[Zartanchi]

You can complain about people who underperform, but do you really do anything about it? Meaning, have you ever stopped and taken time to help someone vs. tell them they suck and you're not there to carry them, blah, blah blah. In the end, ya it's up to the player to make themselves better but sometimes a push in the right direction can go a long way and perhaps create another good player vs. someone to shun.

[Bovinity]

Problem is that Hardmodes are too hard for average players, while Normal is far too easy for them - being tuned down for players who play horribly, but still can make it. Average player (not bad, but not elite either) doesn't really have place to raid atm.

I'm still out to disprove this view with my incessant compulsion to pug everything. (Can I really call it a choice when I don't have a guild at all?)

I really don't believe its a matter of skill at all. (I still don't believe WoW is a skill-heavy game.) More important is just having the desire to accomplish the goals.

Thus far pugs I've run or been a part of have cleared ToC 10, ToC 25, ToGC 10 (Tribute to Mad Skill), and I'm trying hard to set my sights on ToGC 25 next. It's a logistic nightmare to get 25 driven pugs unfortunately, but I'm confident that's truly the hardest part.

I've got another group working on Algalon 10 tonight, but it remains to be seen if people will even show up. That's pugs for ya.

But truly, I'm convinced that the biggest barriers that people have between themselves and seeing content are the ones they put up in front of themselves. Unfortunately most people are willing to throw their hands up in defeat and damn Blizzard before even truly trying their hand at challenging instances.

We can talk about different levels of "skill" and "ability" between players in WoW, but lets be honest...this isn't a game that demands super reaction time or reflexes or constant practice or a lot of book-learnin'. It's a game that's mostly about just doing the right thing at the right time, and pretty much anyone - handicaps aside - can be taught to handle that.

You can complain about people who underperform, but do you really do anything about it? Meaning, have you ever stopped and taken time to help someone vs. tell them they suck and you're not there to carry them, blah, blah blah. In the end, ya it's up to the player to make themselves better but sometimes a push in the right direction can go a long way and perhaps create another good player vs. someone to shun.

I love doing this, actually. (Maybe it's my ego, liking the feeling of being the "teacher" or something) Sadly some people are SO stubborn that they refuse advice, even when the math and logic are laid out before them like a tasty picnic spread they refuse to feast on.

There are people that you can tell to not stand in the fire and they'll say, "Oops, sorry, I didn't know there was fire. I won't do that again." and people who will say, "OMG HEALERS WTF U ALL SUCK".

[Kazeyonoma]

I'm glad that no one took the comments mentioned here to heart but it's important to understand that we have rules here and being offensive (even potentially) to another member by making comments that might be perceived as such should probably be watched.

[Mr.Winkle]

Source: mavfin I have no issue with the gap between them. The hard modes are for those who want that level of challenge. If you don't want to wipe from one person screwing up, don't do hardmodes. I'm not currently doing hardmodes, because the people I raid with collectively aren't suited for it. Half the raid is, but half isn't, so I'm not going to waste my time banging on a wall I don't have the hammers to break. I'm not going to ask for hard modes to be nerfed, either. I have a choice of finding a different group of people, or keeping the status quo, and I've made my choice.

You might not have an issue but others clearly do. I agree with Selyndia the step up is to great. Northrend beasts HC is probably the 2nd hardest boss yet its the first you encounter, this gates the rest of the instance on hardmode.

Whilst it's admirable and probably even business savvy to drop the raiding bar low enough to allow almost anyone to see raid content Blizzard also need to be careful that the large majority of raiders don't get stuck in limbo between clearling challenge free normal modes but unable to progress through gruelling hardmodes.

[Gniew]

Try Ulduar, hard and partial hard modes.

Yeach, you see - I did. Before I left in may. It was one of best instances I've played, and stroke me as damn well balanced (for gear we had then). But now I have noone to go there with, since gear is elsewhere.

You can complain about people who underperform, but do you really do anything about it? Meaning, have you ever stopped and taken time to help someone vs. tell them they suck and you're not there to carry them, blah, blah blah.

Tbh "blah blah blah" holds the most sense in this sentence (no offence). Yes I did - if you did too, you should know situation when you talk to someone, give them advices, doublecheck if they understood, and next raid they do exactly the same mistakes - turns out they dont remember a thing. That's majority - those who take advice are usually those who would find out anyway, since they have the drive to be better than average.

@Bonivity
If you really PUG all this content, I have to say that either you are damn good, on damn specific server, or content you listed is so easy its unbelievable.
Ofc there're PUGs and PUGs. If you get into "pug" with 21 people from top guild who need to fill the raid I am certainly not impressed .

Also this:

But truly, I'm convinced that the biggest barriers that people have between themselves and seeing content are the ones they put up in front of themselves. Unfortunately most people are willing to throw their hands up in defeat and damn Blizzard before even truly trying their hand at challenging instances.

... holds truth. At least partially.

Bad habits show really fast, and they are hard to wipe out. I believe most players wont really play any better than minimum demanded to get new shineys. This shown best at this 2.4-3.1 phase of game.
Raid that killed Vashj and Kael, got caught with situation of 2.4, where everything including Sunwell was doable in t4 (and if you had better gear it was piss easy). Then came Naxx, which was also poor easy.

Effect was, that Malygos 25 (before they nerfed him a bit) turned out to be rock wall that made half of my guild suddenly started to have lots of important things to do on any raidnight other than Naxx farm. I dont even want to mention Sarth+3, which we managed to kill day before Ulduar came...

So I saw decline from decent (not to say - quite good) and ambitious players to simple losers. And since I like to raid with them, and I like to do it well, all I can do is to hope new encounters will be more demanding, so they get used to beating hardmodes again.

[Theotherone]

I apologize if anyone took offense at using a common cliché as an attempt to end what was otherwise becoming a somewhat heated debate on a lighter note. Had I posted the comment with an ill intent, I surely would not have wished my adversary well with her baby.

Going forward, I will remember that there are some who read these boards with a heightened sense of political correctness and/or hyper-sensitivity.

[mavfin]

Source: Mr.Winkle You might not have an issue but others clearly do. I agree with Selyndia the step up is to great. Northrend beasts HC is probably the 2nd hardest boss yet its the first you encounter, this gates the rest of the instance on hardmode. Whilst it's admirable and probably even business savvy to drop the raiding bar low enough to allow almost anyone to see raid content Blizzard also need to be careful that the large majority of raiders don't get stuck in limbo between clearling challenge free normal modes but unable to progress through gruelling hardmodes.

If hard mode is too hard, don't complain about the game being too easy. Look at the people you're raiding with, instead of blaming normal mode for you not being able to do hard mode. That makes no sense at all.

Edit: I mean, to me, you're simultaneously saying the game is 'too hard' and 'too easy' at the same time. You either want challenge, or you don't. Which is it?

[orcstar]

Source: mavfin If hard mode is too hard, don't complain about the game being too easy. Look at the people you're raiding with, instead of blaming normal mode for you not being able to do hard mode. That makes no sense at all. Edit: I mean, to me, you're simultaneously saying the game is 'too hard' and 'too easy' at the same time. You either want challenge, or you don't. Which is it?

What he means is exactly that, the game is both too hard and too easy. The easy modes don't require good play and you need to be a hardcore player to do the hard modes. There's no middle ground.

With a buildup like there was in Ulduar you could go as far as skill and experience took you. Some guilds had trouble with XT, some guild with Mimiron and some with Yogg-Saron.

Now, ALL guilds clear Toc 25 normal, and just a few guilds are able to kill Northrend Neasts heroic.

[swelt]

I'll say again, you should not draw too many long conclusions from ToC. Think about Ulduar. You could not say that mimiron or yogg saron didn't require good play. Just because TOC had so few bosses and they were all pretty easy doesn't mean that's the model for every future raid instance.

[Gniew]

Source: swelt I'll say again, you should not draw too many long conclusions from ToC. Think about Ulduar. You could not say that mimiron or yogg saron didn't require good play. Just because TOC had so few bosses and they were all pretty easy doesn't mean that's the model for every future raid instance.

Problem is that if Blizzard really plans to make content available for everyone (hai fire campers), ICC cant really look like Ulduar.

[Selyndia]

Ulduar progression between normal modes and hard modes was about what I would like. The bosses ramped up in difficulty (Though some might say the complexity of Yogg or even later keepers was a bit higher than the rest of the instance), and the early hard modes (Heartbreaker, post nerf Orbituary, Cache) were about the same point as Yogg +4, and then continued ramping up from there. You never had a wall from Yogg + 4 to Firefighter, or Three Tree.

The problem with the current way ToC is set up, is that it caters to the top and bottom of the class, but mostly ignores the middle ground. ToC was substantially easier than Ulduar to clear, and guilds that couldn't clear Ulduar 25 were downing Anub in the week he became available. I'm not going to argue how good an idea or not that was, but what it did was created a large glut of guilds that could easily clear ToC but now have a huge leap to make to hard modes, instead of the more gradual inclined approach Ulduar allowed.

This, however, may be due in part with the much smaller raid size (in number of encounters). Considering this, if you count Ulduar, and all of its hard modes (And not tiered hard modes like Yogg, FL, AoI or Freya), you had about 24 various encounters that could be spread out, with ToC we had 10. Also, with Ulduar you were able to pick and choose the order you wanted to work on them, while in ToC, it was chosen for you.

I am hoping that ICC resolves a couple of these issues though. With many more encounters between normal and hard, and the ability to work on them as we choose, it allows them to be scaled better accross the board.

[Bovinity]

@Bonivity If you really PUG all this content, I have to say that either you are damn good, on damn specific server, or content you listed is so easy its unbelievable. Ofc there're PUGs and PUGs. If you get into "pug" with 21 people from top guild who need to fill the raid I am certainly not impressed .

Nah, all genuine puggies. But yeah, chances are its more to do with the content being easy than me being damn good.

[mavfin]

Source: orcstar What he means is exactly that, the game is both too hard and too easy. The easy modes don't require good play and you need to be a hardcore player to do the hard modes. There's no middle ground. Now, ALL guilds clear Toc 25 normal, and just a few guilds are able to kill Northrend Neasts heroic.

And you're blaming the difficulty of normal mode for this? That makes no sense. If someone can't complete the hardmodes, it's not the fault of the normal mode's difficulty at all. Asking for normal mode to be harder because someone can't handle hardmode isn't logical. i.e. saying 'too easy' when hardmode is too hard for you (not you personally, orcstar) is not a solution at all.

So, what you're saying is that you want normal mode made more difficult so people can have an 'easier' hardmode, because they can't handle the real one? That makes no sense.

Leave it alone. If you're not committed enough to handle hardmode in the group you're in, then you have the same choice I have. You can move and do the hardmodes with more committed people, or you can see the content the way it is and live with it. Making the normal mode harder so you can find 'less challenge than hardmode' isn't really something Blizzard's going to do, imo. They *want* the rank and file to see their work.

I feel like some of the 'elite' are just using this as an excuse to agitate for less accessible content in general so they can be unique snowflakes again.

[Mr.Winkle]

Source: mavfin Leave it alone. If you're not committed enough to handle hardmode in the group you're in, then you have the same choice I have. You can move and do the hardmodes with more committed people, or you can see the content the way it is and live with it. Making the normal mode harder so you can find 'less challenge than hardmode' isn't really something Blizzard's going to do, imo. They *want* the rank and file to see their work. I feel like some of the 'elite' are just using this as an excuse to agitate for less accessible content in general so they can be unique snowflakes again.

Actually i am committed enough to see the hardmodes, and although my guild is still stuck on NB we are making progress, finally seeing icehowl, just need to kill him now.

But why must i "leave it alone"? Clearly i and many others preffered the Ulduar instance, where not only did the normal mode ramp up in difficulty but also the hardmodes offered varying degrees of difficulty.

I don't see why its so hard to understand that a lot of raiding guilds feel sandwiched between very easy and very hard content with an inability to progress.

Whilst clearly the current system pleases you it doesn't please everyone. I'm happy for content to be accessable, but it needs to be accessable and balanced. A gradual climb rather than a brick wall.

[Gniew]

Leave it alone. If you're not committed enough to handle hardmode in the group you're in, then you have the same choice I have. You can move and do the hardmodes with more committed people, or you can see the content the way it is and live with it. Making the normal mode harder so you can find 'less challenge than hardmode' isn't really something Blizzard's going to do, imo. They *want* the rank and file to see their work.

All I can read here is "my opinion is better because it's mine". Sorry.
Like Mr. Winkle pointed out - there's bunch of players who liked Ulduar more. They were progressing slower, but progressing. ToC offers full clear progress in 1-2 days, while ToGC is accessible only to few.

[Bovinity]

ToGC is accessible to everyone. There are absolutely zero barriers to entry and if you get gear from those "too-easy" normal mode ToC runs then you're plenty geared for ToGC.

Is it less forgiving than normal modes? Of course, that was the point. It's pretty much what Blizzard wanted, people to be able to see the content in normal modes, but to still have some challenging content that people could work on and accomplish, not just steamroll in a week.

Now, if you're rolling in all that ToC normal gear and trying to do ToGC and not getting anywhere, then that's something you just have to work on. All the barriers have been removed, no attunements, no gearing paths that are too steep for many people, no 10-hour raids...it's all there ready to be beaten, you just have to get enough people that really WANT to do it.