[Lore]

More updates from Ghostcrawler:

Source: Ghostcrawler Hi. On the subject of weapons, this change should be transparent to most druids. You will end up having a few more items that you can use, but your feral staves will continue to do the damage they do now. If it makes it clearer, imagine that feral attack power is not going away as a concept, but weapon dps will instead translate to their current FAP values. This is also not license for us to never again add weapons which are optimized for druids. It should just provide more options in between major upgrades. On the subject of armor, the intent of the change is to give you more options in which trinkets and other jewelry you use, instead of always having to rely on the (relatively rare) bonus armor pieces. (We don't think the solution of just dropping bonus armor pieces everywhere is a great one either -- no single stat should trump the others by that much.) The change isn't intended to be a nerf at all. A lot of numbers have been thrown around in this thread. Give me some time to review them and see where any discrepancies lie. Our design remains to have fewer specialized items drop so that more loot is actually valued by someone in the group. A lot of the druid itemization was a relic of the older system and we have been wanting to convert it over. But with any change like this, it may take some time before all of the rough edges are smoothed over. To use a tired cliche, the designers tend to take the stance that the design of WoW is a journey not a destination. On the myriad of other topics... I realize some players have made some passionate and intelligent arguments for other ways in which bears can scale from gear. That isn't something we are going to do at the moment, but something we may investigate in the future. I understand that it's fun to improve tanking gear, and while we don't want it to be such a burden to get the +armor pieces, we also don't want the choices to be so meaningless that you aren't gearing for tanking at all. Let's see how things stand after these changes go live. We are not adding additional weapons that druids can use at the moment, but we may consider it in the future. Block is a very good stat now, and we have read a lot about the notion that "unblocked hits are the new crushing blows." We don't want the block mechanic to mean that death knights and druids (and possibly even paladins) are left behind. Again the goal is to have four viable tank classes. That doesn't mean identical, but it also doesn't mean that druids get swapped out for some fights or relegated to permanent off-tank status.

[phaze]

Source: Ghostcrawler Block is a very good stat now, and we have read a lot about the notion that "unblocked hits are the new crushing blows." We don't want the block mechanic to mean that death knights and druids (and possibly even paladins) are left behind.

I think this notion is a non-issue, for Druid tanks. We're back to the old tradeoff (against boss-style attacks): Druids have more armor for a smoother damage curve, Warriors have block chance for a spikier damage curve but eke out ahead on total mitigation.

Just like the old CB discussion, the Bear Tank answer is the same: Soak it, and make those HoT-based healers happy!

[Manßearpig]

Aye Lore, it does seem to suggest that. Basically, Feral AP will still be there, just hidden.

[Orenus]

Source: Mirumara Even though Ghostcrawler mentioned Hunters being interested in our weapons, I seriously doubt that any Hunter would go for them considering that the majority of the staves are going to have a lot of + Strength on the item.

That never stopped them from rolling on Gorehowl. ><

[Zake202]

So it sounds like druids will be better off overall with these changes, but how will they compare to warriors?

[Darksend]

i am worried by one very VERY VERY minor thing that GC said that a lot of people (if you actually read the entire thread as i have) have commented on.

The changes should be a buff for any druid not in full Naxx 25 gear (and I'm pretty sure that means ALL druids for the moment). One of the reasons we are announcing this change early is so you can make your preparations accordingly. A druid with every possible item from Naxx 25-level content loses about 3700 armor, but to be honest, those armor trinkets and weapons were so insanely good that they were likely going to be nerfed anyway.

and

It is a buff to 90% of druids. It is a nerf to a theoretical maximum that nobody currently has

yes i know it seems like i am only reading part of the thread and i know he said that he would have nerfed those items anyway, but regardless it is a very valid concern if you read the reasoning people are posting in the actual thread.

NOW! at this very moment only 10% of druids have the gear where it will be an armor nerf. in a month, maybe 20% of druids will have the gear where it will be in a nerf. when the patch goes live maybe 40% of druids will be nerfed.

WE NEED rings itemized with agi stam armor and dodge, instead of str and def. We cannot afford to waste stats on items when we already scale with so few. im sorry GC but the simple fact is that the ilvl system favors scaling with more stats simply because you get less of more stats but when you scale with all of them its better than having more of less stats because more of less is still less than the more stats.

i reserve judgement until i see the gear from the next tier but ATM it sounds like you are balancing us around never getting upgrades past naxx, which is a fundemental design flaw.

stop putting ArP and haste on our gear and start putting hit and exp. start itemizing rings and necks we would actually use.

dont get me wrong i love this change because i have always hated farming those armor items. i never got a badge of tenacity simply because i could never use it because i had def in my trinket slots. for me even with full naxx 25 gear is a huge buff because i do not have any of the new armor rings or necks because they never dropped and i hated being dependent on them droping.

but the simple fact is we will still use them and it is not because of the armor but because they are still the best because very few things without armor are itemized for us.

The goal was not to make you ignore +armor trinkets. The goal was that a bear lacking those trinkets wouldn't be at such a disadvantage. We would rather you use a new level 80 trinket with a little bit of wasted block on it than a blue trinket from level 62 or something with silly amounts of armor.

WRONG. again im sorry but we scale with too few stats to do that. would you want a warrior using a trinket with stam int and defense and a chance on block to return mana? no you dont so why are druids expected too ?


p.s. thanks for replying to my post despite me asking the same question 4 times and formatting it very poorly.

Q u o t e: defenders code has 850 armor. Is that considered bonus armor? if so than it does not get modified by thick hide and will continue to be 850 armor no matter what. Defender's Code will grant 850 armor unless you have the meta-gem. Q u o t e: if the wording you posted in your previous post holds true, than obviously only the 8 item slots will be affected by SOTF, but what thick hide affects even with your new post is still ambiguous. Thick Hide, Dire Bear and Survival of the Fittest only affect base armor. This is the armor on all the base armor on your gear. Leather never has bonus armor, so it's not complicated. Rings, necks, trinkets and weapons can have bonus armor. This is usually shown with the armor number in green, but confusingly, not always. Cloaks are complicated because they have base armor (which is multiplied) and sometimes bonus armor (which is not). Q u o t e: requesting further clarification of what exactly thick hide will and will not multiply. Thick hide multiplies the base armor on leather and cloaks. Q u o t e: also, what exactly does the meta effect, from your wording it looks like it will affect everything. The meta gem increases all your armor so it's just a 2% bonus to everything. You want this gem. Fortunately it is not a rare drop like some of the other gear so we know you can get it. Q u o t e: finally, in a previous post, you stated that all armor item budget would be reallocated on staves. For example my staff from heroic halls of lightning has 700 armor. Will it continue to have 700 armor that just no longer gets multiplied by anything, or will those item budgets be spent and the staff will gain (purely random here) say 20 agi and 30 stam? It will get 700 armor that is not multiplied by anything (except the meta). Q u o t e: I just don't understand one thing. You said this won't effect any items value, rather just open up druids to using other weapons. Well, take these two staves: Staff of the Plaguehound - Item - World of Warcraft Origin of Nightmares - Item - World of Warcraft They both have 2084 feral AP attached to them, but they both have different DPS. How are you going to calculate feralAP from the dps and expect to get the same number from each? One is going to be higher/lower, and will consequently gain/lose value. Are you going to adjust the DPS on all staves or something? We'll change the dps to be the appropriate FAP. This change won't affect anyone but druids who currently don't care about the dps at the moment. And to answer another question, yes, if you really want to you can use fishing poles. Generally their stats are not great though. I agree there is too much QQ, too much "Blizzard is trying to phase out bear tanks," and too much "you're doing it wrong." That is not appropriate for this forum and not anything I really read. We are concerned about the numbers not working out or you not having fun. Those are totally legit responses and the kinds of things we are interested in.

the most important thing i took away from this is that unfortunately they are not doing a BC type rework on armor such as Harness of Carnal Instinct - Item - World of Warcraft having its armor converted into 21 more agi. staves will continue to have armor that is just not multiplied. personally i find this logic flawed if they want to open druid weapons up to other classes because i doubt a hunter would use a staff with wasted item budget on armor (can dks use maces maybe if they made a mace with armor for dk tanking as well)

the other negative from this post is that thick hide HAS ALWAYS BEEN A TALENT INDEPENDENT of bear form. If i had a staff with 700 armor it always gave me 770 armor in caster and cat form. i am a little upset that this will no longer be the case.

[phaze]

Source: Darksend yes i know it seems like i am only reading part of the thread and i know he said that he would have nerfed those items anyway

There's your answer. Can't leave things as they are, or Druid armor items would have to be directly nerfed. Instead, you get the upcoming change, which allows for more itemization options.

Sounds like a great change to me.

[WarDrum]

Source: Ghostcrawler And to answer another question, yes, if you really want to you can use fishing poles.

[phaze]

Couple of quick thoughts about the comments that GC made recently:

Source: Ghostcrawler -- The ultimate bear modifier should be 4.7 (Dire Bear form) x 1.66 (Survival of the Fittest) x 1.1 (Thick Hide) x 1.02 (meta gem).

This confirms that the SotF bonus is multiplicative. Yay Bears!

Source: Ghostcrawler -- Cloaks do have base armor which gets multipled by the bear bonus.

This is an unexpected boost from my view; that's another ~150 armor that will get multiplied. So you're looking at ~1200 armor just from wearing any lv80 cloak, which was not taken into account by Sparan's earlier example.

[Darksend]

Source: phaze There's your answer. Can't leave things as they are, or Druid armor items would have to be directly nerfed. Instead, you get the upcoming change, which allows for more itemization options. Sounds like a great change to me.

re-read my concerns and you will understand

bears just simply are not being itemized for the way the other tanks are

and when we do our items are only 2/3 as effective because of the scaling nature of the ilvl item budget.

[jere]

Source: Darksend re-read my concerns and you will understand bears just simply are not being itemized for the way the other tanks are and when we do our items are only 2/3 as effective because of the scaling nature of the ilvl item budget.

Why is that an issue if they are being designed with that in mind?

[Darksend]

Source: jere Why is that an issue if they are being designed with that in mind?

because we arent

GC flat out said druids should be wearing gear with shield block on it

[phaze]

Source: Darksend because we arent GC flat out said druids should be wearing gear with shield block on it

You flat out misread GC's comment, then. There is currently no upgrade path from armor trinkets, that isn't "a new armor trinket". Not stamina, not dodge, not expertise; armor wins.

As of right now, the item designers can't add bonus armor to items without drastically overpowering Bear Tanks. Options:
1) nerf the items that Druids can equip; affects other classes as well
2) nerf the bear form multiplier, so Druids don't gain as much armor
3) change bear mechanics so they don't have to stack bonus armor on accessory slots, and have itemization options

(3) is the better choice.

[jere]

Source: Darksend because we arent GC flat out said druids should be wearing gear with shield block on it

GC didn't say they should do that. You should read your quote more carefully. GC said that given the choice between an 80 item and a 62 item, they prefer you use the 80 item, even if it has some wasted stats.

But the question still stands. If they are designing bears around the idea that on some pieces they will have some wasted itemization points (block, parry, etc.), where is the problem? As long as bears get to the same point as other tanks, regardless if they have wasted stats on a couple pieces of gear, is there really an issue other than simply not liking that we have wasted stats?

[Darksend]

Source: phaze You flat out misread GC's comment, then. There is currently no upgrade path from armor trinkets, that isn't "a new armor trinket". Not stamina, not dodge, not expertise; armor wins. As of right now, the item designers can't add bonus armor to items without drastically overpowering Bear Tanks. Options: 1) nerf the items that Druids can equip; affects other classes as well 2) nerf the bear form multiplier, so Druids don't gain as much armor 3) change bear mechanics so they don't have to stack bonus armor on accessory slots, and have itemization options (3) is the better choice.

no

i most definately did NOT misread his comments. he said that they wanted druids to use level 80 trinkets and not badge of tenacity. and that they intended for the old armor trinkets to be worse than items with wasted stats such as shield block.

you have me confused however.

are you trying to say that badge of tenacity is currently the 3rd best trinket in the game behind defenders code and offering of sacrifice? sorry but you are wrong.

badge of tenacity is 1600 armor (which is about 1.6% mitigation) and 2.42% dodge every 20 seconds every 2 minutes.

essence of gossamer and figurine - monarch crab (with 2x 41 prismatic gems) are my 2 current trinkets. 111 stam and 154 stam. one provides 7.62% dodge with the same theoretical uptime and the other procs an absorb of about (against single targets with 1 attack every second is 10 attacks x140) 1.4K.

that gives me an extra 4635 hp with kings.

Source: jere GC didn't say they should do that. You should read your quote more carefully. GC said that given the choice between an 80 item and a 62 item, they prefer you use the 80 item, even if it has some wasted stats. But the question still stands. If they are designing bears around the idea that on some pieces they will have some wasted itemization points (block, parry, etc.), where is the problem? As long as bears get to the same point as other tanks, regardless if they have wasted stats on a couple pieces of gear, is there really an issue other than simply not liking that we have wasted stats?

yea read what i wrote above i knew what he meant but saying something like really makes me sad.

and again, they are balancing it around NEVER UPGRADING past t7, unless the new gear uses a radically new design system then any time they release a new instance they will have to spend the next 10 mini patches balancing druids every new content.

i for one am sick of always being the red headed step child