[luv2tank]

T9 isnt all that and a bag of chips, and if you are pugging just look for the ppl with the rare gear and weapons before you take a tank w/ 4/5 T9 + northern barrier + every other BoE/crafted piece in the game.

[Insahnity]

Source: felhoof If you're having problems figuring out whether someone is good, don't look at their gear, look at their achievements.

You get the warm and fuzzy from people with hard modes. It is possible to be carried in normal modes, more challenging to carry people in hard modes. Also, the length of time the achievement has been in place is indicative (even if partially carried, if you have been there 16 times you are bound to have learned something).

If you're still having problems, do a run or two with them. I can guarantee you that for every person that wants to raid and has tons of crappy gear, there's another player who wants to raid and knows their stuff, and would have otherwise been stuck farming instances for months to get remotely decent gear in a couple pieces.

This. The premise of guild building. Running with them even once shows good tendencies (having consumables, enchanting/gemming gear patterns, asking intelligent questions about content they don't know based on having seen strategy guides, etc.)

What I find is that many people don't follow up.

[Shivan]

Baddie + Badge Gear = Baddie in decent to good gear. Should the casual good player be penalized becuase they can not raid 4 or 5 nights a week just so the less skilled can not get gear?

One thing that I would not mind seeing [this is off the top of my head and their could be more cons than pros] is to move the 5 man dungeon achievemnts to a hard mode setting so that the only way you can complete the encounter is to complete the acheivement. Sure there might be more wipes but I might make doing 5 mans less trivial. I would not have a problem with the last generation tokens be tied to such a hard mode. That might be to penalizing though as well and god knows how much development time that would take.

[Unger]

I am seeing both sides to the story. One one hand, during the days of the Burning Crusade, we had to look at the tanks with the Wall of Terror run by every day and it was a bit of a badge of honor. These days, we have that, but it doesnt last 4-5 months. Its more like 4-6 weeks.

We dont raid for gear.... sure enough. But we all love our toons enough to know that we want to differentiate them from others. That is why people pay crazy amounts of gold for things like extra mounts, chef's hats, etc. For the raider, we want our reward too.... something that says "we have accomplished this" that we can wear around all day. Something cool that isnt easy to get.....

I can understand this. So perhaps Blizzard has it right to give this gear to casual players.... but they should probably set aside something.... a weapon, a shield, a helmet.... SOMETHING that allows the top end players the opportunity to have some bragging rights too. They do this somewhat with the special mounts off end game bosses (Alganon).

What do you say Blizz?? How about one for each class.....?

[Synapse]

Source: Unger I am seeing both sides to the story. One one hand, during the days of the Burning Crusade, we had to look at the tanks with the Wall of Terror run by every day and it was a bit of a badge of honor. These days, we have that, but it doesnt last 4-5 months. Its more like 4-6 weeks. We dont raid for gear.... sure enough. But we all love our toons enough to know that we want to differentiate them from others. That is why people pay crazy amounts of gold for things like extra mounts, chef's hats, etc. For the raider, we want our reward too.... something that says "we have accomplished this" that we can wear around all day. Something cool that isnt easy to get..... I can understand this. So perhaps Blizzard has it right to give this gear to casual players.... but they should probably set aside something.... a weapon, a shield, a helmet.... SOMETHING that allows the top end players the opportunity to have some bragging rights too. They do this somewhat with the special mounts off end game bosses (Alganon). What do you say Blizz?? How about one for each class.....?

No badge gear is better than the top available tier.

[theholyfx]

Source: Unger One one hand, during the days of the Burning Crusade, we had to look at the tanks with the Wall of Terror run by every day and it was a bit of a badge of honor.

Wait.. you saw tanks with WOLK gear back before it was even released... now those are hardcore tanks...

[Theotherone]

I didn't like this idea at first, but in all honesty, it allowed me to gear my hunter alt fast; to the point that it's better geared than my tank main. It also makes me want to level some of my other alts; it's fun to learn other toons. Still easy gear does make for some well geared, unskilled players; and some really interesting raids.

[cael]

Let me just say I love that blizzard does this.

In bc My tank was stuck in kara content and I had done some T5 but when those guilds collapsed most guilds were in BT and my gear just wouldn't cut it. In comes badge gear and all of a sudden I could contribute and see content I would never have been able to previously.

Now that I've had to grind to get the best gear to progress in wtolk I can appreciate those that feel jipped cause they had to work so hard. But you shouldn't forget that this will allow skilled players an opportunity to help you see even more!

[Lulia]

Source: Unger I can understand this. So perhaps Blizzard has it right to give this gear to casual players.... but they should probably set aside something.... a weapon, a shield, a helmet.... SOMETHING that allows the top end players the opportunity to have some bragging rights too. They do this somewhat with the special mounts off end game bosses (Alganon). What do you say Blizz?? How about one for each class.....?

It's already like this. There are plenty of things that you can't get with badge gear in the latest content. In 3.3, people will be farming for Triumph, but all of the top-tier content runners will be wearing the latest and greatest stuff from Icecrown and Icecrown hard modes. Stuff that most other people won't have.

[jworley]

Personally I don't see the problem with the badges allowing for a full set of the lowest level T9 gear. There is still plenty of higher level gear that can only be accessed through regular raiding. Plus if Icecrown ends up being on the same level of difficulity as Sunwell was back in the day, then increasing the number of people who are geared enough to end it can only help the pug community in my opinion.

[Kamani]

Source: Roana "Everywhere" being mostly limited to the United States of America, actually. You don't generally see the same degree of obsession with quantitative stats in European sports. Note that I'm not saying that either is good or bad, just that the "human need for a tangible scoring basis to rate and label everything" is less universal than you claim.

If you limit it to fantasy football then you come to your conclusion.

People drive nice cars, live in big houses, flaunt their paychecks and how much their outfits cost. Italian's certainly like to boast about the fact that they have 4 world cups. Brazlian's too.

[Dozer.V2]

Every patch these posts pop up, Give it a rest allready >_<

[felhoof]

We dont raid for gear.... sure enough. But we all love our toons enough to know that we want to differentiate them from others. That is why people pay crazy amounts of gold for things like extra mounts, chef's hats, etc. For the raider, we want our reward too.... something that says "we have accomplished this" that we can wear around all day. Something cool that isnt easy to get.....

Something like...the ironbound proto-drakes? Or the special cloaks that you can only get from Insanity tributes? Or heck, the heroic versions of the T9 gear?

Or special titles like Starcaller and Celestial Defender and Twilight Vanquisher?

Just checking.

[ac4_n]

And "casual raiding" is not all rush-to-the-most-difficult-raid-for-hours. But it`s still "raiding".As a "casual-raider", I know that guild-raids can happen at random times, depending on player availability. That mean,lots of times (because of time-zone), I`ll have to PUG in order to raid and here`s where the main problem comes up. I like raiding for the joy of it, doing something more challenging that 5-mans but I do enjoy the gear from it as well. But the problem is that most players would join a PUG-raid for the gear. And when same gear is available from 5-mans, why bother ?? Sure, you get the BEST gear from top-end-raids, but those aren`t really for casual raiders. I understand the idea to let new-80`s to get good gear, but PLEASE, keep the 5-man gear, reward at some levels below ANY raids. As for comparing based on ach`s, sure, it`s a good idea but again, how to get ach`s when most people are content with 5-mans ?

[thedrawrf]

If you are raiding toc 10 and 25 currently, you'll likely be raiding icecrown when it becomes available, and, hopefully, getting t 10 gear. The people collecting Triumph badges will be starting to get t9 gear, as you start to get t 10.

The problem?

[Trondhjem]

Each major patch the same nerdrage: "why do they get the gear I earned so hard, that easily?"

the answer: skill > gear, so wth dont you just grant the casuals their purple equipment, months after you got it?!

[Roana]

Source: Kamani People drive nice cars, live in big houses, flaunt their paychecks and how much their outfits cost. Italian's certainly like to boast about the fact that they have 4 world cups. Brazlian's too.

And yet, you'll find no equivalent to batting averages or quarterback ratings. Success, obviously, is welcome everywhere, but the obsession with detailed sports statistics is primarily an American phenomenon. World cup wins aren't something comparable, just as superbowl wins (or NFL titles, if you're a Packers fan) aren't the only statistic tracked in football.

Attempting to quantify performance is certainly a perfectly valid goal (one that I'm very much in favor of myself in many areas), but there is no universal "human need for a tangible scoring basis to rate and label everything", as you put it.

I do ballroom dancing non-competitively (and far too rarely). Scores and any forms of quantitative analysis are pretty much useless there in order to improve myself. Others dance competitively, and obviously, they very much care about how their performance is judged, numerically. Both are perfectly fine ways to go about this hobby. Neither is universal.

[Synapse]

Source: Kamani If you limit it to fantasy football then you come to your conclusion. People drive nice cars, live in big houses, flaunt their paychecks and how much their outfits cost. Italian's certainly like to boast about the fact that they have 4 world cups. Brazlian's too.

5.

[Ramnath]

This is why I've taken an much more casual approach to raiding. Real life circumstances changing didn't lend my raiding schedule as much freedom as say back in Vanilla. The badge gear in TBC was pretty good as well. I consider myself a very good raider when I can attend 25s and I run with a regular group in 10s.

Knowing that I can still get high quality epic gear at a slower pace fits my schedule perfectly. It's not quite the same feels as having T2 gear from BWL when it was cutting edge and that type of gear really set you apart from the rest. I'll have to agree there are so many times people are invited to a group and perform well under their gear ilvl. It is what it is. I've played the game since launch and I don't see myself stopping any time soon.

[Bashal]

Source: ac4_n ...how to get ach`s when most people are content with 5-mans ?

I wouldn't say they are content to do 5's; a lot of people I know use ToC5 to gear up an alt, or because they can't make most raid times; it's more of a case of settling for what is achievable. Given a choice, I'd rather raid for gear than forever do 5-mans.

When you think about it, forming a 10-man isn't a lot harder than getting together a 5-man group, if your guild can get two heroic groups running at the same time, well, that's a raid you could form instead. It's the 25's that more casual guilds would find harder to assemble (at least that is the case for my guild).

If your guild is so casual (or so small) that even a 10-man is a rare thing, I'd say it was more of an issue of the temperament of the players in your guild than any kind of general trend in WoW. If they (and yourself) are happy with that, then well and good. If they aren't, they can change things.