[jere]

The way it is described in the patch notes is actually different than we are saying. The patchnotes seem to indicate that the 30% reduction only applies to the hit that takes you to or below 35% health. They said that instead of doing what it used to do, it will do this, not in addition to.

That's kind of contradictory to what they said in another blue post in my opinion, so I am really curious to see how it turns out.


Ardent Defender: Redesigned. Currently, any damage taken by the paladin while at 35% health or below is reduced. Instead, any attack that would reduce the paladin to 35% health or below has its damage reduced. In addition, once every 2 minutes an attack that would have killed the paladin will fail to kill, and instead set the paladin's health to 10/20/30% of maximum.


That makes it sound like the current implementation will no longer happen and only the new stuff will happen.

[Damonvile]

[quote=jere;242073

I am just trying to be realistic. Saying it is going to trivialize it when nothing changes in the grand scheme of things is polarizing the discussion. If Vezax hit for much less, than yes, but because he hits for so much, your healers are gong to be spam healing you in either case. It doesn' matter if he hits you for 30% less if it still takes 2 hits to kill you without heals in either scenario. Your healers aren't going to be healing you 30% less, they are going to cast the same heals whether you take 30% less damage or not, because 2 hits will kill you either way.

If he hit for less during surge, I would agree with you, but the practicality of the situation changes how trivial it actually is, and 30% less damage per hit doesn't really change anything when he hits for over 75% of your health. In both scenarios it takes 2 hits to kill you without heals. If healers could know ahead of time what your health was going to be after every hit and when you were going to avoid, etc., they could probably better plan out their heals, but honestly, surges become a spam fest, so the healing doesn't change.

[/quote]

Of course it matters..... Why else would you bother debuffing a bosses damage or buffing your own stats. This isn't a turn based game. He doesn't swing then you cast your heals then he swings again......obviously. But that's how some of you make it out to be.

Any damage reduction helps. If you don't get the heals that bring you back to 100% the one with the damage reduction still has a better chance to live with less healing than the one without. Not only will they be sitting higher in health before the next attack lands they'll also have a greater chance the next attack wont kill you.

Yes if you get brought back to full health after every swing, damage reduction doesn't matter but that is a long fight and mana is an issue. There will be times when you don't get topped off and that's when the damage reduction plays a major roll.

[Damonvile]

bah I deleted a bracket :P

[jere]

No one is saying it doesn't matter or that damage reduction is bad. We are discussing the actual effect of it on a practical fight. It definitely isn't a turned based game, but when you look at a worst case scenario, you have to look at that, because that's what a worst case scenario ends up looking like. There are many factors in a fight, and the new AD sounds like it will make them easier. The question currently being discussed (though offtopic at this point) is whether they make the vezax encounter "trivial" or not.

It probably just boils down to a different definition of trivial. I tend to tie it to a change in practical application rather than just theoretical changes. To me just saying "30% less damage means it is now trivial" isn't really looking at the big picture. In the case of the Vezax fight on this particular topic, I look at a) can the tanks do something different now (nope, still do the same things), b) can you reduce the number of healers and gain anything (nope, you are still going to want the same number of healers due to wanting to avoid a 2 shot scenario), or c) are the healers going to be able change how they heal (nope, still a spam healing session to avoid a two shot).

I guess with me, I just differentiate between "easier" and "trivial". It may be that others don't, and that is fine. I think AD will make the Vezax encount much easier, but still not trivial if you follow. I could easily be wrong. I am often. We are just speculating afterall. Plus a lot of this, like the definition of what makes things trivial, is based on personal opinion. That's good too, as long as we don't get into personal attacks and stuff (then things just devolve into flame wars etc.). My guess is Garbid thinks you can now use less healers. I personally don't (and he may not, that's just a guess), so it probably just is a difference of opinion.

[Sigismund]

Source: Lore Block Value: The amount of bonus block value on all items has been doubled. This does not affect the base block value on shields or block value derived from strength. Paladins Shield of Righteousness: Now deals 100% of shield block value as damage instead of 130%.

So, gaining ~100-200 Block Value traded off against losing a 30% damage modifier? I think I'll need to re-evaluate the available tank gear to balance the threat loss.

[Alent]

Source: jere The question currently being discussed (though offtopic at this point) is whether they make the vezax encounter "trivial" or not.

I think the reason "Trivial" is being tossed around is under the current verbage of the revision, the paladin tanking no longer has to actually watch for the enrage, as he has a permanent cooldown mitigating every single attack instead of having to actively time out Divine Protection and Aura Mastery + armor/dodge trinkets. (although he will most certainly want to just because of the limitations in that fight on healing.)

[jere]

And that's definitely a good point! It would be crazy if it went live (not the good kind, but the bad kind).

[PhilS]

My understanding about the new AD is:

- If you get hit for over 65% of your max HP, this hit will be reduced by 30%, but all DMG you take below 35% will not be reduced like it is now

- if a hit would kill you, you will still stand with 30% of your max hp

So for the new AD to kick in a paladin always has to be over 35% of his max HP for the 30% DMG reduction. Below 35% you will be hit like every other tank, if the cheat death function isn't available.

These changes make AD a really really good, maybe overpowered talent, but loosing the 30% DMG reduction below 35% of your max HP is something not everyone is calculating here.

[Roarc]

Not too throw fule on the fire but if the new AD works as some think, i.e. a blow that would put you under 35% HP will reduce the totalt damage by 30%, would perhaps not trivialize a lot of events in the current game, but sure make them a lot easier - Vezax included. I don't think the enrage phase is where the pallie would be in huge favor but outside of that (the enrage would however be healable, esp. in 10 man, where today it probably is not). Also when you have things like P3 of Yoggie with mobs doing massive blows and having a passive shield wall against them. You can contest "healers will always spam heal you" but that's not always the case (esp. not Vezax Hard Mode) and having the 30% "extra life" would be extremely over-powered. I don't know how many times I've died due to a ≈2K over kill > this mechanic would give pallies buffer much greater than this in many events.

It wouldn't trivialize content but make them much easier. But also as many have said this will likely not go live and will likely hold an internal cool down of some sort.

The lower damage of paladins shield slam is pretty natural imo. The class already has high damage and threat and doesn't need to excel even more in the area.

Regards
Roarc

[Biggensak]

Source: Bung What I dont like is the change to the emblem system. It's unfair to those players who busted their ass in naxx 25 for months just to get ulduar geared. I guess I understand the need becuase unless you are in one of the top guilds on your server I doubt you have defeated all of the bosses in Ulduar in any mode. I know I havent. If you are ulduar geared you probably have no reason to do heroics or naxx so at least now you have some reasons for doing them again.

Fair is a 4 letter word...

With all due respect, there is noting new here - Blizz has a history of making content easier/more accessible as it ages within the game. Is it "fair" that people who ran Uldar after the various nerfs to Razorscale, XT, etc.. got the same rewards as the folks who ran after? Does it negate the accomplishment or skill of the group that ran the content when it was more difficult? Having an easier time picking up gear will not make someone a better player, it just removes an arbitrary obstacle from their progress.

I think Blizz realizes that after the initial rush into new content a significant gap appears between the folks in raiding guilds and the more casual elements of the game. As the more advanced players gear up they refuse to group with people who do not overgear the content (LFM Uldar-10, be geared - will wow-heroes...) which effectively locks a portion of the population out of the content. Let the progression guilds earn their sense of accomplishment by defeating content while it's still tuned to a more difficult level and then open it up to the broader population by making it easier to pre-gear.

I run a small 10's raiding guild and will be happy to see our heroics/OS/vault/nax 10 gearing runs be more productive via the Conquest badges to help get people Uldar geared more quickly. The gear itself is NOT a substitute for skill but will at least remove a somewhat arbitrary barrier in getting newer players into the raiding game. Given the relative sloppiness of most Nax raids I'd actually rather bring a fresh raider from heroics and teach them right in Uldar versus having them pick up sloppy habits in Nax.

[Bung]

I can respect that....after digesting the changes for a few days now im looking forward to them. Being maxed out on gear that drops from Naxx 25 the emblem change will allow me to actually get better gear....so I might play wow longer. I guess that is Blizzard's main goal...to keep you playing.

[Biggensak]

My impressions as a Warrior tank / engineer / miner... woot!

The block value + AttT buffs are nice from a threat/DPS perspective and will make for some interesting prot PvP options. I wish they'd done something to reduce warrior DPS dependancy on heroic strike and/or deep woudns (seriously, 30-50% of my damage continues to be from skills that are not even in the prot tree?) and looked at rage generation in prot builds... but I'll take it.

The engineering buffs are fantastic, it's like they went right down the wish list... and I'll certainly take some more health from mining, woot!

[Medemer]

Medemer opined:
Source: Medemer
I'm sure there'll be more/less to come when it goes live.

Medemer
--
Which caused Hit Me to respond with:

Source: Hit Me I don't think there will be. <stuff snipped for brevity>

Which bit don't you agree with? My opinion that there will be more to come when it goes live, or my opinion that will be less to come when it goes live? I was hedging

I agree with the skepticism, though.

As for the AD stuff making pallies overpowered. Sure, so what? It might irritate the non-pallies for a while, but if it's truly OP it will get nerfed. No point getting too upset or exercised over it, in my humble opinion. DK's were truly overpowered, and now Blizzard is sledging them hard.

Have fun while it lasts, use your pally tanks (no I'm not one) to your guild/raid's best advantage and adapt when things change again.


Medemer
--
Ommmmmmm.

[Ludiaro]

though many people don't know if the previous affect from AD is going to stick with the new one, i personally think it's rather pointless as the problem with pallies in this was that we couldn't (i.e.) tank Vezax, due to the lack of CD. As you get low as 35% of your health your better off dead, 12.5k hp isn't going to save you, so AD, as it is in ulduar, isn't worth it. Though I do have to agree the talent seems like pushing it, it also seems lackluster in some point, especially when you don't have control over it. You could say you don't need power over something that will automatically save you. But imagine this: before the enrage of vezax one of the healers falls asleep and doesn't heal you enough poping the proc of the 30% dmg reduction(presuming it will have ICD) next moment it pops enrage and you have the shield wall on CD. what exactly will save you? the cheesy new "GS"? so you get killed twice?vezax doesn't hit that slowly you know?
Don't get me wrong, I do want a balance to exist between tanks! And I'm not saying this because I'm mainly a protection paladin, but i do not think this is as OP as a lot of people are thinking it is. just think something is missing, like a "controller". Like when activated every blow that would put you below 35%hp would be reduced by 30%(or could even be a higher amount) and the "GS" proc could be a passive bonus of the talent even?
TBH i would prefer they would do something to block=spelldmg reduction and the different abilities we have like shield block or holy shield would boost our BV by a % instead. would be a better reason to stack block rating and value, and i think it would fix 2 type of tanks at once, just have to make sure the amount are right so it doesn't get OP comparing to druids and DK's, or even between pallies and wars since wars would have more cd. but the timing of HS would fix that gap i think.

[01Bora]

Source: Lyco Wouldn't that be something. Guilds struggling in Ulduar going back to naxx so they can just farm equally levelled gear. Lets hope it does not come to that. Blizzard needs to stop rewarding the Teribads and Lazy's.

So on that note I am really curious...what percentage of your total gear comes from badge gear? I feel like it is maybe 20-30%...maybe I am way off on that number, but I enjoy getting the drops from raiding. If anything they are just giving people an opportunity to maybe gear their alts a bit quicker.

I am not really good at theory crafting and typically go with gear suggestions made on this site so do you think the boost to AttT is significant enough to "recover" some of the dps lost to Fury's?

[Rennadrel]

Wow, they really nerfed paladins big time. I don't care if CS has a shorter CD, reducing it's damage nerfs our damage output, simple. Blizzard is once again proving that they hate pallies as much as they hate priests.

[Jaden]

Hello.

I was really curious when I saw this talent:
Threat of Thassarian: New 3-point talent. When dual-wielding, your Death Strikes, Obliterates, Plague Strikes, Blood Strikes and Frost Strikes have a 30/60/100% chance to also deal damage with your off-hand weapon. Off-hand strikes are roughly one half the effect of the original strike.

So, I was wondering can Death Knights Dual Wield Tanking...at last? (I mean faster threat building) Or is it just another DPS mechanic?

[PhilS]

Source: Rennadrel Wow, they really nerfed paladins big time. I don't care if CS has a shorter CD, reducing it's damage nerfs our damage output, simple. Blizzard is once again proving that they hate pallies as much as they hate priests.

That's a false assumption in my opinion.
You should always think about damage in units of DPS.
If a ability has a 6 second cooldown and does 2000 dmg, the same ability with 4 second cooldown has to do 1333 dmg to be equal in DPS.

They nerfed the damage portion for PvP-purposes, but equalized this change for PvE with a shorter CD. But a 4 second CD could also be good in a PvP-scenario and increase your damage while at your target, maybe.

[Ludiaro]

Rennadrel:
"Wow, they really nerfed paladins big time. I don't care if CS has a shorter CD, reducing it's damage nerfs our damage output, simple. Blizzard is once again proving that they hate pallies as much as they hate priests."

Not the point, not only PhilS is right, you are looking from the wrong perspective, one thing that annoyed me while playing ret, and a lot of people would call it "lack of skills", is that we didn't had any kind of rotation to our dps moves, that was what was causing the burst we had, and though we could do good dps in raids, it was constant, was more about the spike dmgs we did when we were out of cd. I played more pvp in retri i have to say, and this is by far a great change imo, now those seconds i would be just watching my pally auto-attack a mage can become more dynamic and spam some buttons(even if they are the same buttons,right?)

[Ludiaro]

UPDATE

Protection
-Shield of Righteousness now causes Holy damage equal to 100% of your block value (down from 130%) and now causes High threat.
-Greater Blessing of Sanctuary now also increases stamina by 10%.
-Blessing of Sanctuary now also increases stamina by 10%.
-Hand of Reckoning now causes [ 50% of AP + 1 ] Holy damage if the target is not currently targeting you.
-Righteous Fury now lasts until cancelled.
-Ardent Defender has been redesigned - Damage that would take you below 35% health or taken while you are at 35% health is reduced by 10/20/30%. In addition, attacks which would otherwise kill you cause you to be healed up to 10/20/30% of your maximum health. This healing effect cannot occur more often than once every 2 min.

So it seems the previous effect is actually going to stack. Still can't see it actually make a diference but i'm actually excited to see how will the total talent work in raid content.