[jere]

Actually that says the old functionality is gone. Once you are below 35%, you can no longer be taken under 35% nor are you at 35%.

EDIT: unless by stacking you mean the 10/20/30 thing. That's in reference to 1/3, 2/3, and 3/3 talent points.

[PhilS]

First tests on maintankadin showed that Ardent Defender still decreased the damage you take below 35%, BUT if you died and the new Ardent Defender emergency Guardian-Spirit-like effect occured, you get a debuff for 2 minutes that clearly states and got proove that no damage gets reduced by Ardent Defender, not over or under 35%, nowhere.

I hope i'm not misinterpreting the first tests, but it shows that they are aware of the overpowerednes Ardent Defender could have. Maybe they tweak the talent so that only damage you take over 35% gets reduced, nothing under and only if you dont have the debuff.

[Phanx]

Source: jere Actually that says the old functionality is gone. Once you are below 35%, you can no longer be taken under 35% nor are you at 35%.

If you're currently at 40% health, and you take a hit for 10% of your health, you end up at 30% health. Since 30% is less than 35%, it is correct to say that the hit took you under 35% health.

If you're currently at 30% health, and you take a hit for 10% of your health, you end up at 20% health. Since 20% is less than 35%, it is also correct to say that this hit took you under 35% health.

All class talents that have an "under X%" effect work this way; if the end result is that your health percentage is below 35, the effect can occur. My main is a restoration shaman, and the same mechanic is involved with the Nature's Guardian talent. If you take a hit at 40% that puts you at 30%, it triggers. If you take a hit at 30% that puts you at 20%, it triggers.

PhilS's post indicates that early testing shows this mechanic is the same for the new Argent Defender, which would be consistent with other talents with the same wording. It's too bad Blizzard can't come up with a clearer way to word things, as this mechanic has been consistently misunderstood due to the wording since it was first implemented for any class.

[jere]

Source: Phanx If you're currently at 30% health, and you take a hit for 10% of your health, you end up at 20% health. Since 20% is less than 35%, it is also correct to say that this hit took you under 35% health.

If you are just arguing semantics, then what you just said is wrong. Think about the word take and what it means. In order to be taken under 35% health, you cannot already be under 35%. Yes you will be in a position that is under 35% health, but you weren't taken there as you were already there. Though again, that's just semantics (which are fun to play with for sure).

However, you are right, that the testing shows it works that way regardless. So the wording is indeed misleading as you surmise. The caviat to that, though, which is found in PhilS's post is that once the GS effect occurs, you no longer get the damage reduction portion either, which is interesting.

[PhilS]

Source: jere If you are just arguing semantics, then what you just said is wrong. Think about the word take and what it means. In order to be taken under 35% health, you cannot already be under 35%. Yes you will be in a position that is under 35% health, but you weren't taken there as you were already there. Though again, that's just semantics (which are fun to play with for sure). However, you are right, that the testing shows it works that way regardless. So the wording is indeed misleading as you surmise. The caviat to that, though, which is found in PhilS's post is that once the GS effect occurs, you no longer get the damage reduction portion either, which is interesting.

But still doesn't prevent the good, maybe too good, functionality it provides till you are affected by the debuff. A better solution around this would be, that after the AD-GS-proc your damage gets reduced by 30% for 5s or something. This removes the alltime 30% mitigation before the debuff and still is a great CD, but not that good as before. But it removes every aspect AD had.

Let's see what Blizzard comes up with after the QQ.

[Ludiaro]

Source: PhilS But still doesn't prevent the good, maybe too good, functionality it provides till you are affected by the debuff. A better solution around this would be, that after the AD-GS-proc your damage gets reduced by 30% for 5s or something. (...)

Then we would be stuck again with the same functionality of the current AD, just not as linear.

I think it solved the problem of the buff tbh. It's like "you have some serious power on your hands, so don't use it lightly".

Disagree with me if you like, but i guess the problem with this buff being OP is solved. The problem, in my honest opinion, was that people wouldn't be as concerned to heal the paladin all the time, as some people here said it would "trivialize" the encounter. But now, as it puts the debuff on you, you will surely want to be toped even with the 30% reduction, as you wouldn't want to loose it over "slackness". Again, as you under 35%hp it's little help a 30% reduction would do against a boss that is starving to hit you for over 60% of your hp.

If people are concern about trivializing normal encounters, i wouldn't agree cause it isn't every single swing, normal ability that would get you under 35%hp, specially when stamina is a very powerful stat for paladins. It's essentially filling the gaps that existed while tanking cd based encounters like hodir, vezax and those of the same type.

[Ludiaro]

After reading it more carefully, i think i misunderstood your point Phils, and I apologize for any misguiding comment..
If you meant it would reduce the damage the paladin does after the GS proc, and so the out-coming threat, although different from what I though you meant, it's still a poor solution if I can say it, you would be getting the 30% reduct. after abusing of it's power.

But if you meant that the damage reduction only comes after the GS effect, my post is valid to that perspective.

[PhilS]

Your first post is correct, but it was just a short idea i had about balancing the new AD, if necessary!!!, and it doesn't become the old one.
The old one is leapfroggable, this one isn't and you can count on your GS-like effect and a damage reduction for every incoming damage afterwards. But i'm not a developer for blizzard, even if i'm really interested in their workflow.

[Ludiaro]

Hmm I see. It's actually a good idea, but GS puts you in 30% hp which a 30% reduct isn't going to help you and here you are depending a 100% in the healers. The same won't happen in the primary concept blizz has put in this change, although you have to be healed to keep getting the proc, you actually have the chance to save your AD by poping another cd or trinket, whilst if the proc would only come after you would be wasting 2cd's.

Your idea is a good concept actually don't get me wrong(besides need some minor twicks in the timing, maybe GS gets you to 50% like normal priest-a-like, but that takes the fun ou of the priests and seems OP a tank doing the same as a full time healer), just think the other one is more balanced as it is, but we'll have to test it in the ptr.

[Ludiaro]

From what i can say, in the PTR, Ardent defender is perfectly balanced and the concept is somewhat creative. Thou many think that the 30% reduction is the main ability, it's wrong to think so. The 30%reduction on blows that eat more than 65% of your health is the "timer" of the CD. An "hp timer". The main part of this buff is the actual GS-like ability, in an attempt to equalize to the warriors last stand. Just as this hasn't a timer for the 30% health nor a button to click for it, the reduction on damage makes sure it is manageable. Do I think this is an overpowered talent?NO. You still will need to time your movement/other cd's/abilities very well as it wont exactly save you from dyeing just delays it. But it is certainly something very powerful that you don't wanna waste.

[Rennadrel]

Source: Ludiaro Rennadrel: "Wow, they really nerfed paladins big time. I don't care if CS has a shorter CD, reducing it's damage nerfs our damage output, simple. Blizzard is once again proving that they hate pallies as much as they hate priests." Not the point, not only PhilS is right, you are looking from the wrong perspective, one thing that annoyed me while playing ret, and a lot of people would call it "lack of skills", is that we didn't had any kind of rotation to our dps moves, that was what was causing the burst we had, and though we could do good dps in raids, it was constant, was more about the spike dmgs we did when we were out of cd. I played more pvp in retri i have to say, and this is by far a great change imo, now those seconds i would be just watching my pally auto-attack a mage can become more dynamic and spam some buttons(even if they are the same buttons,right?)

Giving Exorcism a cast time just so we can use it on players is a joke. For crying out loud Ret has only 3 primary abilities to use in PvP, everything else is just garbage. Having Exorcism as an instant cast gave us a ranged attack in PvP then they nerfed it not only once, but twice and now they are nerfing it for a 3rd time. Exorcism was a good part of our DPS rotation in raids, but now since it has a cast time it's essentially useless because it will reset cooldowns when you use it. Looks like I am going back Prot.

[Rennadrel]

Apparently I can't edit my post so I have to make a double.

Reducing the damage by 35% on Crusader Strike does not equate to a 2 second cooldown reduction, that doesn't balance things at all. For every 10% it should be 1 second.

[Ludiaro]

As latest PTR patch, the new AD has been nerf. Which i think it was rather uncalled. It's now more like a earlier current AD. The 30%reduction kicks in right after the 35%hp i.e.: a tankadin with 50%hp takes a 40%hit, the first 15% hits normally with 100% of the damage but the next 25% is reduced by 30%. So its like the damage is split so it seems. Imo it's a terrible idea to make it this way. This was a way to solve the problem we had with not having enough CD's, and like this it wont help us. Hell, I even prefer they putting a timer on it and being clickable to leave it as it was then to put it like this. Can't see it helping us. The GS-like thing will proc surely as a boss pulls and enrage ability...right after the 1st or 2nd swing. It was perfectly balanced as it was, even in VoA it wasn't easier to take damage because of this, just filled the gap we had with the CD's, like in the new boss in VoA he gets a type of fozen blows like hodir, and it did help me tank through and wasn't that easy, even for VoA, one time i had to pop the shield wall just to not loose the AD. But I guess i'm the only one thinking like, since the Devs had to change this.

[Liar]

Still no changes on Glyph of Shield Wall/Last Stand? And by changes I mean removal. <_<

[Jorge]

No words on the glyphs. :Sad panda:

Some other thing that slipped by many, I think:
Patch 3.2: Raid lockouts extendable
Raid IDs may be extended for double their duration. I'm not trusting this until official confirmation but it sure would be a nice change.

[marcrasm]

Due to significant talent changes, all death knight talents will be reset for players.
nice my talent change cost is 50-60 g
(i need to change from unholy to blood)