[JacenSolo]

Nice post, I agree with pretty much everything besides your suggestions for blessings and prot paladin's role while not tanking.

I agree that baseline BoK needs a buff, and I kind of wish they would buff MotW so it actually helps other than some melee stats and some spirit. I don't want them to make all buffs the same though, that's a lazy fix...

Druids only have MotW, it's not like with Paladins where they have a number of blessings. MotW should be buffed.

And as for prot paladins in an OT role. I think they should give them alittle bit of both healing power and dps power. Paladins are hybrids, feral druids, warriors, and death knights are all melee fighters. I'd like to see prot get some more talents to help buff the raid, like enhancment has. BoSanc isn't enough, it's good but it's just not a enough of a reason to bring a prot paladin over another class. But I also disagree that having a hybrid healer isn't as useful as say having a prot warrior dps. Healers do good damage already, prot has enough to do decent damage but that doesn't mean they cant assist with healing when needed, even Elemental Shaman do that.

[Bullwerk]

Source: Joanadark A note about blessings: Where I'm going with this is that there is a very good chance that a raiding Holy Paladin will have kings. ... In a raiding situation, unless the prot paladin is the only paladin available, the prot paladin will not be the one buffing kings. You include kings in every raiding build, except protection. Ironic, but yeah.

What JoandArk said there is the basis of my thought. If there is only one Warrior we have to choose which buff. If there is only one pally you will need to choose which buff. When running 25 man raids there is every likelihood that you will have another source of BoK. None of us can have it all.

As for Righteous Defense I would hazard to say it works as it is now. It might take a little more work or forethought than my taunt. On the upside you have a long range taunt that many a warrior would kill for. And no Intervene and Warbringer do not equate to a long range tuant. It takes fore thought and a bit of work to make it happen... See the pattern? You taunt at range and ge tmultiple targets easy, precision taunt with more effort and fore thought. The reverse is true for warriors. If we really want to go down the road of "complete" parity as I mentioned then they should do away with Prot Specs and make a new class called "Tank"

We may never have the ideal solution to all our classes short comings and oddities, but atleast we have different classes and play styles to choose from. There are many real issues for each class that need to be fixed for sure. Style differences overcome with skill are not one of them.

[Lore]

Source: Kurgen For non tanking situations, paladins are getting a choice right now. Loldps or lolheals. As before we only really had 1 choice, strap on healing gear. I am sure with the stam/spellpower add it will help when the raid needs a lil extra healing nudge or dispeller/heals. Other tanks only have 1 option. Since I do not know the direction Raid encounters, but with Melee unfriendly fights its even a better bonus to be able to pull back and heal.

Here's what I had to say about offhealing vs off-DPS in a post earlier on Maintankadin:

I'd much, much rather have DPS synergy than healing synergy from the prot tree, for far more reasons than just flavor preference. #1: We're going to have DPS synergy whether we want it or not; that's just how tanks work in Wrath. If they want to give us healing synergy instead, they'll have to nerf our DPS, which puts us at a very clear disadvantage for tanking. Why bring a Paladin tank who does 1000 DPS when you could bring a Warrior, Druid, or Death Knight who does 2k+? #2: Having Prot Paladins as the only tank that heals when not tanking screws with encounter balance. Most likely, encounter progression will be tuned toward tanks doing DPS when not tanking, because Warriors and Death Knights aren't capable of off-healing. If we're tuned to off-healing, we'll just be swapped out for another DPS on the fights that don't need the extra tank. #3: If we were capable of all three - competitive main tanking, competitive off-DPS, and enough off-healing to make it worth something - all those arguments about how Paladins are overpowered because they can tank, heal, and DPS would become true. Paladins would be brought over other tanks for their extra healing capabilities. The result is either we put all the Warriors, Druids, and Death Knights out of a job, or we go back to being subpar at all three roles.

[Lore]

Source: Joanadark When there are 4 mobs, not 3, and you are far away. Think Sinister Reflections. Threat moves from ranged vrs closing the range and then using threat moves has one glaring disadvantage. If your ranged threat move somehow fails, you can't do anything. If you're in melee, and something fails, you have all your other tools to draw on, and the target can't escape you.

Avenger's Shield, then Righteous Defense the one you don't hit.

In addition, if you have one tank that needs to pick up 4 mobs while they're all being DPS'ed and the tank is standing in the complete wrong spot to do it, then there is something seriously wrong with your strategy.

What's far more likely in any real situation is that the raid is standing behind you, you drop Consecrate, hit three of them with Avenger's Shield and the last one with HotR as it comes up.

[JacenSolo]

Source: Lore Here's what I had to say about offhealing vs off-DPS in a post earlier on Maintankadin:

I think blizzard knows how they design encounters, and I fail to see how making prot paladins a dps instead of a healer changes it.

Btw, you're complaining that to be viable healers as prot you have to switch gear. Guess what? You have to switch to DPS gear to generate rage and do damage as a Warrior, and DKs/druids are similiar. If you are in your tanking gear and not tanking, you're pretty useless, prot paladins aren't really alone.

[Lore]

Source: Lonan When running 25 man raids there is every likelihood that you will have another source of BoK. None of us can have it all.

The problem is not that I need another source of BoK.

The problem is that I need another source of BoK, BoW, and BoM. As it stands currently, only BoM has any overlap with any other class.

Furthermore, as I've said before, I'm talking purely from a min/max point of view. You've always been able to clear fights while missing buffs, it's just always been better/easier to do it with every buff available. I guarantee that a hardcore raiding guild is going to bring at least 3 Paladins with the way Blessings are set up right now (or worse, bring 1 and have two sitting outside buffbotting). The whole point of the buff convergence is to discourage that sort of min/max raiding by removing the rewards for doing so; I see no reason why Paladins should be exempt.

[Lore]

Source: JacenSolo I think blizzard knows how they design encounters, and I fail to see how making prot paladins a dps instead of a healer changes it. Btw, you're complaining that to be viable healers as prot you have to switch gear. Guess what? You have to switch to DPS gear to generate rage and do damage as a Warrior, and DKs/druids are similiar. If you are in your tanking gear and not tanking, you're pretty useless, prot paladins aren't really alone.

The word "gear" does not appear anywhere in my post. And I wasn't complaining that I'm not a viable healer; in fact, my entire argument was that we shouldn't be.

[JacenSolo]

Source: Lore The word "gear" does not appear anywhere in my post. And I wasn't complaining that I'm not a viable healer; in fact, my entire argument was that we shouldn't be.

Source: Lore #1: We're going to have DPS synergy whether we want it or not; that's just how tanks work in Wrath. If they want to give us healing synergy instead, they'll have to nerf our DPS, which puts us at a very clear disadvantage for tanking. Why bring a Paladin tank who does 1000 DPS when you could bring a Warrior, Druid, or Death Knight who does 2k+?

What exactly are you saying here then? Why would they need to nerf Paladin DPS to give them healing synergy?

[Bullwerk]

Well in that case so don't all the Prot Warriors, Feral Druids and tanking DK's. All are great buffs to hit a raid with but maybe just maybe we might not get a group make up that has all of them. Maybe just maybe we might have to be more than just buff targets and actually play well. If you wipe on a boss because you are lacking a buff then we are all screwed. Yes I understand in progression you want to min/max as much as possible and have done my best to set up my raids with every possible buff. But, If I'm missing one or two I expect my players to be good enough to cope and do their jobs with out them. Lets stop whining about not having every buff under then sun all the time and go play the game and kill stuff. Are you going to call your raid for a missing buff? I know I'm not... I'm going to go and kill that bad guy, buff or not.

When pallies have real concerns like the lack of spell mitigation mentioned why is there effort being wasted on something that isn't encounter breaking?

[Lore]

There are four possible design routes that Blizzard could take with Prot Paladins non-tanking role:

#1: Prot Paladins have competitive off-DPS as well as competitive off-healing capabilties. End result: Every Warrior, Death Knight, and Druid horror story becomes true, and Paladin tanks are considered more attractive to raiding guilds because they're capable of performing 3 roles instead of just 2. This is bad.

#2: Prot Paladins have off-DPS and off-healing capabilities, but they are balanced so as not to eclipse a 2-role tank's off-DPS capabilities. End result: Not only do Prot Paladins suck at off-DPS and off-healing, but do less DPS while tanking as well. This is bad.

#3: Prot Paladins have good off-healing capabilities but poor off-DPS capabilities. We can hold our own as an off-healer without eclipsing the Warrior/Druid/DK off-DPS capabilities, but we still do less DPS while tanking. This is bad.

#4: Prot Paladins have poor off-healing capabilities but good off-DPS capabilities. Our damage while tanking is fine, we're still useful while not tanking, and we're not so overpowered that other tanks are left behind. Perfect.

[Lore]

Source: Lonan Well in that case so don't all the Prot Warriors, Feral Druids and tanking DK's. All are great buffs to hit a raid with but maybe just maybe we might not get a group make up that has all of them. Maybe just maybe we might have to be more than just buff targets and actually play well. If you wipe on a boss because you are lacking a buff then we are all screwed. Yes I understand in progression you want to min/max as much as possible and have done my best to set up my raids with every possible buff. But, If I'm missing one or two I expect my players to be good enough to cope and do their jobs with out them. Lets stop whining about not having every buff under then sun all the time and go play the game and kill stuff. Are you going to call your raid for a missing buff? I know I'm not... I'm going to go and kill that bad guy, buff or not. When pallies have real concerns like the lack of spell mitigation mentioned why is there effort being wasted on something that isn't encounter breaking?

You are still missing my point.

I'm not complaining that I can't have all the buffs. I can, and I will. Lacking those buffs is not an option I have to take, and it's not an option I'm going to take. When it comes to raid invite time, if the Blessing system stays as it is currently, I'm just going to bring 3 Paladins.

I see no reason that Paladins should be the only class with 3 guaranteed raid spots in a min/max guild. I also see nothing unreasonable with my suggestions.

[Bullwerk]

Source: Lore #4: Prot Paladins have poor off-healing capabilities but good off-DPS capabilities. Our damage while tanking is fine, we're still useful while not tanking, and we're not so overpowered that other tanks are left behind. Perfect.

Perfect

I am truly not trying be a jerk here but.. I contend that you just stated an opinion. I know many pallies, almost every one that I know on my server, that are excited about being a viable off healer. Opinion does not make for good design philosophy. In my opinion warriors NEED their stamina given back to be on par with pallies (6% =/= 12% when we will be using mainly the same gear) but it is my opinion and by no means a solution.

Many of us have a great amount of knowledge of our individual classes and just want our class to be as good and fun as possible. This is admirable but we also risk bring ing too much of our personal opinion based on our play style into this and trying to pass it off as truth or "the way"

[Bullwerk]

Source: Lore I see no reason that Paladins should be the only class with 3 guaranteed raid spots in a min/max guild. I also see nothing unreasonable with my suggestions.

Once again that is your opinion. You will be taking three paladins for your runs. That is fine and well, you may have the luxury of doing so. The rest of us might not. I doubt every guild willl have 3 guaranteed raid spots for paladins.

On focusing only on the hardcore of the hardcore min/maxing guilds you miss the issue of class balance. Those guilds will do anyhting to get 1% raid dps or another few percent mitigation. They also make up a small portion of what WoW is now and an even smaller portion of what WoW will be. In either case the needs of min maxing are now much more reasonable than they are on Live. Just one example Shaman Stacking. I prefer the idea of maybe having to bring 3 paladins over having to bring an insane amount of shaman. Remember 25/10 = 2.5, you are going to have 3 of something anyways.

In addition very few raid members require all three of the buffs mentioned. Retadins, Enhance Shammies and Protadins. It will likely turn out that brining another full dps or full healing will provide a reater statistical increase than one person to give on additional buff to a small portion of your raid. We'll see how the numbers turn out. But for now I think this is best left to the realm of opinion and not class or raid balance.

This conversation has gone far enough of track.

[Lore]

I know there are many Paladins that want to be viable offhealers. I kind of run a Paladin forum. Hell, I would love to be a viable offhealer. Unfortunately, there just isn't a way to do that in World of Warcraft, and have it be fair, without severely offsetting tank balance and having it be useful. I'm not going to recommend something be possible that's not going to be good for the game.

It's my opinion, sure, but it's an opinion based on fact and careful consideration. I'd love to be proven wrong, because I'd love for all those Paladins that want to offheal to be able to do what they want. I just don't see how it can happen.

[Lore]

Source: Lonan Once again that is your opinion. You will be taking three paladins for your runs. That is fine and well, you may have the luxury of doing so. The rest of us might not. I doubt every guild willl have 3 guaranteed raid spots for paladins.

Exactly. Which is why I shouldn't be encouraged to bring 3 purely for buffs.

I prefer the idea of maybe having to bring 3 paladins over having to bring an insane amount of shaman.

I prefer option C: Neither.

[JacenSolo]

Source: Lore #1: Prot Paladins have competitive off-DPS as well as competitive off-healing capabilties. End result: Every Warrior, Death Knight, and Druid horror story becomes true, and Paladin tanks are considered more attractive to raiding guilds because they're capable of performing 3 roles instead of just 2. This is bad. #2: Prot Paladins have off-DPS and off-healing capabilities, but they are balanced so as not to eclipse a 2-role tank's off-DPS capabilities. End result: Not only do Prot Paladins suck at off-DPS and off-healing, but do less DPS while tanking as well. This is bad. #3: Prot Paladins have good off-healing capabilities but poor off-DPS capabilities. We can hold our own as an off-healer without eclipsing the Warrior/Druid/DK off-DPS capabilities, but we still do less DPS while tanking. This is bad. #4: Prot Paladins have poor off-healing capabilities but good off-DPS capabilities. Our damage while tanking is fine, we're still useful while not tanking, and we're not so overpowered that other tanks are left behind. Perfect.

Random idiots on the forums saying "LOLZ pallys are op cuz they can heal tank and dps" isn't a problem. And it's certainly not something you balance a class around.

Blizzard said they wanted to make tanks more fun to play. Paladins doing around the same damage as a warrior, druid, and dk and then doing some good offhealing aswell doesn't make them too good. Each class brings something different to the table on top of dps, ie; battle rez, debuffs, sunder, etc.

I really don't see how Blizzard nerfing Paladin damage is an option in any scenario. Prot Paladins while sucky when not tanking, they are made to be tanks in the first place. Blizz isn't going to nerf Prot Paladin damage while tanking. If they give Prot Paladins the option to be good off-healers, it's going to be IN ADDITION to their intended damage capabilties while tanking.

Personally I think you just don't want to heal :P

[Lore]

I don't want to heal if it means my tanking abilities are nerfed, or if it means I'm less useful than an off-DPS tank, yes. I happen to enjoy healing; I played a Holy Priest for almost the entirety of my pre-BC raiding career, and he's still my favorite alt.

The reason the random idiots on the forums are random idiots is because the logic is flawed; Prot Paladins aren't what they're arguing that they are. If Prot Paladins are made to be that, then they cease being random idiots and start being right.

[Zelgius]

Source: Joanadark You're comparing apples to oranges. Theres no reason for built in modifiers because we do the right amount of damage without one. Your class is balanced around it so that you do the correct amount of damage with one. Theres no unfairness here. Its just a threat stance.

Sounds like you want Righteous Fury to be one of your Aura's.

[Alrinea]

got to agree with lore here.
if paladin have no disatvantage at tanking and off-dpsing and get the ability to heal quite well while specced prot every guild will drop other tanks and bring more paladins for the extra flexibility on encounters. lack dps? have a prot pally dps. lack heal? have a prot pally heal. if i can get a pally that can fill 3 roles, why should i bring a random other tanking class that fills only 2 and is not better at them than the paladin?
for blessings: there actually needs to be some serious change - either by integrating e.g. BoSanc into imp devo or by making kings a 11 point talent in our retribution tree so everyone can pick it up (as 1 warrior and 1 warlock in the raid make BoM obsolete). 2 paladins per raid should be just fine. integrating it into MotW would be too much imho, as that is already a rather strong buff for every class, but giving a similar buff to another class would be just fine.

[Alrinea]

Source: Zelgius Sounds like you want Righteous Fury to be one of your Aura's.

that would produce some major threat issues with holy paldins as auras are raidwide ... something along the lines of shadowform should be just fine