals went off our warrior MT said on vent "If i was on my DK I would have so many more tools to pick up adds we would never have a heal go out or have dark die because I cannot pull the one that healed off him". Maybe we still have some strat flaw but he was genuinely upset about his ability to pick up adds because of his class. But yes, as you said, he is still our MT and he contstantly talks about his lack of tools compared to other classes.

His complaint is the exact complaint I find myself making on a regular basis when it comes to playing my warrior as my tank. What I did was test the difference between the abilities of DK tanking and warrior tanking in 10 man Ulduar. We only need firefighter to be on Algalon and have the mount achievement. Last night we did hard mode General. I did 800 more DPS on my DK then I do on my warrior. When my healers went oom or got LoM when Anamis was at 2% I started to blow CD's. Still keeping icebound available for a surge. We finished it off cleanly. If I had been on my warrior those tools just wouldn't have been available. My threat that I put out on Animas when it spawned would have been totally different. As we all complain I am either raged starved or full. When the Animas spawned we hit hero and I (being blood) put my buff on the druid. I was at 11k TPS instantly and hit icebound for the surge that started at the same time the add spawned. Never missed a beat.

I love my warrior and have played him as the MT for years, ever since MC was the only raid zone. While I am not the worlds best tank I know what to use and what priority it has. Min/Max all that I can checking parses etc. No matter what I do the warrior is twice as hard to play then my DK. My DK has more options, even if they are on par with warriors. The biggest thing I can do is pick up mobs far more easier, put out better threat and do better dps.

I'm not a fotm type of person. But why should I work so damn hard to accomplish what the other 3 classes can and have a more reliable form of threat then be loyal to the class I have played for 4 years.

[Alent]

MMO-Champion BlueTracker - This is why, I think, warriors are finished <-- This thread probably merits a news entry.

[Okerhs]

Source: Horacio But to hell with that, I love my main and it will be a cold day in hell before I give up and swap.

I think its exactly that attidude that many of us have, and why there are still so many Warrior Tanks around. It would take changing warriors into a class unable to tank before i would consider swapping mains.

Please don't get any ideas dev's :P

[Malaegis]

Direct quote from GC:

I’m not sure that statement is accurate, but here is the problem. There are A LOT of warrior tanks. They are tanking every fight in Ulduar. If warriors were too low and if we buffed them, I don’t see how that would increase the numbers on the other tanks. I don’t think the conclusion to be drawn is that warriors are overpowered. I think the conclusion to be drawn is that warriors were the traditional tank and lot of established guilds have established MTs who see no reason to reroll the FotM. It’s not actually a goal to have 25% of each tank in Ulduar, but is also seems strange to buff the most popular tank. Won’t that just make them more popular? Again, don’t misinterpret that as GC sez suck it up warriors. It is something we have to keep in mind, however.


This statement shows exactly what is wrong with how they are thinking. It was stated, at the start of Wrath, that the design goal was "Bring the player, not the class." I was, and am, in complete agreement with this. Unfortunately Blizzard isn't.

The theory was that all tanks would be viable. The theory was that just because you rolled a warrior, you were not given a MT role over a Druid. Pallies were no longer "trash tanks", and those who chose to reroll the new DK class would have every opportunity to be a MT. It was a good theory. Too bad they didn't stick with it.

What GC said was "There are A LOT of warrior tanks." What he implies with this statement is that there must be a ton of frustrated DKs, Druids, and Pallies who are all great tanks who just aren't being given a chance. The warriors have the spots, and Blizz just needs to keep the warriors sub-par until most guilds give up and replace their tanks. The problem I have with this is that there are a LOT of warrior tanks because the type of person drawn to being a MT decided long ago to roll a warrior.

Now I realize that's a generalization; There are many Druid, Pally, and DK MTs. Players who, to the core, want nothing more than to be the MT on every encounter, lead the raid in to battle, and realize that one mistake can cause a wipe. It takes a certain mindset to want to be in that position day after day, pull after pull, raid after raid. Up until Wrath, though, the only way to be in that position was to be a Warrior. Those people who liked that type of challenge generally drifted to the warrior class. They spent the time to learn how to play a warrior well, know the class, and be in a position to lead.

It is simply unrealistic to think that players from other classes would suddenly flock to being a MT just because their class mechanics suddenly allow it. There were certainly some who would want that. Naxx allowed for many players to try out being a MT; If someone showed that, regardless of class, they could tank well and they enjoyed doing it, guilds took notice. It was just what Blizzard had hoped; The other classes were given a chance, and many new MTs were born.

Unfortunately, that's not enough. Blizzard has said they realize that the warrior tank is broken. Despite that, they seem to be in no hurry to fix it. They are perfectly happy to have warriors forced to take a back seat to have other players "get a chance." Warriors are asked to step behind someone else because of their class. Read that again. Warriors, skilled players who understand their class and have shown themselves to be excellent players, are being asked to sit because of their class. Bring the player, not the class indeed.

If Blizzard looks at total number of tanks, warriors will be way ahead. Years of having them be the MT class is going to leave it's mark. What I don't understand is why they have decided that the only fix is to make warriors inferior until all the MTs reroll. If the classes were equal, yes, there would be a vast majority of warrior tanks. Over time, that might change. New players coming in would have a choice, and older players eventually would move on to new games or new roles. I don't understand why they decided they had to have tank number balance right now, to the exclusion of tank class balance.

[tPaste]

That post really really upset me.

The fact that there is a lot of warrior tanks shouldn't matter at all. As it stands right now if there was a way to reroll where you converted gear, items and achievements to a new character I would do it in a heartbeat. I bet a lot would. Unfortunately there isn't, so it's more that I feel "Stuck" than "man, I really enjoy playing my underpowered and broken warrior being frustrated all the time". Warriors are "So Popular" because people don't relish the daunting task of changing their mains.

I don't enjoy leveling, I enjoy endgame and to feel like we could down this content or that content sooner if I was a different class tank (which I felt the entire time we worked on Sarth 3D with me as MT) makes me wonder why I bother.

GC and the rest haven't addressed the sorry state of Prot in months and now this maddening post is all we have to show for it.

[Damonvile]

The idea that keeping the warrior as the "worst" tank will get ppl to reroll is retarded.

They made 4 tanks viable only a few months ago. To think that that would change 4 years of warriors being the MT in that short of time just by making one of them stupidly over powered is also....retarded.

I like many other warriors wont reroll. If we lose our raid spot because our guild would rather run druid/pali/DK I'll just quit and play something else.

Trying to force a change like this the way they are doing it is going to end badly.

I think if they look at the number of new tanks made in the last few months warriors would not hold the lions share there. That shows that people are trying the new classes and the numbers will slowly change. The change should take place as a natural progression not because they hold one classes head underwater until they give up.

[Regill]

A lot of you are acting like warrior tanks are dead. That we are sad old men ready for retirement, fit only to shake our canes at the new kids (death knights).

Warriors are quite fine. We can tank the majority of hard modes in ulduar quite fine. Sure Vezax makes blood DK's look good, and Hodir is good for DKs (ICB) or pally (threat). But thorim, freya, XT, Iron Council, we tank quite well. I can't speak to Mimiron or Algalon personally.

As for anything that isn't hard mode... well its so easy that you don't need the 'best flavor of the month' tank to do it. I think one of my moonkins could tank some of those fights in normal mode

[fullmetalcow]

Source: tPaste That post really really upset me. The fact that there is a lot of warrior tanks shouldn't matter at all. As it stands right now if there was a way to reroll where you converted gear, items and achievements to a new character I would do it in a heartbeat. I bet a lot would. Unfortunately there isn't, so it's more that I feel "Stuck" than "man, I really enjoy playing my underpowered and broken warrior being frustrated all the time". Warriors are "So Popular" because people don't relish the daunting task of changing their mains. I don't enjoy leveling, I enjoy endgame and to feel like we could down this content or that content sooner if I was a different class tank (which I felt the entire time we worked on Sarth 3D with me as MT) makes me wonder why I bother. GC and the rest haven't addressed the sorry state of Prot in months and now this maddening post is all we have to show for it.

This post somewhat sums up my feelings. I have invested a lot of time in my character, and have earned my place in the guilds tanking team, I also have an emotional attachment to him. If changing to a dk tank will enable the guild to get past General, then that's proabbly the right thing for the guild, but I'll have to miss out on that fight. I'm not very good at warrior DPS and haven't collected the gear, as I focus on the tanking role.

If Blizzard enabled us to switch to another tanking class, I'd be somewhat tempted, as the guild doesn't have any active DKs at the moment and a few warrior tanks, but I don't want to give up my warrior.

Switching to a new tank would also set me back in skill. Sure I know the tanking and boss mechanics, but I don't know jack about how to play a DK or paladin tank well. So switching wouldn't really help.

Its summer. Its nice outside. Perhaps I should be riding my bike in the evenings getting some exercise, rather than getting fat playing a game indoors. But I have an attachment to the guild, and friends I have made. Blizzard shouldn't be putting us in a place where quitting seems like the attractive option.

[ivanstone]

Why does the rage on avoidance idea keep rearing its ugly head?

I just don't see the necessity. Yes, having threat scale inversely with improving gear is somewhat counter-intuitive but Warriors already have an all too long list of reactive resource and threat generation abilities.

Wouldn't a pro-active means be more valuable?

Currently a Prot Warrior can pro-actively gain resources via the following:
Auto-attack (doesn't co-operate with HS/Cleave and doesn't generate much rage anyways)
Blood Rage (nice but quickly consumed)
Charge (not practical since you have to move off target to use it but can generate a substantial amount of rage)
Berserker Rage (Unreliable)
Glyph of Heroic Strike
Sword and Board (A step in the right direction)
/sit (risky but damn if it doesn't work)

Meanwhile we already can gain copious resources and threat via reaction. Almost too much since not receiving a steady in take of attacks can be almost crippling. We either rely on damage taken rage (for HS and more) or avoidance (for Revenge or Enrage).

Consider a Bear. Primal Fury makes me a little envious. Last parse I had with me and a bear on a boss was for Kologarn. The Druid gained 440 rage via Fury. On top of that his clearcasting (OoC) procced 18 times vs 15 for my clearcasting (SnB). Arguably SnB is better since its a high rage saving but point is they have both.

Most other tanks have fairly good ways to proactively generate resources and threat.

[Regill]

Rage on avoidance is a quick fix. A band aid that we know blizz could actually code into the game for something smaller than a full expansion release. For example, increasing rage from auto attacks would be a much more ideal solution, but impossible for blizz to implement and properly balance for 3.2 or even 3.3.

Basically rage on avoidance is the best we can hope for in the short term.

P.S. You skipped turning your back, a useful trick when your avoidance levels start climbing with heavy ulduar gear and your doing something easy.

[Midi]

Source: tPaste That post really really upset me. The fact that there is a lot of warrior tanks shouldn't matter at all. As it stands right now if there was a way to reroll where you converted gear, items and achievements to a new character I would do it in a heartbeat. I bet a lot would. Unfortunately there isn't, so it's more that I feel "Stuck" than "man, I really enjoy playing my underpowered and broken warrior being frustrated all the time". Warriors are "So Popular" because people don't relish the daunting task of changing their mains.

This also pretty much sums my own situation up, although I have 7 80's so I'm not so opposed to levelling another toon, but I hate myself each time I wish I could do this.

It's so easy to fall into the trap of whining when you're very frustrated with the current environment. I've been trying to juggle my gear load outs without much success (Have been very unlucky with expertise gear) and I have been called squishy by my healers at one stage compared to our other tanks.

I'm forming the conclusion that there really isn't much I can do at this stage and it's depressing me. Trash I may as well AFK on as nothing sticks when we all go in and, while I have no doubt it's not the intention of the officers, I'm feeling more and more like the raids "sunder bot".

Thing is, when completely honest with myself, I can't fault them at the moment. Our Paladin/Druid tanks are simply better choices at this time.

[Regill]

Source: Midi This also pretty much sums my own situation up, although I have 7 80's so I'm not so opposed to levelling another toon, but I hate myself each time I wish I could do this. It's so easy to fall into the trap of whining when you're very frustrated with the current environment. I've been trying to juggle my gear load outs without much success (Have been very unlucky with expertise gear) and I have been called squishy by my healers at one stage compared to our other tanks. I'm forming the conclusion that there really isn't much I can do at this stage and it's depressing me. Trash I may as well AFK on as nothing sticks when we all go in and, while I have no doubt it's not the intention of the officers, I'm feeling more and more like the raids "sunder bot". Thing is, when completely honest with myself, I can't fault them at the moment. Our Paladin/Druid tanks are simply better choices at this time.

Try gemming for stamina, not expertise, you are costing yourself almost 2k health with your gem and enchant choices. You don't need a ton of hit and expertise to hold aggro on normal encounters, even with top tier dpsers.

Ulduar has an interesting pattern to it. Basically there is a break even point where you go from taking 2 hits and dieing, to surviving those 2 hits. It is easier for a DK to reach that point, or a druid. A warrior has to stack effective health like crazy to reach it. Stamina and Armor stacking everywhere possible.

tldr: Your health is too low.

[tPaste]

Source: Regill Try gemming for stamina, not expertise, you are costing yourself almost 2k health with your gem and enchant choices. You don't need a ton of hit and expertise to hold aggro on normal encounters, even with top tier dpsers. Ulduar has an interesting pattern to it. Basically there is a break even point where you go from taking 2 hits and dieing, to surviving those 2 hits. It is easier for a DK to reach that point, or a druid. A warrior has to stack effective health like crazy to reach it. Stamina and Armor stacking everywhere possible. tldr: Your health is too low.

While that may be something to help with survivability, it only puts us FURTHER behind in threat and damage. Now that's something, without question, we are the worst at of all the tanking classes. Just look at Cider's original post and comments on tight enrage timers.

For the record I am horribly disappointed by the lack of expertise on Ulduar gear. I have to take a HUGE survivability hit in gear (and spec) now to max threat/damage. A concession I don't feel other classes have to debate nearly to the same degree.

[Midi]

Thanks for the reply Regill, I do appreciate the effort. My first reaction to finding out about being squishy is to do exactly what you said and, as tPaste nailed it, my TPS went downhill fast. Playing around in the sandbox I can probably get another 3k HP unbuffed on what I have now but expertise, hit, and even SBV take a dive.

Given my currently available gear (and I also tried the created items too), I would still be two shot by General if I didn't get a block in. It's better, but I have to wonder if the price is worth it.

[Exorator]

The way they are going about these changes as many have stated is the way they have been going about since the start of wrath. Disregarding a classes problems just because it's *most played* because of past uses is pretty pitiful and makes me question myself a lot of the time. Were getting the short end of the stick because were *more popular* and it really just isn't the way for them to keep their warriors pleased (and since theres *SO* many of us it's just worse for them).

Source: Midi Thanks for the reply Regill, I do appreciate the effort. My first reaction to finding out about being squishy is to do exactly what you said and, as tPaste nailed it, my TPS went downhill fast. Playing around in the sandbox I can probably get another 3k HP unbuffed on what I have now but expertise, hit, and even SBV take a dive. Given my currently available gear (and I also tried the created items too), I would still be two shot by General if I didn't get a block in. It's better, but I have to wonder if the price is worth it.

Using Vezax to test how stam stacking is > full expertise/hit cap isn't really the fight to do it on. Vezax hits incredibly hard (20-35k) and there for is pretty impossible to always be *2 shot* because of the fact even in hard mode/all 25 uld gear your health hits around the 46-48k marker which is still not always 2 shot. I currently sit on 45.6k hp raid buffed and i can tell you now its a practicle on chance. Where hit and expertise has a decent affect on your *Tps* it doesn't need to be maxed for you to do fights with good tps. aslong as your *magic* hit capped and have around 20 expertise + your in a good seat. even with *high* end dps with that and some gear there really shouldn't be any issues with TPS (discluding hodir/vez as buffed dps fights.). Currently i can hold 6-7k tps + on proc dependcy So if you happen to still have threat issues my guess is it might be your rotation.(wana try and figure it out gimme a pm). WWS or something would be great aswell.

[tPaste]

Source: Exorator Using Vezax to test how stam stacking is > full expertise/hit cap isn't really the fight to do it on. Vezax hits incredibly hard (20-35k) and there for is pretty impossible to always be *2 shot* because of the fact even in hard mode/all 25 uld gear your health hits around the 46-48k marker which is still not always 2 shot. I currently sit on 45.6k hp raid buffed and i can tell you now its a practicle on chance. Where hit and expertise has a decent affect on your *Tps* it doesn't need to be maxed for you to do fights with good tps. aslong as your *magic* hit capped and have around 20 expertise + your in a good seat. even with *high* end dps with that and some gear there really shouldn't be any issues with TPS (discluding hodir/vez as buffed dps fights.). Currently i can hold 6-7k tps + on proc dependcy So if you happen to still have threat issues my guess is it might be your rotation.(wana try and figure it out gimme a pm). WWS or something would be great aswell.

Actually I would say Vezax illustrates my point just as well. I have MTed the 10-man hard mode (my guild won't let me do 25), given the buffs the ranged get in that fight Vezax can be a very serious threat test...and causes ranged to hold back sometimes more than they would with another tank. ALSO, I think the damage in Vezax is extremely spikey such that I'll be rage starved at points only exacerbating the problem. Now, my threat is "fine" in that we can down the hard mode, but that's not to say they wouldn't have a much better window with a different tank. Sure, we can complete the content but it would be worlds easier with a different class tank...and it's greatly depressing that that's the case.