[Bashal]

My feeling is people are being a little alarmist, here. I think some people may have forgotten what a bad player is really like, if for no other reason than that they are routinely surrounded by decent ones. In that situation, your perception of "bad" can slide a little too far towards "fairly good".

Source: Selyndia My biggest issue with normal ToC is that, while it has quite a few decent mechanics that should be payed attention to, in most cases, they can be ignored or missed with little to no repercussions. Examples: Beasts of Northrend and Icehowl’s Massive Crash/Charge. On normal, not only is the ability trivial to get away from (Thanks to the run speed boost) but even if you don’t run away, the enrage effect is removable, and the enrage timer is so long that missing the extra damage doesn’t matter at all...[Frothing Rage] can be healed through (Hurts like a bitch though)...

• How many underperforming players can actually get out of the way of that? I've seen quite a few bad players still get nailed.
• How many underperforming players actually think to use tranq shot/etc. to remove the enrage? Very, very few. Maybe even none, until someone tells them to do it, and they go "oh, oh yeah, right... let me put that on my bar...where is that in my spellbook, anyway?"
• How many underperforming healers can handle something that "hurts like a bitch"? An underperforming healer, a lazy-mode healer, will not be able to save the tank.

Maybe it's the way my guild does things, but if we get someone who has potential, we encourage it. If they don't take the bait, if they want to be carried, they don't get into raids with us. It's a very effective incentive.

[Durandro]

Perhaps a rebrand is in order. Instead of 'Heroic' mode, have an 'Easy' mode. Then tune 'Normal' to be difficult.

End result is exactly the same, but the bads will know they are doing easy mode. Thus they have more reason to go for 'Normal' mode. Theoretically.

As an asside, I think Normal and Heroic modes should share lockdowns, but the lockdown only applies to each boss. So you can do Beasts on Heroic, for example, and then the rest on normal (but make is so you have to complete each encounter on Heroic in order, so you can't avoid Heroic Beasts). I've heard Icecrown is going to be a bit like this, so that bodes well in my opinion.

And bonus bosses are always the way to go in my opinion. Personally I think Anub'arak should have been a bonus boss that you could only get in Heroic. In normal you'd down Twins and then have a little award ceramony saying 'Well done, come back next week.'

[derangedhermit]

Source: Durandro Perhaps a rebrand is in order. Instead of 'Heroic' mode, have an 'Easy' mode. Then tune 'Normal' to be difficult. End result is exactly the same, but the bads will know they are doing easy mode. Thus they have more reason to go for 'Normal' mode. Theoretically

Eh? Why should a rebrand like that be in order when it's the 'hardcore' that feel bad about other persons being able to do the same content as them?

[Durandro]

To encourage people to up their game. Rebrandings don't actually change anything, they just make them seem to have changed.

Say you get a new game. You have two settings - Normal and Hardcore. Most people will pick Normal.

Now change this to Easy and Normal, which do most people take? Normal again. They will usually only go down to Easy if they are unable to play the game on Normal.

Thus, if we applied it to Wow, most people will attempt the harder version. In theory. If they fail, they either give up and go down to Easy, or they keep trying until they nail it. Right now even the word 'Heroic' implies that people shouldn't even attempt it unless they are of the elite, it scares them off, so even players who might be able to do it shy away.

Hense, the rebrand. Doesn't change anything bar persception.

[Roana]

Source: Xianth I know what you're saying, but the expectation isn't on every one who wants to raid to be able to raid at the top level. The main gripe is that over time, as people are challenged in the game some people develop their ability or desire to achieve naturally, some need a push, some don't care at all (and that's fine). The problem is if the people who "need" a push don't get it, you have a signifcantly lower population of players filtering to the level that they are "hard mode capable". This can be a cummulative problem for people like me and other posters here who rely on a decent player base at that level to sustain being able to play at that level themselves - people quit, get old, have kids, etc. etc. and there needs to be the opposite happening with people developing their skills or changin their goals in the game to balance the big raiding bubble.

I understand that, but in the end, if you want to have competent players, they need to be taught. Raid encounters that "teach" by punishing players harshly for individual failures by making the entire raid fail don't accomplish that and have severe downsides.

There are various ways how you can accomplish the necessary teaching process, but demanding that Blizzard create a huge barrier to entry that essentially acts as a competence filter for 80%-90% of the player base is not going to help (and not going to happen). In fact, requiring that you assemble 25 really competent players for every single raid is something that most raid leaders would thoroughly hate, I suspect.

It's one of the reasons why I think that large raids (more than 10 players) do not have a great future in MMOs. While there's a certain attractiveness to being able to develop huge encounters on a grand scale, the problems with having to continually organize such large events are too severe. WoW is stuck with it, because of historical accidents, player expectations, and overly narrow class roles. But I don't expect to see a whole lot of other MMOs successfully imitate this model.

[Dreg]

Source: Roana It's one of the reasons why I think that large raids (more than 10 players) do not have a great future in MMOs. While there's a certain attractiveness to being able to develop huge encounters on a grand scale, the problems with having to continually organize such large events are too severe. WoW is stuck with it, because of historical accidents, player expectations, and overly narrow class roles. But I don't expect to see a whole lot of other MMOs successfully imitate this model.

I really hope you're wrong here, because while it may be tough and sometimes a PITA its what makes bigger raids feel like an accomplishment.

If you look back at Vanilla, only ~25/40 people were good or trying most of the time. now that content seemed harder than anything now due to mechanics being different but if you look at the fights they're all more simple than the easiest boss now. even still they felt more epic to me atleast, than anything now because you had 40 people working together to accomplish something. where as 10 mans feel like free loot designed to please the masses.

IMO 10 mans in every teir (the same instance as the 25 to boot) is the real problem. god knows i hate running toc 6 times a week. 25, alt 25, ToGC25, 10 man, alt 10, 10 TOGC.

[Theotherone]

Some one said it best, ToC is filler and looks like it was thrown together in a week - real lazy man's work. I think it's only purpose is to gear players for ICC. Ulduar really is a beautiful instance (I love the room with the planets) and some fun fights, and I guess I'm one of the noobs that hasn't cleared it yet (gotten up to Thorim between my two main toons), but I love going in there. It really feels like Bliz gave a damn when they made Uldar. ToC, meh, boring, but nice loot - hopefully ICC will be more on the Ulduar scale.

In the begining the easy gear-up with Conquests bothered me, now I think it's the greatest thing for gearing alts. Frankly, it doesn't bother me about who gets to see the content at what level or whether they deserve to or not - they pay their $14.95 just like I do. The only time it ever effects me is when I PuG and the effect has been I PuG much much less as a tank, and much more as a hunter (hence the gear is not as good on my tank -QQ- as on my hunter). The other effect is there is this whole PuG community on my server, since certain instances are really PuG instances; VoA and Ony come to mind. We tend to know each other and steer clear of overgeared/undertalented players - and for those with that rep, it's kind of not fair that they geared up easy.

Anyway, it's a game and meant to be fun. On average, those of like talent will find each other and do the content according to their skill level (then again there's the damn hunter in blues and greens putting out 900 dps in VoA 25 that wins the roll over me for the lvl 245 pants.) He actually needed them more, so.perhaps it was fair.(Nah, I'll be honest, it stunk)

[Roana]

Source: Dreg I really hope you're wrong here, because while it may be tough and sometimes a PITA its what makes bigger raids feel like an accomplishment.

I fully understand that preference. I'd be pretty happy if a solution could be found, but I'm looking at it from the point of an MMO publisher: Large raids that are even moderately challenging are events with a huge organizational and personal barrier to entry and simply do not make for good revenue.

MMORPGs are a fringe hobby. Very few people play them. WoW may sound massive, but we're talking about maybe 1% of US population playing it, last I checked, with a large fraction of it being teenage boys (the ratio of male:female players in the 25-40 years range seems to be relatively balanced, according to Nielsen Ratings). To reduce your target audience even further is probably not good business, especially considering that a lot of your players are already part of a low-income segment of the population.

If there's another successful MMORPG even close to the scale of WoW, I expect that interesting solo and small group play (with your spouse and/or friends) will be a key element to making it attractive, with any larger events almost requiring that they can be put together spontaneously.

[Roana]

Source: Theotherone Some one said it best, ToC is filler and looks like it was thrown together in a week - real lazy man's work.

I would be careful in using a term such as "real lazy man's work".

WoW raid instances are huge development efforts. Ulduar probably cost millions to make and had a few developer-years of effort put into it. Blizzard had about 140 developers at last count, and an even bigger QA team. While not all of these 300+ people will be working on raid instances full time, between artwork, story and encounter development, programming, testing and playtesting you're still talking about a massive development effort. And game developers are employees in a fairly cut-throat industry: If they were actually lazy, they'd get fired.

Yes, ToC probably was far less effort than Ulduar to develop. That means that they could release it when they did, and not wait another three months or even longer, not that they were lazy. We're talking about the problem of finite resources here, not the unwillingness of producing something with more fleshed-out content.

[Theotherone]

Source: Roana I would be careful in using a term such as "real lazy man's work".

Careful of whom? The Bliz thought police going to hunt me down, because I feel they dogged it on something.

Let me clarify, ToC comes across as a bolt-on, spit and bubble gum piece of work compared to other content i.e. Ulduar. So, perhaps, it would be clearer to say "creatively lazy". Doesn't mean it's not fun, it just doesn't have the feel of a lot of creative/artistic effort being put into it. That said, I realize that we don't pay extra for the "new" content that comes in patches, but it's in Bliz's economic interset to give its subscribers something new with which to play.

[mavfin]

Source: orcstar I really don't care about what gear people can get, what I care about is with how much underperforming you can get away with. And my feeling is that you can underperform a lot more in TotC then you could in Nax without having an impact on the success.

I have one comment here: How much underperforming was there in Vanilla? A lot. I tanked in 40-man days, and I watched a lot of lazy, slacking DPS play cards while we wiped to figure out encounters. And died because lazy healers were watching TV.

The same people are still out there, joined by more because of Blizzard's higher accessibility policies. They will always be there: the people who only play as well as they have to to get the shinies, and no more than that.

It's not a new problem. The only decision for you to make is whether to allow them in your raids or not. If they're not in your raids, they're not hurting you, they're just having as much fun as they wish to put out the effort for.

[Legionodeath]

This has been a very interesting read. There are lots of good ideas and interesting opinions. I hope Blizz reads this thread.

My problem, my opinoin is that bad players shouldn't have access to the same gear I earn for less effort. When I go pug an instance and have to deal with poor playing, unskilled players wiping the raid repeatedly for the same stupid mistakes, it takes all the fun out of the game.

I don't understand why some players who are unskilled and called out for it don't seek to improve and better themselves. THAT doesn't make any sense. If someone tells me I suck because of x, y, and z. I'm going to go find out what I can do to fix the problem(s).

Self improvement and the desire for it, isn't and shouldn't be reserved for the top tier players. Those that are clearing heroic and hard mode content shouldn't be the only ones reading and researching their classes. All players should know how to play correctly.

If you have fun playing poorly and don't know it think how much MORE fun you could/would have if you knew what you were doing and the purpose behind it. To do even more DPS or heal or tank better, more effectively. Its not a matter of hardcore or casual its a matter of not caring enough to improve yourself for the benefit of the raid. Becuase the raid is what its all about.

-LoD

[Risky]

Source: Legionodeath My problem, my opinoin is that bad players shouldn't have access to the same gear I earn for less effort. -LoD

Bad players won't be getting heroic caliber 245-270+ anytime soon. Unless they're carried.

Wow's top tier players don't think ToGC25 is that hard. "Normal" players in 226-245 loot will have a great deal of difficulty progressing at all in ToGC, and the loot is dramatically better with a heroic tag.

[Aggathon]

I didn't read a whole lot of the posts, because I thought the thread could have been over with Mael's first post.

However, I will say, that I don't want the Lich King to be even remotely easy on any difficulty. I mean... he's the f***ing Lich King!!!! Or if you do it on easy roll credits like in Star Fox 64 and he's really actually still alive or something.

[Irat]

I agree with Roana for the most part. If you make raiding less accessible it does breed better players but it is bad for the game as a whole.

However if you make the gap between normal and heroic to big you cut out the middle group of players. The ones that cant make or don’t want to be hardcore players but still play the game for a challenge.

ToC is a perfect example of this, I could pull a pug group together in 15min and probably clear ToC but a lot of guilds are getting stuck on ToGCs first boss because the step up in skill is just to big.

I do however have hope. Ulduar imo was a good balance, by the time you got through normal you were skilled enough to start on hardmodes. I'm confident that blizz will make ICC will be alot like this, the Lich King will not be a face roll. ToC was just to bridge the gear gap, and ToGC was to make sure the hardcore comunity had a way to stand apart from the casuals.

[Muffin Man]

Source: orcstar I really don't care about what gear people can get, what I care about is with how much underperforming you can get away with. And my feeling is that you can underperform a lot more in TotC then you could in Nax without having an impact on the success. and I think that lowering the bar too much is a bad thing. No matter if you're hardcore or casual. Even if casual there has to be some kind of challenge. How far does accessible go? Till the point that autoattacking/wanding is enough to complete an encounter?

I'm of a double mind here.

On the one hand, Greedy Goblin went through a *lot* of numbers before clearing Ulduar in blues gear. His analysis was that the at the time current BiS gear only gave you a 30% performance increase over what you were doing in blue gear.

On the other hand, I saw plenty of Naxx/25 locks doing less than 2k dps, then before 3.1 hit I saw some of them up to 4k or so in the same gear (I use locks as an example because I think they had a pretty new rotation to learn when LK came out).

So sure, performance can swing wildly between good and bad players and as gear improves that gap will only widen, but maybe not as much as you fear when you say it's easier to slack in ToC than in Naxx.

But thena gain, hasn't that always been the case? Does this encourage poor play any more than 40 man raids with 7 prot warriors cuz only 35 people in your guild showed up on time? Even in TBC good guilds were selling Amani Warbears since they could basically 9-man a 4-chest run. I don't necessarily think it promoted poor play back then.

I suppose you could argue that the total divorce between easy and hard modes means that you can slack through easy mode then put on your game face for hard modes. Whereas in ZA not only was hard mode and easy mode exclusive, but you couldn't go back to hard mode when you pleased (as you could in Ulduar for different bosses).

I don't think it's really a problem. When Kara first came out you brought 3 healers and 2 tanks. When you started farming it, you 2 healed it and sometimes even 1 tanked it. So there's always been room to slack if your group/guild permits it. In fact I got the majority of my raid gear in TBC after being mostly carried through Kara as an OT for a badge run.

I'm not so sure that ToC is tuned at such a level that pugs can slack right off the bat, but of course once groups walked out of the harder modes with better gear and better experience, they could start carrying slackers with them.

[Roana]

Source: Theotherone Careful of whom? The Bliz thought police going to hunt me down, because I feel they dogged it on something.

Careful of accuracy.

Blizzard will probably never even see your post, and I don't really care much about what Blizzard thinks. But such cheap shots still don't advance the discourse. If you want to provide criticism of the design of a raid instance, that's perfectly doable without insulting anybody. Criticism that has substance is generally more convincing, too, as opposed to the standard riff on Blizzard/Microsoft/OtherBigEvilCompany as having some undesirable attribute or another, which you can't possibly know unless you're privy to their internal workings and procedures.

[risucdul]

I think if you can trivialize recent encounters that aren't so old in a way like this, something is wrong

[Asheowyn]

yes

edit: 'Post quick reply' hmm ;p

[orcstar]

To compare TotC 25 with Nax 25 I think PuGs might be an indication.
Some really good and dedicated players cleared Nax in T6.
Then the somewhat more motivated players came and cleared it somewhere in between 4-8 weeks later.

In the 1-2 months after that the other guilds managed a Nax and after that the PuGs came.

TotC was PuGged from day 1.