[Zelgius]

The only time I've ever seen a paladin fail to AOE tank is when they forgot to put up righteous fury. So if we make that a passive and permanent trait, the distinction between a good paladin tank and a bad paladin tank would be blurred even further.

[Zelgius]

Source: Alrinea that would produce some major threat issues with holy paldins as auras are raidwide ... something along the lines of shadowform should be just fine

Build it into Imp Devo aura, affecting the paladin only.

[Lore]

Source: Zelgius The only time I've ever seen a paladin fail to AOE tank is when they forgot to put up righteous fury. So if we make that a passive and permanent trait, the distinction between a good paladin tank and a bad paladin tank would be blurred even further.

Eh, they're pushing DPS and survivability as the skill indicators in Wrath over Threat. Idea seems to be "Everyone can hold aggro, but good tanks will hold aggro and do more DPS."

Bigger issue is then we can't use Ret Aura for AOE tanking.

[Zelgius]

Sounds interesting to say the least.

[Alrinea]

Source: Zelgius Build it into Imp Devo aura, affecting the paladin only.

thats not how auras work ...
btw RF has some issues when rebuffed while not at full mana ... it sometimes fails to work.
i got nothing to say about your "good or bad pally" post .... hope you realized you failed that that one by yourself

[mero12513]

Source: Lonan Perfect I am truly not trying be a jerk here but.. I contend that you just stated an opinion. I know many pallies, almost every one that I know on my server, that are excited about being a viable off healer. Opinion does not make for good design philosophy. In my opinion warriors NEED their stamina given back to be on par with pallies (6% =/= 12% when we will be using mainly the same gear) but it is my opinion and by no means a solution.

Lore is coming up with this not just as personal preference, but also in thinking about how min/max encounter design is going to have to work.

Here's the basic assumption: encounters are designed with a certain ratio of tanks, dps, and healers.

Imagine that a raid instance requires x tanks (t), y dps (y), and z healers (h). We'll assume, for simplicity, that a tank in an off-role is 75% as efficient as a player specced for that role (the amount is unimportant). Encounters are based on the assumption that you have a basic group composition. Optimum Encounter (E) is based on the following equation.

E = (x)t + (y)d + (z)h

The above raid comes to Generic Ugly Boss #22. This boss only requires x-1 tanks. I think we can all agree that paladins being sub-par dps AND sub-par healing is bad, so I won't even consider this situation.

Now, consider that a paladin is respectable off-dps and off-heals. Because 1/4 tanks is a paladin (which is the design goal), and half of tankadins offheal while half offdps, the encounter design must be based on the equation:

E = (x-1)t + (y + .75*.75 + .125*.75)d + (z + .25*.75)h.
E = (x-1)t + (y+0.65625)d + (z+0.1875)h

However, unless you bring at least 8 (or some multiple of that) tanks, the above equation will never work out to whole numbers. (This is because it takes 8 tanks to have equal representaion of classes AND allowing for both off-heal and off-dps tankadins.) There is no realistic raid at the 25-man level that requires 8 tanks, so the expression of raid requirements will simply never be fulfilled. Let's look at the above example if you have 1 death knight and 1 paladin. We'll assume 5 heaers and 18 dps just for fun. These numbers make no difference. The DK tanks the boss, and the paladin will do some off-dps. Here you Actual Encounter Setup, and well as optimum (E) is shown by:

E = (2-1)t + (18.65625)d + (5.1875)h
A = (2-1)t + (18.75)d + (5)h

A =/= E. You didn't have enough healers, and your tank died by a fraction of a second. I know the numbers seem miniscule, but for progression raiding guild like SK Gaming or Death and Taxes, they will know the difference, they will care, and they will be pissed that they can't optimize.

In Lore's optimum situation, the designer can ASSUME, that there are x-1 tanks, y+.75 dps, and z healers. This makes the design of the encounter easier, and allows for further creativity because there simply less variables to account, and garuntees that the optimum raid is the same raid that the min/max guild will bring.

A==E. Blizzard wants this to be true for as many situations as possible, all the way from Nihilum to the kara guild on my server called "Murlocs go brawlawlawl"

The other thing to think about is that a lot of people don't want to be pidgeon-holed into a role they don't want to do. Some guild is goign to want their Paladin to heal when he wants to dps, and he's gonna be pissed. You can start the argument that hybrid class players should be willing to respec, and we've all heard it a thousand times. It always ends up the same way: people play their class and their spec because they want to do a certain thing. Anyone forcing them to do something other than that makes the game less fun for them, and Blizzard doesn't want that to happen.

[Zelgius]

Source: Alrinea thats not how auras work ... btw RF has some issues when rebuffed while not at full mana ... it sometimes fails to work. i got nothing to say about your "good or bad pally" post .... hope you realized you failed that that one by yourself

Failed? Maelstrom, Lightning's Blade. Ask them yourself. Not sure what you consider success or failure when someone shares their past experiences.

[phaze]

Source: Lonan Opinion does not make for good design philosophy.

Luckily for Lore, his opinion on this matter matches fact. Of the possible choices for Protadin contribution when not tanking, the correct design choice is to behave like the other tank classes and switch to DPS. The other avenues are all problematic with either class balance, raid makeup, or both.

Many of us have a great amount of knowledge of our individual classes ... but we also risk bring ing too much of our personal opinion

Many of the posters in this forum are raid leaders who have to figure out who to bring.

Speaking as a raid leader in BC content: it is useless to bring a Protadin to a raid if they aren't tanking. I already bring enough real healers, and Protadin DPS output is far too low.

For the situations where I need the Paladin player to come anyway (low attendance, don't want to bother with switching them out, I just happen to like the guy, whatever), the best option is to let the Pally tank, and have one of the Druids (Warriors in a pinch) switch to DPS mode. At least they put out some decent numbers that way.

[Bonerot]

Source: phaze Speaking as a raid leader in BC content: it is useless to bring a Protadin to a raid if they aren't tanking. I already bring enough real healers, and Protadin DPS output is far too low.

I would think most RL's would want the option to convert extra tanks into DPS not healers. I know I certainly would and it just seems more right to me that a tank being a melee damage taking class would also be good at DPSing.

All tanks need to dps at the same level or whichever one has the lowest assumed DPS is going to generally also be the one tanking most of the time assuming the tanking abilities are all equal.

[JacenSolo]

Source: Lore The reason the random idiots on the forums are random idiots is because the logic is flawed; Prot Paladins aren't what they're arguing that they are. If Prot Paladins are made to be that, then they cease being random idiots and start being right.

That's a good point. Obviously regardless of which way Blizz goes with prot paladins they need to be balanced, but I see what you're saying.

[Donjuan]

Make blessings last longer and make bok and bosanc baseline spells that all paladins have, and then you decide wether to get improved kings by speccing prot. Make righteous fury last until cancelled or dispelled, and I think that will help solve the crazy min/maxing , micromanaging that has to be done around paladin buffs. Not gonna comment on the paladin mitigation as i dont wanna start any flame wars, but do agree , paladin need some kind of single target taunt for bosses where precision taunting is needed and you wanna take two prot pala.

[Knaughty]

I've tanked about as far as Lore has on my tankadin.

Missed out on Grull/Mag (was on my warlock) but tanked Karazhan, all of SSC, TK, MH, BT and Sunwell as far as M'uru. Haven't got to KJ, but we're still actively raiding, so we're hopeful.

A higher than normal proportion of that has been as an MT rather than a speciality (AE) tank, because I'm a pushy bastard (and either GM or officer in the two guilds I've been in) and refuse to settle for "go tank trash".

The only fight in-game where ranged taunt + shield isn't enough is A'lar.

Main-tanking him in P1 requires a charge, otherwise you can't get up the ramp fast enough.

Tanking adds also rewards mobility - the ramps on opposite sides are far enough apart that you're outside taunt/RD range moving from one to the other. That said, there's an easy fix: Don't wear FR gear, and use the explosions to blow you from one side to the other.

I got very very good at It's a bird.. it's a plane... No! It's SuperTankadin! Just make sure not to fly the "unfriendly" skies (periods where the damage aura thingy is running).

One fight in an entire expansion rewarding charge over ranged taunt is not a problem. Ranged 3-target taunt wins in most other situations.

Add in the fact that in 3.0 shield is instant cast, and we get HolyCleave and there's no issue at all with paladins being the "trudge slowly over there" tank. It's a flavour difference.

We do need a single-target taunt. I've had to train every warrior/bear tank I've ever worked with to "let me taunt first, then you taunt back" is both annoying and fragile.

[Karih]

Source: Knaughty The only fight in-game where ranged taunt + shield isn't enough is A'lar. Main-tanking him in P1 requires a charge, otherwise you can't get up the ramp fast enough.

It's quite possible to get to the top of the ramp at the same time as he lands and get none of the debuffs on folks without charge. The aoe doesn't hit all parts of the ramp and you can work your way about half way up the ramp as long as you stay on the very edge and then when he starts moving head for the top of the ramp and meet him there. I got to the point where I could pull that off about 80% of the time and one debuff was the worst I'd see.

[Knaughty]

Regarding the problem with there being too many blessings, and that rewarding pally-stacking in wrath, I can see a couple of quick fixes - the first one fixes the biggest problem, the other two are "nice".

• Change the 21-pt prot talent to "Sanctuary Blessings": Your blessing (any flavour) provides the benefits of Sanctuary

• Change MotW to work like BoK, and make the talent point cost for +10% stats be the same. For five talent points on each side, you could probably just make it the super-set: +10% stats, some armour and some resists. The resists are a bit of a joke anyway - for any real resist fight you're using the dedicated "specific flavour" resist you need.

• Have BoW & Mana-Spring not stack, and buff Replenishment to cover any regen shortfall. (Aside: Replenishment sounds weak at 0.25% - nerf non-replenishment regen and buff the mana-battery classes to compensate. You're still only bringing two!)

At that point you can cover every Blessing with a "nearly equivalent" other buff. Kings from a Prot pally ends up being slightly better than fully improved MotW, BoW & BoM are more convenient than totems/shouts simply due to 30m duration and lack of range issues, but you can cope if they're missing.

The Blessing situation is much improved in 3.0 - losing Salvation, and making BoM and battleshout not stack reduced the number of paladins you want by 1-2. Unfortunately, the monumental buff to Blessing of Sanctuary increased "desired pally numbers" by 1 - and locked them to a single spec: Tankadin. So you're back to "2 minimum, prefer 3" as desired pally numbers.

That said... they are a healing class, which earns them an extra spot in a raid. I'm just not sure if the end-result that blizzard want is that every min-maxxed raid includes three paladins: one ret, one prot, one holy.

Speaking from a raid/guild management perspective, one of the nicest things by far about Wrath compared to TBC is the drastically simplified raid construction rules. There's no longer "bring exactly five melee DPS, with exactly one enhance shaman" or "Boomkin beats extra mage IF there's an elemental shaman and a SP in the mage group" etc, etc. Or bringing a shitty rogue no one likes over a great mage because the 25th raid spot is in the melee group. Or vice-versa. All gone. It's now:
• Bring X tanks, ideally different classes, but not critical.
• Bring Y healers, try for at least one of each class
• Fill raid with DPS, try for at least one of each class.

About the only class where I still have to think "I really need more than one" is paladins. Every other class you have their "min-max" complete by inviting the first one. Or "healer+1" for the healing classes, maybe.

[Knaughty]

Regarding the problem with there being too many blessings, and that rewarding pally-stacking in wrath, I can see a couple of quick fixes - the first one fixes the biggest problem, the other two are "nice".

• Change the 21-pt prot talent to "Sanctuary Blessings": Your blessing (any flavour) provides the benefits of Sanctuary

• Change MotW to work like BoK, and make the talent point cost for +10% stats be the same. For five talent points on each side, you could probably just make it the super-set: +10% stats, some armour and some resists. The resists are a bit of a joke anyway - for any real resist fight you're using the dedicated "specific flavour" resist you need.

• Have BoW & Mana-Spring not stack, and buff Replenishment to cover any regen shortfall. (Aside: Replenishment sounds weak at 0.25% - nerf non-replenishment regen and buff the mana-battery classes to compensate. You're still only bringing two!)

At that point you can cover every Blessing with a "nearly equivalent" other buff. Kings from a Prot pally ends up being slightly better than fully improved MotW, BoW & BoM are more convenient than totems/shouts simply due to 30m duration and lack of range issues, but you can cope if they're missing.

The Blessing situation is much improved in 3.0 - losing Salvation, and making BoM and battleshout not stack reduced the number of paladins you want by 1-2. Unfortunately, the monumental buff to Blessing of Sanctuary increased "desired pally numbers" by 1 - and locked them to a single spec: Tankadin. So you're back to "2 minimum, prefer 3" as desired pally numbers.

That said... they are a healing class, which earns them an extra spot in a raid. I'm just not sure if the end-result that blizzard want is that every min-maxxed raid includes three paladins: one ret, one prot, one holy.

Speaking from a raid/guild management perspective, one of the nicest things by far about Wrath compared to TBC is the drastically simplified raid construction rules. There's no longer "bring exactly five melee DPS, with exactly one enhance shaman" or "Boomkin beats extra mage IF there's an elemental shaman and a SP in the mage group" etc, etc. Or bringing a shitty rogue no one likes over a great mage because the 25th raid spot is in the melee group. Or vice-versa. All gone. It's now:
• Bring X tanks, ideally different classes, but not critical.
• Bring Y healers, try for at least one of each class
• Fill raid with DPS, try for at least one of each class.

About the only class where I still have to think "I really need more than one" is paladins. Every other class you have their "min-max" complete by inviting the first one. Or "healer+1" for the healing classes, maybe.

[Amabar]

I disagree that it's quite so simple as all that. For example, you want one each spec of druid because they provide the "best in slot" buff for their myriad roles.

I see no reason why it shouldn't be common to have one each spec paladin. The issue I see is where you start to have overflow from that into 4 pallies. And of course, the restriction that it HAS to be paladins is a clincher as well.

And don't get the math wrong, if blizzard does their jobs perfectly, then you'll actually have 5 classes with three people in raid, and 5 with only 2.

I have every confidence that they will do their jobs at least marginally well.

[Amabar]

And because I can't edit.. I'll make a new post to state the obvious.

Encounter design has to be based around the min/max guilds, because they are the ones that set the bar. What they do one week, the next week trickles down to lesser guilds. The strategies you use for everything from Kael'thas to Vashj to Illidan were all play tested and approved by people that truly cared and WOULD do this sort of min/maxing.

Thus, while some guild certainly find it hard building a perfect class composition (some guilds cant even fill a 25 man raid), the balance must be built assuming that you CAN and WILL do that.

As an extreme example: If you could build a raid with 2 protadins, 6 Holy paladins, and 17 retadins and walk through progression content, then something is wrong.

[Knaughty]

Source: Amabar I disagree that it's quite so simple as all that. For example, you want one each spec of druid because they provide the "best in slot" buff for their myriad roles.

• Tree-form buff is the same (slightly worse, actauuly) than Improved Devotion Aura from a prot pally.
• Moonkin Aura is covered by Swift Retribution, Elemental Oath and Demonic Pact. I grant you, Moonkin Aura is a lot simpler.
• Leader of the Pack is covered by Rampage.
• Improved LotP is a 2% heal every 6 seconds, at best. Very "meh".

I'd say Tree Form is flat out not "best in slot" - Imp Deovtion is better. Moonkin Aura is inconvenient to work around, but you can do it if you have to. LotP is technially "Best in slot" - but a tiny heal-proc on crits is not a big deal.

Source: Amabar I see no reason why it shouldn't be common to have one each spec paladin. The issue I see is where you start to have overflow from that into 4 pallies. And of course, the restriction that it HAS to be paladins is a clincher as well.

Ideally, there should be no reason why you can't take three paladins. We're one of only two classes that cover all three of tank/heal/DPS. The druid example is a great one, because they cover four roles (ranged and melee DPS to go with tank/heal). But with druids, you're "done" after the first one for Mark of the Wild.

For paladins: Two minimum: One for Kings, one for Wisdom. No equiv to those buffs. Even worse, one spec (prot) still has a "special unique snowflake" of a buff: Sanctuary. And ideally you want three, so the tanks get Kings/Might/Sanc and the melee DPS with blue bars get Kings/Might/Wis. You can use shout instead of might, but it's a minor PITA.

Source: Amabar And don't get the math wrong, if blizzard does their jobs perfectly, then you'll actually have 5 classes with three people in raid, and 5 with only 2. I have every confidence that they will do their jobs at least marginally well.

If you have to do this, they haven't fixed the raid stacking problem, they've just changed it from being group based to class balance based.

Ideally you should be able to build a balanced raid that has:
• minimum one person from each class.
• seeing issues with more than five of a single class.

I don't want a situation where I have to tell the third hunter: "Sorry, you not a healing class, DPS-only classes only get two slots".

To counter-argument your pally example: I see no problem at all with ten druids clearing Naxx-10.

• Two bears
• Two trees
• Three kitties
• Three Boomkin, one of who respecs tree for the fights that need three healers. Or maybe he just specs Dreamstate and is a hybrid DPS/healer for the whole zone.

It will be harder for that 10-man, because they're missing a lot of things. But "10 druid Naxx" should be possible.

I grant you that the 25-druid version should (and most likely will) be a non-starter.

I really, really want "raid stacking" at level 80 to look like this:
• X Tanks
• Y Healers
• Z DPS
• 1 of each class

With very minimal advantages to stacking particular classes. BoMight being better than Battle-Shout due to 30mins vs 2mins is about the level of benefit that is OK. Switching from that level of stacking to "utter perfect raid makeup" should be worth a percentage point or two, at most, ideally less. TBC isn't like that at all. Kings/Sanctuary... not so much - too strong a reason to want 2-3 paladins, and one particular spec (Tankadin). And this is coming from a tankadin!

Your "25 pallies shouldn't be able to clear Naxx-25" is fair enough - for starters, there's no ranged DPS. But to use another counter-example. Assume the correct number of ranged DPS for a particular zone is six:

• 1 mage, 1 warlock, 4 hunters should work fine.
• So should 4, 1, 1
• and 1, 4 1
• And you should be able to drop in a Boomkin if you want, or skip one if none of your druids enjoy balance. Same with Elemental.

[JacenSolo]

raid stacking is rarely due to certain buffs being amazing or certain classes being OP.

it's usually due to some element with the encounter that some classes can handle better than others. ie; mass aoe damage that chain heal is very good against, lots of aoe damage on the melee but the casters are free to go wild, etc

[JacenSolo]

having a certain amount of 1 class for certain buffs really only applies to shaman and paladins. which I think is what blizz intended originally. having 3 paladins and 3 shaman is amazing though, and it makes sense that you would want to stack heavy raid support classes as opposed to say rogues, warlocks, hunters, etc