[Roana]

Source: Theotherone So an opinion is a "cheap shot"; an opinion based on an end product which I pay for?

An opinion that uses insulting words ("lazy") without supporting evidence to back up those insults is a cheap shot, yes. Hiding behind the opinion label does not change that.

[Mr.Winkle]

Is lazy really an insult? Also i think he did qualify it.

ToC is bad in terms of design when compared to Ulduar. Sure the bosses are there but they get rolled out in a continuous stream in a very mediocre setting.

Anyway as far as i'm aware an opion is a personal view, attitude, or appraisal (so says dictionary.com) so there's no need to provide supporting evidence.

His personal opinion is that to him the instance design appears lazy.

Are we not allowed to dislike certain aspects of WoW now?

[Theotherone]

Source: Roana An opinion that uses insulting words ("lazy") without supporting evidence to back up those insults is a cheap shot, yes. Hiding behind the opinion label does not change that.

Whatever, we should all be more politically correct; I forgot everybody gets a trophy then holds hands and sings Kum-By-Ah. We wouldn't want to offend sensibilities by actually calling them like we see them.

[Roana]

Source: Mr.Winkle Is lazy really an insult? Also i think he did qualify it.

The big point here is that such posts have a poor signal/noise ratio. I can and do write posts that are fairly critical of WoW. But I generally fill them with substantive material, even when it's about matters that do irritate me. Because I don't see public forums as a place to vent my personal spleen, but as a place to communicate with others.

What he doesn't seem to understand is that I'm not particularly worried about Blizzard's hurt feelings (who will probably just shrug off such a post as being too juvenile to worry about, if they ever see it in the first place). What I'm seeing is a poster who perceives a problem (rightly or wrongly), but is unable to analyze or communicate the underlying causes of his discontent, so he rails ineffectively at Blizzard, cluttering the thread with noise.

[Xianth]

Bizzard making ToC is like a bad player raiding ToC, they could do better but why bother when they'll get loads of money anyway?

[puffypaladin]

Source: Roana An opinion that uses insulting words ("lazy") without supporting evidence to back up those insults is a cheap shot, yes. Hiding behind the opinion label does not change that.

Note that while TOTC does *look* easy/lazy, it was part of a long term story telling in WoW3.0, as the arena was here for a rather long time, with quests and build up. This means they didnt come two weeks before 3.2 and just lumped this out. They thought what they want for a long time, and make a road map to reach it. GC (and friends) experimented a lot with WoW raiding. I can only guess but the TOTC idea poped up a year ago - in which they decided to try to put down a dungeon with zero trash and bosses only. They build the story to it along the expensions untill they reached TOTC. Now they see that unless they put some movment space and some trash, people won't enjoy the dungeon. But this is not something without thought, its a very long term R&D which did not went too well with the crowd. But its something being done after a lof of thoguht. A lot.

As for the "bad" player issue - You need to change from "bad" to the "casual" term. Someone who plays causly will not, and wish not to top DPS, and he shouldnt. I have many friends who come to WoW for easy time and fun, while having a few hardcore players. Most of my casual friends joined together in one happy and casual guild. They tried doing uldar10 and couldnt pass the 3rd boss, and missed tons of content. OTOH, they all see TOTC10 fully (thought they still struggle with it, and it took them 2 nights this week to pass it - true, two nights of 2 hours each, but yet).
They are casual players. None of them is too good. They average 3k dps at most times, and when I tell them they can hit 4.5 with thier gear they dont care. And rightfully so, they dont come here to be the best, they come here to enjoy and they enjoy being medicure and enjoy the view around. If I like to play a bit more hardcore (note, I am NOT realy hardcore, just in the middle between causal and hardcore), I will find a guild that do totc10 in 39 minutes, and totc10HM in 2 hours. And truly hardcore will do the insane achiv in the first month.
Causals dont need to hit top ability. They need to hit medium ability. And normal mode need to accomodate it. And from experince it is PERFECT for causals. A bit hard but possible.


TDLR - its "casual" vs "hardcore" (not "bad" vs. "hardcore"), and blizz gave good raid for both type of persons.

P.s. Roana - Great Signature.

[Xianth]

Source: puffypaladin As for the "bad" player issue - You need to change from "bad" to the "casual" term. Someone who plays causly will not, and wish not to top DPS, and he shouldnt. I have many friends who come to WoW for easy time and fun, while having a few hardcore players. Most of my casual friends joined together in one happy and casual guild. They tried doing uldar10 and couldnt pass the 3rd boss, and missed tons of content. OTOH, they all see TOTC10 fully (thought they still struggle with it, and it took them 2 nights this week to pass it - true, two nights of 2 hours each, but yet). They are casual players. None of them is too good. They average 3k dps at most times, and when I tell them they can hit 4.5 with thier gear they dont care. And rightfully so, they dont come here to be the best, they come here to enjoy and they enjoy being medicure and enjoy the view around. If I like to play a bit more hardcore (note, I am NOT realy hardcore, just in the middle between causal and hardcore), I will find a guild that do totc10 in 39 minutes, and totc10HM in 2 hours. And truly hardcore will do the insane achiv in the first month. Causals dont need to hit top ability. They need to hit medium ability. And normal mode need to accomodate it. And from experince it is PERFECT for causals. A bit hard but possible.

I can't say I agree with your definition, when somebody goes casual they don't suddenly go shit, they just play less. If somebody is only getting 25% out of their class with their gear etc. then they are bad or INEXPERIENCED, not casual. They lack the knowledge to play the character through either never learning or not having had the time to learn. It just so happens that the large majority of players that don't play much (ie. are casual) are also "bad", either by a direct side effect of not playing enough to learn naturally or for other reason such as they have no desire to learn the ins and outs of their class.

I could quite easily describe my guild as a casual guild - even if we ran our full schedule we'd only raid 11 hours a week, that's about 2 nights in a hardcore guild. We raid a lot less but when we raid we do it properly. We had the exact same attitude in our 25s in TBC and we still beat most of the guilds on our server. This is because we like to play to game to highest level and get the most out of our characters without putting a hardcore amount of time into raids. We are even only doing about 6 raid hours a week at the moment because we can get everything done (inc ToGC tribute) and would like a nice break before icecrown. That is a "casual" approach and attitude to raiding but it doesn't mean we as players don't give 100% when we are raiding.

[puffypaladin]

Source: Xianth I can't say I agree with your definition, when somebody goes casual they don't suddenly go shit, they just play less. If somebody is only getting 25% out of their class with their gear etc. then they are bad or INEXPERIENCED, not casual. They lack the knowledge to play the character through either never learning or not having had the time to learn. It just so happens that the large majority of players that don't play much (ie. are casual) are also "bad", either by a direct side effect of not playing enough to learn naturally or for other reason such as they have no desire to learn the ins and outs of their class. I could quite easily describe my guild as a casual guild - even if we ran our full schedule we'd only raid 11 hours a week, that's about 2 nights in a hardcore guild. We raid a lot less but when we raid we do it properly. We had the exact same attitude in our 25s in TBC and we still beat most of the guilds on our server. This is because we like to play to game to highest level and get the most out of our characters without putting a hardcore amount of time into raids. We are even only doing about 6 raid hours a week at the moment because we can get everything done (inc ToGC tribute) and would like a nice break before icecrown. That is a "casual" approach and attitude to raiding but it doesn't mean we as players don't give 100% when we are raiding.

Thats why I said casually. Think chess for example. I know some guys who like to play chess casually. OTOH, I have one friend who is really into it, read all kind of books, play all day long against chess AI and go for weekly meetings of chess plays.

Now, when he play against any of my casual friends, he kick their ass. Not surprisingly. Now, they could play 2 times a week, read and learn to play to their best, but they don't want to do that. they are not into heavy playing. They just want an easy and fun game of chess.

Causal means, usually, that they don't even put the time to learn to play to thier best ability. Causal usually mean, they come with mediocre ability, but they enjoy to doing it for fun.

What you describe is not hard core, but not casual either. Its short-time-pro attitude.

If my friends were to have to read all this sites for knowledge, and try all kind of manoeuvres, push themselves to the limit and so on, they wouldn't be casual any more. It would be more then a hobby.

My wife like to grow up things. She is causal in it way, as she just buy the seeds and try to grow them up. At least half of what she tries die quite fast. OTOH my cusion in the country side is past 65 years old, got tons of time, so he read on it and grow up things, in his garden, to his best ability. He is not hardcore gardner, he just short-time-pro.

There are 3 variance of players (and hobby persons) - causal, short-time-pro and hardcore. Blizzard tries to give options to the two extremes. Like always there is a lot of middle ground, and each of the opposites don't like it. But life is like that also. It have a lot of variance in each of our hobbies. And my cousin, when he come to visit our home, do grumble a lot about my wife green thumb. A lot.

[Theotherone]

Source: Roana The big point here is that such posts have a poor signal/noise ratio. I can and do write posts that are fairly critical of WoW. But I generally fill them with substantive material, even when it's about matters that do irritate me. Because I don't see public forums as a place to vent my personal spleen, but as a place to communicate with others. What he doesn't seem to understand is that I'm not particularly worried about Blizzard's hurt feelings (who will probably just shrug off such a post as being too juvenile to worry about, if they ever see it in the first place). What I'm seeing is a poster who perceives a problem (rightly or wrongly), but is unable to analyze or communicate the underlying causes of his discontent, so he rails ineffectively at Blizzard, cluttering the thread with noise.

"Rail"; you're really blowing this out of proportion as you become more and more shrill in your ad hominem attacks. I stated my opinion that ToC when compared to other work was creatively lazy and that I hoped Ice Crown would be better - hardly railing; and frankly, I don't view a discussion about a game as some weighty intellectual endeavor. Nor, do I believe that your posts are the yardstick by which the rest of our posts are measured - despite what appears to be your belief by telling us just how wonderful and thoughtful your posts are.

Perhaps you should view the raid content, then come back and give your opinion. A quick look see on Pugchecker.com reveals that not one of the toons you list here, has downed one boss in any raid instance. Perhaps you have others on which you play that you have actually raided on; however, any link to one now would just be considered a fabrication (i.e. someone’s toon that you grabbed to display), because the emperor (or empress) has been shown to have no clothes.

Raid, view the content, then you can voice a different opinion; but until then you're credibility is 0.

Now, let's see what personal attack you can come back with - so far, you've threatened me, called me juvenile, accused me of insulting because I didn't express my opinion in a manner in which you approve; so what's next - I can't wait.

[Bovinity]

A quick look see on Pugchecker.com reveals that not one of the toons you list here, has downed one boss in any raid instance. Perhaps you have others on which you play that you have actually raided on; however, any link to one now would just be considered a fabrication (i.e. someone’s toon that you grabbed to display), because the emperor (or empress) has been shown to have no clothes.

Wow, did you really just go there? Come on, man.

Causal means, usually, that they don't even put the time to learn to play to thier best ability. Causal usually mean, they come with mediocre ability, but they enjoy to doing it for fun. What you describe is not hard core, but not casual either. Its short-time-pro attitude. If my friends were to have to read all this sites for knowledge, and try all kind of manoeuvres, push themselves to the limit and so on, they wouldn't be casual any more. It would be more then a hobby.

This would hold more water if WoW was the sort of game that demanded great amounts of study to learn. The fact is that WoW isn't that sort of game. If you're really, truly underperforming, there's no "casual" excuse. You're just lazy or don't care.

Honestly, the only time the heavy theorycrafting and such comes out is at that very top 5% of the game, when people who really want to min/max are asking all the math questions, "Exactly how much of X stat is required to peak for this DPS level." etc, etc. For everything else, if you just pay a marginal amount of attention and know what button does what, you should be more than capable of performing at an acceptable level.

Anything else, there's just no excuse. If someone is in their badge-purchased T9 gear and such and they're pulling 2k dps, they're not casual or any other excuse in the guise of a moniker. They're not anything but - frankly - lazy and apathetic about the outcome of the raid.

[mavfin]

Hardcores have the hardmodes specifically made for them. Is that not enough for you, or do you insist on having the entire game tailored to your playstyle? It's not going to happen. The hardmodes are for you, and the normal modes are for other players. Simple as that.

Why do you want to remove that option for other players? Is it just ego and pure selfishness, as in "They shouldn't be able to kill my raid bosses in any mode! Waaah!" That's what I'm seeing. They're not 'your' raid bosses. Blizzard wants as many people as possible to see them, and normal modes are tuned for what Blizzard sees as the 'average' player, and I bet they have a lot more data to know what that is than any of us, as we tend to associate with our own type(s) of player. Hardmodes are tuned for people who want more challenge.

[Bovinity]

I don't think anyone wants normal modes and such removed. At least I hope not, because you're right...that would be just silly and indicative of some real ego problems.

[Roana]

Source: Theotherone A quick look see on Pugchecker.com reveals that not one of the toons you list here, has downed one boss in any raid instance.

I could have told you myself that I haven't set a foot in a raid instance since WotLK began (TBC was somewhat different). The reasons are simple: I had a baby a little over a year ago and I've been living overseas since January, so US raids tend to happen in the middle of the night for me (both of my guilds do indeed start their raids after midnight for my time). I may be doing some casual raiding in the coming months, but between having two children, a husband (who doesn't play WoW), a job, and living overseas even that is going to be limited.

However, this is irrelevant. I was not commenting on raid content at all, nor was I making any claims based on anything that requires raid experience.

I have never made a secret out of the fact that I'm at best a casual player (though I try to be as good as I can be within the limits of my time constraints). That has not stopped me from contributing substantially both here and on the EJ forums in matters where I could contribute something.

Source: Theotherone Perhaps you should view the raid content, then come back and give your opinion.

I am not sure why I need to. I am not planning to give a critical review of any of the raid instances, so it is unnecessary. Conversely, just because you have raided an instance does not make your criticism gospel, especially if you do not put any effort in supporting it. I was not commenting on the raids; I was commenting on your inability to express a coherent criticism of them.

[Bovinity]

That was a pretty terrible thing to say as well, sir.

I'd recommend quitting while you can!

[Selyndia]

Hardcores have the hardmodes specifically made for them. Is that not enough for you, or do you insist on having the entire game tailored to your playstyle? It's not going to happen. The hardmodes are for you, and the normal modes are for other players. Simple as that. Why do you want to remove that option for other players? Is it just ego and pure selfishness, as in "They shouldn't be able to kill my raid bosses in any mode! Waaah!" That's what I'm seeing. They're not 'your' raid bosses. Blizzard wants as many people as possible to see them, and normal modes are tuned for what Blizzard sees as the 'average' player, and I bet they have a lot more data to know what that is than any of us, as we tend to associate with our own type(s) of player. Hardmodes are tuned for people who want more challenge.

I think a big part is how raiding is currently set up on plateaus instead of a ramp, and getting from tier to tier is much harder for guilds that are trying to advance.

My issue isn’t so much that raids aren’t that challenging (Hard modes certainly are), but in that to go from normal to heroic is such a leap, and that the progression should be a much smoother effort instead. You go from fights that you can ignore Incinerates, let people with Toxin die, or outright miss Twin’s Pacts, to fights where Incinerate can wipe a raid, lost members to Jormungar can cause wipe due to DPS loss and Twin’s Pact going off can cause an enrage, or drag the fight out long enough to outlast healer Mana.

If the raid loses 7 or 8 people to Jormungar by completely messing up the mechanic of the phase, should they still kill the boss or should completely messing up and having nearly a third of your raid dieing cost you the kill because you don’t know how to deal with it? And then after getting them used to this for five weeks, then throwing them into a version of the encounter where only a single person messing up on a mechanic can cause a wipe. This disparity is what I’m looking at. It shouldn’t be “No one mess up at all or we wipe!” on normal, but it shouldn’t be “Alright, a third to half the raid is dead, but we can still do this because it doesn’t matter that all those mistakes were made.”

The hard modes are a little too unforgiving in the earlier ones (Beasts) and the bosses in normal are a little too forgiving; both should be tweaked a bit and it would make a more enjoyable experience for all ends…

[Roana]

Source: Bovinity That was a pretty terrible thing to say as well, sir.

Actually, I thought he was just being funny. It's not like anybody believes these cliches in earnest anymore, so I figured the comment was an attempt at humor.

[mavfin]

Source: Selyndia My issue isn’t so much that raids aren’t that challenging (Hard modes certainly are), but in that to go from normal to heroic is such a leap

Actually, I don't have a problem with it at all.

The normal modes are tuned for what Blizzard, with all their data on what people do in WoW, sees as the 'average player who wants to raid'. Normal modes are for people to see the content. This won't change, no matter how much the 'elite' wish it to. They don't 'own' the bosses. Blizzard does. If 'normal' mode is too easy for you, then fine, don't run it. Go straight into hardmode and find your challenge. If you can't do that, then why are you complaining about stuff being too easy?

The hardmodes are for people to bang their heads on and learn if they want to put the time into it, as in the Vanilla/BC model. The high-end guilds won't find enough challenge in some of the hardmodes, but, Blizzard has found that putting Sunwell-type challenge in more than one or two fights isn't good for their bottom line. In return, you get shinies with 'Heroic' on them, and other titles/mounts/items that most of the playerbase will never see, or at least never see till the next patch makes them obsolete and no longer special. Your 'specialness' from a given raid tier is only for that tier. Get used to it.

I have no issue with the gap between them. The hard modes are for those who want that level of challenge. If you don't want to wipe from one person screwing up, don't do hardmodes. I'm not currently doing hardmodes, because the people I raid with collectively aren't suited for it. Half the raid is, but half isn't, so I'm not going to waste my time banging on a wall I don't have the hammers to break. I'm not going to ask for hard modes to be nerfed, either. I have a choice of finding a different group of people, or keeping the status quo, and I've made my choice.

[Theotherone]

Source: Roana Actually, I thought he was just being funny. It's not like anybody believes these cliches in earnest anymore, so I figured the comment was an attempt at humor.

We finally agree on something. Glad you took it in the spirit in which it was meant.

[Gniew]

Hardcores have the hardmodes specifically made for them. Is that not enough for you, or do you insist on having the entire game tailored to your playstyle? It's not going to happen. The hardmodes are for you, and the normal modes are for other players. Simple as that.

Problem is that Hardmodes are too hard for average players, while Normal is far too easy for them - being tuned down for players who play horribly, but still can make it. Average player (not bad, but not elite either) doesn't really have place to raid atm.

[Risky]

Source: Gniew Problem is that Hardmodes are too hard for average players, while Normal is far too easy for them - being tuned down for players who play horribly, but still can make it. Average player (not bad, but not elite either) doesn't really have place to raid atm.

Try Ulduar, hard and partial hard modes.