[clavarnway]

Source: Petninja An overzealous OT that is doing more threat than the MT, with all due respect, is an OT who is doing a better job than the MT.

Wrong. So wrong. An OT can easily get caught in mindset of "do as much threat as possible", but a MT has to watch everything - boss debuffs, where your healers are (did they get feared out of range and you need to Shield Wall?), debuffs on yourself, etc.

The OT's job is to help kill the boss, that doesn't always mean going max threat, and on a fight like Reliquary of Souls where if he switches targets he enrages, that's a pretty f'in stupid idea.

[Muffin Man]

Source: thugthedum Now, I had to give up three points in shield specialization; this would have increased damage shield damage for sure, but not by too sizable a margin; I guess 3% more block would have meant 3% more damage from damage shield. 307 dots, average of 123.

Actually, 5/5 shield spec wouldn't change your damage output. 3% more shield block would just push 3% unimitigated hits off the combat table.

It does lower your damage intake for sure. But I have my doubts as to how significant that would be on a boss (for trash it would probably matter, but then... it's trash).

[influxreptile]

Source: Foolishness I tried that talent build over the weekend. Impale kicked ass, deep wounds did not. Best case scenario you will be doing an extra 30 DPS on each of your targets with deep wounds. That's with a slow epic weapon. Really, 30 dps is so insignificant I would rather have 1 minute less on my shield wall cooldown, or imp disarm to improve my raid DPS on trash. Or I could have 2/2 bloodrage to give me a shield slam off the bat. Any of these other talents could be considered just as useful as an extra 30 DPS. I think pushing deep wounds so hard is really just a reflection of your personal agenda which seems to be aimed at doing as much damage as humanly possible as a warrior tank, which I think is more of a novelty. To be blunt, I think claiming deep wounds to be baseline is just wrong. I would agree with impale, but not deep wounds.

Could you show how it's 30 dps at best ? At best, in the case of Thaddius I did 4000dps rounded down this week, and 22.4% of that damage came from deep wounds. I'm using the proposed spec here with the difference of having Anger management and only 1/5 cruelty. I'm currently tanking with Calamity's Grasp to check the value of the best slow weapons in the game. 22.4% is of course an extreme value due to the huge buffs at Thaddius, but even at benchmark fights like patchwerk it proves to be atleast 10-12%, up to 15% if all melee/bleed buffs are present. That's atleast 300dps if not more.

[Ciderhelm]

I pulled just above 2.5k dps tonight on Patchwerk without a Feral Druid or Fury Warrior in the raid. I intend to do better next week. We ought to set up a Teron Gorefiend thread for Wrath off this encounter.

[influxreptile]

Btw just for the record these are the calculations I recently made on the regular Warrior forums. The results proved that fast weapons still beat slow weapons on damage even with deep wounds spec, as long as your rage resources are infinite. So for that matter Last Laugh should beat Calamity's Grasp at Patchwerk when it comes to both dps and tps output.

Calamitys grasp 445.38 weapon damage 2.6 weapon speed (before haste) Last laugh 274.56 weapon damage 1.6 weapon speed --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1) Heroic strike damage over a 21 second timespan :

Formula : weapondamage + 495
Calculations:
a) Calamity's Grasp : 445.38x8 + 495x8 + 0.48x445.38x(8/3)x120%.
-The first part is weapondmg x number of heroic strikes
-The second is the bonus damage x number of heroic strikes
-The last part is deep wounds value x weapondmg x average crits x trauma/mangle modifier.
-As a crit value I took 33%, based on : 10% basic crit + 15% from talents + 5% rampage + agility totems should be around 33%.
-The same formula was applied for Last laugh, coming to results of :

Calamity's grasp : 3593+3960+684.10= 8237.1
Last laugh : 3569+6435+ 685.30= 10689

2) Bleed effects

A) Deep wounds procs on crits. Chances to proc during those 21seconds are based on crit%xheroic strikesx(Global cds in 21 seconds -1). The -1 stands for a gcd used on rend, which obviously can't proc deep wounds.




B) The question now is will the bleed dmg from those 13 gcds involving 1 rend + the extra devastate damage + calamity's dps stats undo that difference ?

-Small note: Calamity's grasp will use up only 96 rage on heroic strikes during that time VS 156 for last laugh, which also plays a role in overgeared situations, which is kind of where you want to test crazy stuff like this.

13 gcd's of which one (rend) can't proc deep wounds. Working with an estimation of 3 revenges, 4 shield slams, 4 devastates and a thunder clap. (3x0.18 + 4x 0.33 + 4x 0.18 + 1x 0.33)/12=~3 deep wound procs per 21 seconds.

I. 0.48x445.38x3= 1337.58 dmg for Calamity's Grasp
II. 0.48x445.38x3= 640.8 damage for Last Laugh

This portion of the calculations is in favor of Calamity's Grasp, simply due to higher max damage.

Difference after heroic strikes + deep wounds :
9574 VS 11329 so far.

Applying trauma modifier makes the difference slightly bigger : 1605.1 and 768.9 respectively.

Brings the scores to 9842.2 VS 11457.9 damage done with hs+deep wounds.




C)

Other factors are
C1) Rend
C2) Devastate
C3) Weapon stats

C1) rend

It's dmg consists of 5 subparts

I) main hand dmg (as displayed before)
II) attack power / 14 x weapon speed
III) base damage
IV) mob health
V) bleed modifier

Using "modest" stats I'll go out from a 4k average AP value for these calculations. Note that the chose AP value does not really matter when it comes to the difference between the outcomes.

Calamity's grasp :
Ia) 445.38
IIa) 4000/14x2.6= 742.86
IIIa) 315
IVa) 35% more dmg 1/4th of the time = 8.75% modifier
Va) Trauma = 20% modifier
Total 1) 1961.72 damage over the duration of rend.

Last Laugh :
Ib) 274.56
IIb) 4000/14x1.6=
IIIb) 315
IVb) 8.75%
Vb) 20%

Total 2) 1365.94 damage over the duration of rend

Again this helps Calamity's grasp close the gasp. However :

Subtotals :

11208.3 VS 12823.84 damage done with HS+DW+rend


C2) Devastate

Formula 50% weapondmg + 505

note that 505 comes from 5x101, and calamity's grasp will do significantly more damage on the first devastates. However during the course of a bossfight I think we can neglect the extra value of those "non-sundered devastates".

Dmg from 4 devastates : 2910.76 vs 2569.12

Again there's an advantage for Calamity's Grasp. Unfortunately the difference is yet again not so big due to the very small weapon damage factor in Devastate.

Subtotals : 14119.06 vs 15392.96

C3) Weaponstats

-Note: Calamity's grasp is actually not 2.60 speed due to haste on the item. and will benefit "more" from other haste buffs as windfury totem than last laugh will when it comes to heroic strikes per time unit. It also provides ~1.50% extra crit which benefits deep wounds.

-Inclduing haste enhancing buffs (non-improved windfury, uptime of 45 seconds per 5 minutes heroism, item stats) the average speed on both weapons is respectively 1.9515 and 1.2128.

This brings the number of heroics strikes to 10.761 and 17.315 in the previously used 21 second window.

damage contributed by heroic strike therefore is now :

I. Calamity's grasp :10.761x445.38 + (495x10.761) + 0.48x445.38x10.751 =
4792.7342+5326.695+ 2298.3746= 12418.004 damage

II.Last Laugh gives :

17.315x274.56 + 17.315x495 + 0.48x274.56x17.315 = 4754.0064+ 8570.925 + 2281.923 = 15606.8545 damage

-To make things a bit more clear again, here are the current subtotals after using the effective average weapon speed in a raid scenario with basic (non improved) windfury buff and heroism usage:

18299.964 for Calamity's grasp
20310.8145 for Last laugh

These values include HS+DW+DEV, enhanced with the most common raid setup's buffs.

D) Looking at the results :

Now how are we to interprete these results when it comes to the realistic scenarios ?

-In unlimited rage situations you'll probably do ~5.2% more damage with last laugh, since these abilities would do around half of total damage on single target encounters like patchwerk. (example taken from Wow Web Stats).

-Calamity's grasp however becomes better as soon as heroic strike queue time drops under approximately 75%. (495 bonus dmg per extra heroic strike so ~4 heroic strikes needed to undo the dmg difference over 21 seconds).

Using Xavastraz's stats this would mean last laugh strongly beats calamity's grasp (5%-2.5%) at :

-Patchwerk
-Grand widow faerlina
-Malygos
-Satharion
-Gluth (Main tanking)
-Sapphiron
-Kel'thuzad

Last laugh marginally beats calamity's grasp (>2.5%)

-Anub'rekhan
-Maexxna
-Loatheb
-Grobbulus


Calamity's grasp is superior at :

-Noth the plaguebringer
-Heigan the unclean
-Gothik (because of the "trash" style encounter)
-4 horsemen
-Razuvious (add tanking, so of little importance)
-Gluth (add tanking)
-Thaddius (due to the massive DW % damage)
-About all trash encounters.

As final conclusions I think we can state the following :

1) Speccing deep wounds / impale is increasing your DPS regardless whether you use a slow or fast weapon. This isn't exactly proven with these calculations but I think it's commonly accepted by now.

2) Equal dps slow/fast weapons comparisons depend highly on the encounter and the fact whether or not you outgear it. However the more Crit and Haste % you have the closer the slow weapon will get on fights with infinite rage. You'll need unattainable values to actually beat the fast weapon though.

3) A "maxed out" tank will probably also find Calamity's grasp better at the 4 encounters where the difference is only marginally big. I'll personally parse my wws's next week in naxx25 if I get the chance and compare my own results. with that of the here used WWS.


4) In any encounter, Calamity's grasp proves to be the best dps performing weapon for tanks, with the exception of Last laugh on fights with infinite rage. No other weapon is assumed to come close enough to compete.

5) Final conclusion : Ideally you have both Calamity's grasp and Last Laugh, using them accordingly to the above specified encounters.

Hope this answers most questions. If you find any flaws in my maths or wish to ask addiontal questions, don't hesitate .

Short note : With a fully melee-optimised raid (enh shaman, and note that heroism uptime isn't exactly 45 seconds out of 5 minutes, for example if a fight is 6 minutes, it's going to be 90 seconds out of 6 minutes or 25.7% uptime = 9% haste instead of 5.25%) and better offensive gear (crit and haste being the effective factors) the gap is going to get smaller and smaller, even at infinite rage fights. My guess is that with the factors I did not involve included you could say calamity's grasp is better as soon as the number of your white swings exceeds ~16-18% of the number of your heroic strikes.

[ironnigator]

Even though Cruelty > Impale below 25% crit rate, i guess the DW addition make a very good difference.
if i m not wrong and based on [ulr=http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/40339-impale-vs-cruelty-comparison.html]the impale-vs-cruetly comparison[/url] discussion, for 2k5 dps, going on 2/5 cruelty make a 11dps loose so if DW increase 6% to 12%, that's indeed a nice boost

I did test 15/5/51 aswell and find it pretty nice i have to admit (tho didn't test whole 25 raid content yet, will do next week). I just feel a bit ashame by loosing some Shield Specialization points... guess i'm scared by the change :P
Thanks for the infos.

[influxreptile]

You might aswel give up 3% dodge instead of shield spec if you're really fine at survivability. Until Ulduar releases anyways.

[Ciderhelm]

Source: influxreptile You might aswel give up 3% dodge instead of shield spec if you're really fine at survivability. Until Ulduar releases anyways.

The question is relative gains. 3% Dodge is flatly better than 3% Shield Specialization unless you're solo'ing content. Shield Specialization is not, however, on the same playing field as 3 points in Deep Wounds.

[influxreptile]

Source: Ciderhelm The question is relative gains. 3% Dodge is flatly better than 3% Shield Specialization unless you're solo'ing content. Shield Specialization is not, however, on the same playing field as 3 points in Deep Wounds.

However 3% dodge is a flat rage income decrease, which if you already outgear the content can result in a dps/tps loss far bigger than the small amount you already gain with blocking more = reflective damage + rage/block. The dodge is flatly better when it comes to mitigation but I think that if you're speccing for deep wounds / using weapons like Calamity's Grasp or other more dps-oriented weapons you're probably fine on damage intake.

As the thread is about optimising dps, I'd say Shield spec is more important than avoidance.

[Caulle]

Source: Ciderhelm I pulled just above 2.5k dps tonight on Patchwerk without a Feral Druid or Fury Warrior in the raid. I intend to do better next week. We ought to set up a Teron Gorefiend thread for Wrath off this encounter.

Seconded.

[holmedog]

I'm in about half epics and pulled 1500dps last night in OS 10 man using a spec close to this (dropping points out of conc blow/vigi for 2 more in SS).

Still no good tank weapon, so I think that's pretty good.

[soliduck]

Source: holmedog Just to further this, by taking impale, you are getting more rage on white hits as well as you start to lose rage generation to avoidance.

Impale does not affect white damage.

[Speen]

I read posts in and out of each page but skipped a lot, a question i have for this build would be if you do take 3 out of cruelty and 3 out of shield specialization and put those points into impale and deep wounds is this a treat gain at all? Getting those two on single target encounters such as 10/25man content? I read its a nice boost in DPS and a nice boost in aoe tanking but i haven't seen if its a nice boost in single target encounters yet let alone raid encounters "but like i said i could of skimmed over it"

[Petninja]

Deep Wounds alone adds about ~10% on to my raid dps while tanking. There is no way 3% crit can possibly make up that big of a difference. I've verified this using recount's damage breakdown for individual boss fights I've tanked, and guild mates have verified the results. Using simple logic that more dps = more threat, Deep Wounds will cause more threat than cruelty and shield spec.

[influxreptile]

Source: Farothin Question on imp revenge and vigilance For those of us still gearing up will my healer notice the extra spikyness possible from the lower chance to block of only having 2/5 shield spec? Also, while I'm still working on quests, grinding motes etc, will the lower block rate gimp my AOE grinding ability? ... is imp revenge really all that worth it? +20% for 2 talents on a single ability we use once every 5-6 seconds or less seems a little expensive. (especially if threat really is unimportant)

Kind of missed the part where you have a question Vigilance .

Anyhow revenge seems to do ~15% of total damage for me at bosses, which brings a 20% damage increase on that ability to a 3% flat damage increase from 2 talent points. It's not awesome, but 3% isn't all that bad either.

Lower block rate won't really gimp your AOE grinding abilities. 3% isn't going to make a day and night difference, but yes, you do lose a small amount of potential. I doubt your healer will notice the difference since the swings of hard hitting mobs vary as much as your block value at times, and as warrior the incoming damage varies a lot already according to shield block / critical blocks.

[influxreptile]

Source: Petninja Deep Wounds alone adds about ~10% on to my raid dps while tanking. There is no way 3% crit can possibly make up that big of a difference. I've verified this using recount's damage breakdown for individual boss fights I've tanked, and guild mates have verified the results. Using simple logic that more dps = more threat, Deep Wounds will cause more threat than cruelty and shield spec.

It's unfortunately not as simple as that. Current tests show that Deep Wounds damage is not affected by stance threat modifiers. It's probably also one of the reasons why TG warriors tend to be so high on threat compared to other classes. As a tank, speccing deep wounds will probably lower your tps output or at best keep it even. Then again, tps output isn't what we're looking for in this thread.

[Omok]

It would be lovely if Blizzard redesigned target dummies to either cost no rage to hit, or generate rage on a tank. Then they might actually be of some use to us for the purposes of finding an unlimited rage type encounter to benchmark against.

[Dizzy]

/agree with you Omok. It's very hard to test like this

[Bohan]

Hi.
First time poster, long time reader.

Reading about this new idea for a spec to increase dps/damage since tps is easy I figured I would try it out, and I am sad to say, I find no dps increase and no damage increase in raids or in 5man heroics (actually almost looked like a decrease if any change).
My Deep Wounds is between 4% - 5,5% of my total damage, so I'm terrible confused how other people can go as high as 12%.

Also when trying a spec without Deep Wound but Puncture instead, I found my dps/damage to increase and my Shield Slam to rise a few % in my damage output.
Interesting, but I guess old habits are hard to shake (TBC Devasate spamming ^^ ).

I guess what I'm trying to say is: This spec is really cool, but currently it doesn't optimise my character enough.

Happy Tankin ^^

[Muffin Man]

I felt the same way you did, until I did 25 man Sarth. I did 1600 dps offtanking embers. For some reason I was pulled into this PuG as the 3rd tank when they were doing sarth + 0 drakes . So that was my only tanking responsiblity. The rest of the run I was just dps-ing the drakes and trash. On the drakes I was still getting around 1k dps. The reason for this was +8% crit from Leader of the Pack and Heart of the Crusader. I'm sure there were other buffs on me as well.

If puncture is raising your dps, you probably aren't prioritizing SW / Concussive Blow / even *Rend high enough. So tweaking how you approach dps-ing may be the first step in maxing out your dps.

* rend does +35% dmg when the target is over 75% life. I checked recount and a single rend was doing 1k dmg with the bonus and ~700 dmg without, all ignoring armor. If I could ever get over my 'rend sucks' thinking I may even spec into improved rend.