[Alent]

Source: jere How does it Trivialize Vezax? Surge lasts 10 seconds. I must be missing something.

Every swing would drop you below 35% health, thus causing every hit to be reduced by 30%. in effect, permanent icebound fortitude vs Vezax.

Since apparently GC has confirmed that the 2 minute ICD is only for the cheat death effect.

[jere]

Source: Alent Every swing would drop you below 35% health, thus causing every hit to be reduced by 30%. in effect, permanent icebound fortitude vs Vezax. Since apparently GC has confirmed that the 2 minute ICD is only for the cheat death effect.

They stead "instead", indicating it no longer has the old functionality. However, even if it was still there, if Vezax drops you below 35% health at all, the next hit kills you. He hits for over 75% of your health, so the moment you hit AD range, AD will no longer save you (barring the 2 min save, which is why the 10 seconds matters).

For reference, if a boss can hit you for 50% health, reducing it by 30% gives you a hit for 35% of your health. Vezax hits harder than that. He hits for over 75% of your health (which becomes over 52.5% of your health after AD), so even with AD, two hits will kill you.

So what happens is Vezax hits you once, then you either die on the second shot or AD save kicks in once. If the save does kick in that time and you get healed up, the next hit drops you below 50% or 35% health (depending on if it reduces the whole hit or just the portion past AD range), and the hit after that kills you before the 10 seconds is up. Even if the second hit gets reduced by AD, it still hits for too much to survive.

**DISCLAIMER** I am not saying the ability is bad or won't work (I think it is great), but saying it trivializes it doesn't seem realistic.

[Garbid]

Warrior 42k hp, gets hit for 27k, he needs 11k heals to survive next hit, and then close to 30k heals to survive the third. So needs over 40k heals to survive 3 hits.

Paladin 42k hp with AD gets hit for (27K - (27/0,7))=19k need 0k heal to survive second hit, then 15k heal to survive the third... so to survive 3 hits he needs only 15k heals.

Notice with block changes Warriors can spike dmg from Vezax for up to 30k dmg when not blocking, but paladins are guaranteed blocking and with the new changes for at least 3k.

You still don't think it trivialises it ? I'm not talking about how many hits you can survive before you die "without heals". With heals incoming, you need 4 healers on the paladin where you need 7 on the warrior for the same effect. You still don't think it trivializes the encounter ?

[Knighterrant81]

Source: Cedix I do not understand this change ? I will only be able to buy old season gear with my 2vs2 rating ? forcing player to go 3vs3 and 5vs5 to get new gear. <i don't like this change at all

They're trying to encourage people to play the bigger brackets, because they feel like 2v2 puts a magnifying glass on spec/comp balance, whereas the bigger brackets rely a little more on coordination.

I play as a warrior tank in pve, but as a Disc Priest in arena (really, just another type of tank when you get right down to it :P ). What I predict is when more people move to the 3s and the 5s format, its going to become glaringly obvious how much some of the melee plate specs and comps rock some of the lighter armored specs. That, and Mortal Strike type effects do too much, so that healers are either a) overpowered against teams without MS or b) rocked by MS specs they can't escape from (disc priest vs. rogue with no poison removal for instance :O)

[jere]

Source: Garbid Warrior 42k hp, gets hit for 27k, he needs 11k heals to survive next hit, and then close to 30k heals to survive the third. So needs over 40k heals to survive 3 hits. Paladin 42k hp with AD gets hit for (27K - (27/0,7))=19k need 0k heal to survive second hit, then 15k heal to survive the third... so to survive 3 hits he needs only 15k heals. Notice with block changes Warriors can spike dmg from Vezax for up to 30k dmg when not blocking, but paladins are guaranteed blocking and with the new changes for at least 3k. You still don't think it trivialises it ? I'm not talking about how many hits you can survive before you die "without heals". With heals incoming, you need 4 healers on the paladin where you need 7 on the warrior for the same effect. You still don't think it trivializes the encounter ?

You are making up some non realistic numbers. First of all, on 10 man alone, Vezax hits me for 32k damage, not 27k. Secondly, with the changes paladins will gain on the order of less than 100 block value if they are gearing for boss fights (we don't gear for block value against hard hitters). 3k block value is not a realistic number at all, especially against bosses like Vezax.

Finally, whether warriors are worse or better than paladins has no bearing on if it trivializes it or not. What does have bearing is if it makes the mechanic an afterthought period. Sure, warriors need help and buffs. That's fine. I agree. Doesn't have a lick to do with if it trivializes the fight for paladins, so lets not turn this into a class vs class discussion. It has nothing to do with the mini topic we are on and only serves to start up needless flamefests.

If a paladin has 42k hit points and Vezax hits for 30k damage (a value between ours to be fair). AD range starts at 35% health or 14700 health.

If the entire 30k hit is reduced by 30%, it takes off 21000 damage, or 50%. Some amount of healing must land at this point to save the paladin or the next hit he will die. If Vezax parries, then it is game over (unless the 2 min save kicks in). Luckily a HoT landed for some amount. Lets be unrealistic and say 5k healing, boosting you up to 26000 health and the next hit lands and takes you down to 5000 health. You now need 16000 healing to land before the 3rd hit, which is doable, but not trivial. Healers have to move around during this fight to get mana from the pools, so you won't have all the healers on you at any given one point guaranteed. At this point, your healers are stuck in catch up mode for the remainder of the 10 seconds, hoping he doesn't parry and that their heals land in time.

That is of course assumes the entire hit going into AD range is reduced by 30%, which we don't know since haven't seen the PTR yet. It could just as easily only reduce the portion that brings you into AD range, so that 30k hit becomes a 27300 + 0.7*2700 = 29190 hit, bringing you to 12810 Health. At this point, you will need to be healed by over (14700-12810 + 9000) = 10890 before the 2nd hit lands and once it does by an additional 23700 to survive the 3rd hit. Here again, the healers are playing catchup with each hit, hoping they don't have to move and that nothing goes crazy.

Just as a summary, I am not saying it doesn't make things better. You can clearly see from your example and my examples both that the ability has potential to really reduce damage. But I certainly don't think it makes it trivial. Healers will still be playing catchup the whole time, hoping nothing goes wrong. It's not like they won't even notice his attacks anymore (that's trivialization)...They will still notice his attacks and struggle. They will struggle less than before, but the struggle will be there still. To trivialize it, AD would need to make it to where you could survive more than one hit without healing (and honestly more than 2 if really want to call something trivializing). AD in the new form will only save you from one hit without heals (unless the 2 min save comes in, which is definitely possible but not reliable).

[Cookie]

Source: Lanore I know this is TANKspot, but I have a disc priest and I'm confused by blizzards change to pennance. Pre 3.1 Pennance had a 8 second CD (10sec base CD w/ 10% reduced from talents). In 3.1 they gave us a Glyph that reduced CD by another 10% making me happy with a 6.4 sec CD. So now they are taking the Base CD up to 12 seconds? If they really want the CD to be 8 seconds total, why not just remove the glyph from the game and take it back to pre 3.1 status? At least then I could put something else in the glyph spot... the evolution of this makes no sense.

On the official wow forums, GC posted saying that a lot of disc priests currently don't use much other than PWS pr POM due to the low pwnance cd (which I personally thing is BS, but ok, his opinion), and that they didn't want to just remove the glyph to give us a free glyph slot as compensation for the nerf.

[Cookie]

Source: Cookie On the official wow forums, GC posted saying that a lot of disc priests currently don't use much other than PWS pr POM due to the low penance cd (which I personally thing is BS, but ok, his opinion), and that they didn't want to just remove the glyph to give us a free glyph slot as compensation for the nerf.

[Regill]

The new ardent defender clearly needs an internal cooldown on the first portion of the ability. Otherwise it is a permanent 30% damage reduction on any boss which can hit for >65% of a tanks health in a single hit.

So for a 42k health paladin, that means the boss needs to hit for 27.3k or more per hit. Plenty of bosses manage such high numbers in hard modes.

I wouldn't say it 'trivializes' the encounter, but it does push paladins drastically ahead of any other tank for those encounters. Even if the boss is only pushing out 20k a hit, its still huge, becuase its always up.

Think of it this way. Icebound fortitude had to be nerfed to 2 mins, why? Because you could have it up 12 seconds out of every 60 and get the mitigation.

Clearly it is not ok to have a permanently up 30% damage reduction, the very thought is ridiculous. I'd be suprised to see this go live.

As for the guardian effect, they should put a damage cap on it, namely the amount of overkill it can protect against, maybe a % of the paladins health, like other pally defensive abilities. This would prevent it from being exploited on effects which are intended to be a complete instagib. Your not supposed to survive some spells, your supposed to move or whatever.

[mattdeeze]

I think the Emblem change is pure win. At one time i was a war tank in a guild that was struggling in kara. The change to badges allowed myself and my guild as a whole to move into higher tier BC raids and really learn how to raid.

As it is now I am the second best geared player on my realm (according to wow-heroes) and my guild is quite competive on the progression front.

I would never want to deny anyone else the chance to improve thierself in any way possible. Or to deny them the chance to become raid ready thru another means rather than working every single raid to get every single item to allow them to move up another tier.

Crying about the change to emblems is very elitist and really has no place here. There are diamonds in the rough out there who just have not yet had the chance to get the gear to really prove what they can do, and this gives them a chance to get there.

I didn't read the thread all the way to the end (5 pages long currently) so this may seem out of place but some of the early comments about emblems seemed to cry "we had to earn our emblems the hard way, boo hoo". Yes, I did too, And I enjoyed every second of it.

[Daeri]

ARdent Defender will 100% certainly have an internal cooldown. Remember Will of the Necropolis? It was weaker, and still recieved internal cooldown.

It's going to happen, but nice change in any case.

[jere]

Yeah I don't see it going live as is (not that I would complain).

[Garbid]

Whats with this nitpicking Jere ? Are you so happy finally being overpowered that you want to "trivialize" it ?

Source: jere You are making up some non realistic numbers. First of all, on 10 man alone, Vezax hits me for 32k damage, not 27k. Secondly, with the changes paladins will gain on the order of less than 100 block value if they are gearing for boss fights (we don't gear for block value against hard hitters). 3k block value is not a realistic number at all, especially against bosses like Vezax.

Was actually talking about normal white hits from Vezax 25man without the enrage. Bring in the enrage and you still take 30% less dmg. If you can do with 7 healers taking 100% dmg, how can it not be trivialized when you suddenly only need 4 healers ?

If you prefer using enrage number, change 27k into 39.

And wasn't trying to start a warrior vs pala fight. As I stated, you get a smoother ride where we take a spikier path. Both ending up at the same dmg taken.

Source: jere If the entire 30k hit is reduced by 30%, it takes off 21000 damage, or 50%. Some amount of healing must land at this point to save the paladin or the next hit he will die. If Vezax parries, then it is game over (unless the 2 min save kicks in). Luckily a HoT landed for some amount. Lets be unrealistic and say 5k healing, boosting you up to 26000 health and the next hit lands and takes you down to 5000 health. You now need 16000 healing to land before the 3rd hit, which is doable, but not trivial. Healers have to move around during this fight to get mana from the pools, so you won't have all the healers on you at any given one point guaranteed. At this point, your healers are stuck in catch up mode for the remainder of the 10 seconds, hoping he doesn't parry and that their heals land in time.

If healers are moving during enrage, then they are just very bad at timing, find new ones. And saying 16k isn't trivial to heal, with holy light critting for 20k?? 1 healer could keep a pala tank up in 10man.
And talking about your healers being stuck in "catch-up mode for the remainder of those 10 sec". What about other tanks who take 30% more dmg ?

No matter what you are doing, as long as it can be done in the first place, when it becomes 30% easier, it's been trivialized.

[DKTankaholic]

Frost Presence: %10 Bonus Health Reduced to 6% bonus stamina.

Ouch..........

IBF Cooldown increased to 2 mins.

I saw that one coming, and it's not so bad

Veteran of the Third War: Stamina bonus reduced to 1/2/3%

So more health lost

Toughness: Talent now grants 2/4/6/8/10% armor instead of 3/6/9/12/15%

oh well, roll w/ the punches... since were gonna feel it a little more now, I just say BRING IT ON!

[Horyclone]

I'm with Jere in that I'm not very confident that the change to Ardent Defender will make to live as is, especially considering it hasn't been tested on the PTR's at all.

However the current chagne doesn't do much except to make the effect a little less conditional. Previously Ardent Defender only reduced damage if you were already below 35% life. Considering the 42k HP tank, 35% of that life total would be 14.7k HP. A 32k hit takes the tank down to 10k HP. 4.7k of that damage is now reduced by 30%, shaving a whole 1410 damage, I may have well counted that as a block. If your taking issue with the ability saving someone who is below that 14.7k mark, well that's all it does right now, and I don't think it's proved to be over powered in it's current state.

I like the change, makes the talent points more valuable, I'll be interested to see how effective a cooldown with no real control by the tank, but something is always better than nothing.

As for the BoS change, I like it for 5 mans, as I have enough health that I use BoS just for the mana as is. Also, Raids don't always bring 4 paladins, so it's nice to keep a 10 minute BoS on myself without giving up the 10% stam when we have 3 or less paladins.

[Vorps]

If it works like Will of the Necropolis, then it doesn't only reduce the damage that reduced you below 35%. It will shave off 30% of the entire hit that took you to or below 35%. So a 60k hit from 25s General while enraged would become a 42k hit. If the Paladin has over 42k health, and can be consistently healed to full every hit during enrage, Ardent Defender effectively increases their health by 30%. Which is essentially like having a 30% shield wall up 100% of the time during enrages.

The patch notes do not list any details. I'm thinking it's not gonna be 30% reduction any longer, and it will also have an ICD. Basically it will become Will of the Necropolis with the secondary effect of cheating death every 2 mins.

Otherwise what is now us swimming in DK tears will become drowning in them.

[Ricovega]

Some great changes and massive improvement, blizzard seem switched on and focused and hope things keep improving

[Gustu]

Although i am glad pallies got some love, warriors need some loving as well. As in more then one line

Though DKs nerfs were needed think they might have gone abit overboard, the CD change should have been enough, but think they pushed alittle too far.

[Roarc]

The DK changes where needed to put them in line with the other tank-classes. And any DK that QQ's about "we have no shield, warriors and paladins do" should look into their class and compare with "the shield bearers" who have until now scaled worse in every area - including armor and health - compared to the poor people with out shields.

Frost Presence: %10 Bonus Health Reduced to 6% bonus stamina.
- This can be seen as harsh but a HP bonus in the end is over-powered compared to other classes. Enchants, flasks and other buffs get shifted in favour of the class getting +HP % over +STAM %.

IBF Cooldown increased to 2 mins.
Good! All classes have to deal with events similar now given the new Pallie AD isn't the over-powered nature it could be.

Veteran of the Third War: Stamina bonus reduced to 1/2/3%
Again, quite good I think. In the current game non-blood tanks out scale Warriors by almost 10% in EH and Blood DK's more so. This again brings things into line of balance.

Toughness: Talent now grants 2/4/6/8/10% armor instead of 3/6/9/12/15%
Interesting change that will push again the EH kings down into balance. With all the changes there is a slight risk they actually end up in the low-end of the table, time will tell…

Change to Ardent Defender
Very interesting change, but I have my concerns.

1. The built in "cheat death" feature is cool but the tank has no control over this. Good to have but it still only leaves the paladin with 1 controllable CD. This might be Blizzard's intent however looking at the DK changes.

2. The damage reduction with sub 35% damage blows. If it reduces the total hit hitting below 35% it's going to be over-powered, if it only reduces the damage portion hitting blew 35% it's fine and gives the paladin some extra EH. If it actually is the former (to compensate for say the lack of last stand) the internal cool down has to be quite high which then again gives the paladin 2 talents that can save their life but they have little control over.

All in all AD is an interesting, different, talent, that I hope blizzard Balances out.

And I'll also repeat what others have said: we are NOT getting double block value, some of our items are. In my current gear I'll scale by about 10% in block value which I think most Ulduar geared tanks will. SBV gear will scale a lot more and we might see some interesting use of it at places, but not likely in progression / main tank play.

The Armor to the Teeth change is of course nice but I still am waiting for the proper rewramp of warrior issues out there that blizzard has acknowledged but so far done nothing or little about.

Regards
Roarc

[jere]

Source: Garbid Whats with this nitpicking Jere ? Are you so happy finally being overpowered that you want to "trivialize" it ?

Let's try to leave personal attack style comments out of the conversation. If you are worried about my motives, please see my post before this one. I think the ability is overpowered. I don't see it as going live. Nor do I really want it to (I joke about not being too upset, but honestly, no tank should be significantly ahead of the rest). Comments like that do not belong here at tankspot, and please do not assume my motives. Just because a person doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they have alterier motives by default.

I am just trying to be realistic. Saying it is going to trivialize it when nothing changes in the grand scheme of things is polarizing the discussion. If Vezax hit for much less, than yes, but because he hits for so much, your healers are gong to be spam healing you in either case. It doesn' matter if he hits you for 30% less if it still takes 2 hits to kill you without heals in either scenario. Your healers aren't going to be healing you 30% less, they are going to cast the same heals whether you take 30% less damage or not, because 2 hits will kill you either way.

If he hit for less during surge, I would agree with you, but the practicality of the situation changes how trivial it actually is, and 30% less damage per hit doesn't really change anything when he hits for over 75% of your health. In both scenarios it takes 2 hits to kill you without heals. If healers could know ahead of time what your health was going to be after every hit and when you were going to avoid, etc., they could probably better plan out their heals, but honestly, surges become a spam fest, so the healing doesn't change.

I could see this trivializing some other encounters, but from a practical standpoint, I don't see Vezax being one of them. He hits too hard in comparison to tank health for the 30% to push you over into the appropriate range, and healers can't in advance know enough to change healing styles. 30% less damage only makes the encounter trivial if you can practically make use of it, which very few, if any, can for Vezax's surge.

In either case, I don't see it going live as is. I think AD would be too powerful.

[Hypatia]

Hmm. It is difficult to see, mathematically, how the new AD could be anything but overpowered, if it works as advertised.

Let's assume that when AD activates, it's only the damage below the 35% mark that gets reduced. (i.e. if you're at 40% health and receive a hit for 10% of your health, half of that damage hits as normal for 5%, taking you to 35% alone, and the other half hits for 70% reduced damage.) This isn't necessarily how it will work, but it's a reasonable lower bound on the damage reduction, assuming that it's still 30% reduction.

If this is indeed the case, then this multiplies a paladin's EH by 115%. (65%/1.0 damage factor + 35%/0.7 damage factor).

If the ability effects the entire hit for any hit that will reduce the paladin below 65%, then the impact will be much greater, up to a maximum of 142% EH for attacks that come within an inch of killing the paladin.


So, either this isn't how the ability is supposed to work (it has an internal cooldown we haven't been told about yet, or it only activates on the transition from >35% to <35%, or something else I haven't thought of), or the ability will need some adjustment to be more balanced.


To sum up: Yeah, we need to see this in action before we know how it really works, but the way it's described in the patch notes is OP.