[Swan]

So would Broken Promise out do Last Laugh over all dps-wise with the higher DW/Devastate dmg even with less frequent heroic strikes and lower dps of a weapon?

[Ciderhelm]

Source: Swan So would Broken Promise out do Last Laugh over all dps-wise with the higher DW/Devastate dmg even with less frequent heroic strikes and lower dps of a weapon?

Deep Wounds only helps close the gap, it doesn't make slow weapons superior to fast weapons, especially not with such a large DPS difference between those two.

[Swan]

ok cool thats what i thought, just needed reassurance

[huggy77]

Source: Ciderhelm Deep Wounds only helps close the gap, it doesn't make slow weapons superior to fast weapons, especially not with such a large DPS difference between those two.

thanks cider, you answered my question as well...

[Ranx]

Tbh i don't get all this gemming for tps. im using the the standard 15/5/51 build, gemmed and enchanted for all out EH, and it rocks, there is no need to go for tps atm, so why would you not want to go for max EH? This means i can can sit at 42k hp buffed, which again gives healers so much more room. The only place i would ever concider some more tps is mal. but i still find that i'm able to stay quite abit ahead on that fight.

The only thing im concidering changing is moving the 2 points in imp. charge to imp rend, cause that extra rage gain from chrage is at best very negiable.

[Canariensis]

Source: Ranx Tbh i don't get all this gemming for tps. im using the the standard 15/5/51 build, gemmed and enchanted for all out EH, and it rocks, there is no need to go for tps atm, so why would you not want to go for max EH? This means i can can sit at 42k hp buffed, which again gives healers so much more room. The only place i would ever concider some more tps is mal. but i still find that i'm able to stay quite abit ahead on that fight. The only thing im concidering changing is moving the 2 points in imp. charge to imp rend, cause that extra rage gain from chrage is at best very negiable.

"within reason", i think the gem choices remain the same:

Blue = Stam
Yellow = DEF (if under 540); Sta/Def
Red = ???

Red is "probably" the gem choice most people who gem for "survivability" have been putting: Dodge, Dodge/Stam, Parry, or Parry/Stam, or in some cases Str/Def (note at this time there is no monarch Str/Def pattern)

Originally, I had considered giong sta/str for red, but again like the monarch gem..there isn't a "rare" cut sovereign.

So gemming for "damage" but still having a focus on tanking, it seems reasonable to gem Red: Expertise or Expertise/Stamina.

Those are gem colors, but you could also look at enchants of gear too. Going Agil for cloak and gloves, Expertise for Gloves and Bracers, etc.

I don't think proponents of 15-5-51 are saying skip thinking about "living", but also what can you do in addition. There is a good guide on the front page discussing +Hit and Expertise. I think HIT/Expertise go hand in hand with being a tank. In terms of EH, I don't think anyone would advocate ignoring EH. Maybe instead of going Pure Expertise gem...go sta/expertise. If you're at 540 defense and have a yellow slot, maybe go Stamina/hit.

Finally, I am not saying it's not going to happen...but I think the days of just pure Stam gems might be a thing of the past. That's not to say it's a horrid idea, but if you look at a lot of the socket bonuses...lets use Valorous Helm as an example. I can put a solid (+24 stamina) in the red slot, but putting in a Guardian's (+12 stamina / +8 expertise) I still get +24 stamina but add +8 expertise.

yes, that's a perfect example...but lets say the socket bonus was +10 stamina or +8...Gemming guardian, I gain +8 expertise. Gemming Solid, I would get +2 or +4 stamina. At this time, with tihs build I would go with the Guardian over +4 stamina (but I reserve the right to change my mind.)

=)

[blahism]

I've been trying to convince my fellow warrior tanks to drop their parry/stam gems and go expertise/stam gems but they're convinced i'm completely wrong and they need the parry.

I tried to explain installing tankpoints and use the calculator to see how it would be better to go with something else. It just seems the returns on parry aren't worth it unless you over gem for parry at the loss of other stats.

Of course they're trying to discuss this with a DK where parry may be a stat they need to achieve for avoidance because of no shield (but even then, i'm not sure its the best value per socket)

[Foolishness]

I don't agree.


In my opinion:
Gear like a tin can, keep yourself alive, take less healers and actually bring some extra pure DPS.

I think most of the content could be done with 5 or less healers, if the tank knows how to handle the damage.

[Foolishness]

By looking at the tanking gear that blizzard actually gives us in 10 and 25 man's, its obvious that they are planning on people going for a defensive/ survival gearing pattern.

The huge threat margin blizzard gave us, allows us to gear more defensively without threat capping our DPS.

It all makes sense.

The game is designed a certain way, and by sticking to your strengths you can get the best out of most situations. Obviously its now possible to start bending bending the game around what people would personally prefer to do, but from a progression standpoint i don't think its optimal.

Sure for 5 and 10 mans, which are so easy can you do it sleeping, you might as well gear for damage to amuse yourself. But when it comes to the crunch it's not what we were designed for.

For progression raiding, defensive gearing gives you a margin for error, which is far more beneficial and secure than an extra few hundred DPS.

[Tankueray]

i think as long as you are staying alive you should be pumping out as much dmg as possible. i think them throwing so much strength on gear and making it scale the way it does for our AP and SBV that our dps will become important.

and if not important - are you gonna want a tank who will take a bit less dmg or a tank that will put out twice the damage of previously mentioned tank?

[Foolishness]

twice as much as 'not much' isn't alot

[rustyboy]

Source: Lonan If I was in your level of gear I could totally see switching to the spec and re-gemming. My question really is at what level of gearing is this a good idea. Check out my armory, if you want, but I have done that math and I lose avoidance with the re-gemming and I will lose survivability (in the 3% block, block = survivability even on bosses.. mitagated damage is mitigated damage). It is never a question of whether this works but of, WHEN it works best.

Lavanthor's Talisman and Valor Medal of the First War are 2 trinkets you can use to make up for any loss in your talents and the best thing is you can change them on the fly depending on your situation.

[rustyboy]

Source: Foolishness I don't agree. In my opinion: Gear like a tin can, keep yourself alive, take less healers and actually bring some extra pure DPS. I think most of the content could be done with 5 or less healers, if the tank knows how to handle the damage.

I don't think what the post is saying is hey we can replace dps.. what its saying is damage = threat and the more damage you push out the more threat you push out. Changing from 5 points in Shield Specialization to 2 will not make you go from a solid tank to something that needs extra healers.

You gear for the damage... you check your wws and see what's coming in from each boss and change your gear depending on the difficulty of the encounter next time. Heigan for example hits extremely low compared to any other boss and probably less than most heroic bosses but I bet tanks still tank him in full gear. Malygos hits the tank for up to 30k, nothing that the tank can do other than using shield wall will change that.

If you take less healers and one dies and you can't rez him the group will most likely wipe, take one less dps and the encounter takes an extra 10 secs. You can look at every encounter differently.

This post is all about threat.. not about making tanks take more damage or increasing your damage output equal to dps classes.

[Foolishness]

This post is nothing about threat. Cider clearly started threat was irrelevant for most fights as one of his first points.

This post is about what your goal is as a tank.

[Ciderhelm]

Source: Foolishness I think most of the content could be done with 5 or less healers, if the tank knows how to handle the damage.

We regularly run 5-6 healers for everything, w/ a shaman respecing for Malygos if necessary (for AOE damage on the raid, though).

Losing 2-3% Avoidance in favor of better damage output will never warrant an additional healer. This is not the choice between wearing DPS gear and wearing tank gear, it's just a choice between gems on stats with heavy diminishing returns.

[larson]

One thing I'll be doing is starting to use Rend as part of my tanking rotation, as I've now specced into Imp Rend over Imp Charge.

Rend hits hard for that first 25%.. the fact it gets buffed by Mangle so much makes it incredible. Using my Last Laugh, I'm hitting target dummies for 1530.. factor in raid buffs and a feral's mangle (30% more) and that damage shoots up. If you really want to min-max, you can switch to a slow weapon immediately after your last ability to minimize the reset of the GCD, Rend, then switch back.

This would make the priority with Rend not up:
S&B Shield Slam > Revenge > Shield Slam > Concussion Blow > Shockwave > Rend > Devastate - I'm not convinced waiting for the GCD before Shield Slam is up is even necessary for Rend.

Of course, you never Rend again until the last one falls off.

[Foolishness]

diminishing returns was just a way to stop avoidance being ridiculously overpowered.

It's still more than worthwhile. What is the amount of extra damage you get from losing 2-3% avoidance?

In the end, I don't think it really matters either way. The extra damage is negligible, as is the extra survivability.

[Oa-]

Source: Foolishness diminishing returns was just a way to stop avoidance being ridiculously overpowered. It's still more than worthwhile. What is the amount of extra damage you get from losing 2-3% avoidance? In the end, I don't think it really matters either way. The extra damage is negligible, as is the extra survivability.

wasnt there a blue post about tank damage coming into play with making
enrage timers in upcoming content ? maybe what u see as negligible damage
wont be.. just a thought

[Roana]

Source: Ciderhelm This is not the choice between wearing DPS gear and wearing tank gear, it's just a choice between gems on stats with heavy diminishing returns.

Notwithstanding the fact that expertise is also a mitigation stat, I would like to point out that "diminishing returns" on avoidance stats is not exactly a fully accurate description.

It is important to remember that pre-WotLK, avoidance stats had significant increasing returns with respect to your relative survival gain. That is, gaining another 1% avoidance when you already were at 50% increased your chance of survival more than when you had only 40% avoidance. True, numerically it was the same increase as before, but you did get more mileage out of the same increase if you had higher avoidance already (as an extreme case, consider going from 99% to 100% avoidance).

WotLK fixed that. Now you're getting not that much extra benefit from the extra rating points, regardless of whether you're at 40%, 50%, or 60%. In fact, even now you're often getting more than 1% extra survivability out pre-DR increaseses of 1% in dodge or defense or even parry rating.

[rustyboy]

Source: Foolishness This post is nothing about threat. Cider clearly started threat was irrelevant for most fights as one of his first points. This post is about what your goal is as a tank.

I take the meaning that if your increasing your damage your increasing your threat, so you don't have to worry about it. Not I'm way above the raid in threat so I should put more survivability into my gear so we can take less healers.

Threat is never irrelevant, at the moment you can just spam abilities and probably still be ahead in threat. That does not mean you should not be looking at ways if improving it.