[Taaryn]

I logged onto the PTR today and was pleased to see that the proc/talent bugs have been resolved. So, I jumped on my copied warrior (Taadoodle!) and redid her talents. I took 3/5 Shield Spec. as I kind of wanted to add a somewhat random element to the rage gains, took points out of Focused Rage, and set about trying to find a heroic or raid to run.

Eventually I got into an OS10 with a bunch of 80 premades - the difference from tanking it on live was so astonishing that I had to come post here. I'm talking *worlds* apart, guys.. 5 rage on avoidance/mitigation sounds like a pretty simple thing but the difference it made in my dps and threat was kind of frightening. I did more dps (by far) in OS10 than I do in 25 man runs, in some AE pulls I was pushing 2800+ and on single targets I was at 2-2.1k. I finished the run at just under 2200 dps and let me tell you.. I've never finished a 10man raid at 2190 dps on my warrior, lol. I had massive amounts of rage and Devastate - using one of the 1H maces from UD - was dealing some downright respectable damage (hitting harder than HS at 5 sunders!). Thanks to the block changes, I was seeing pretty substantial gains in shield slam as well. When I came back to live, I wanted to cry!

All I can say is, I felt like a walking wall in that run. Just a staggering difference. I do think the buff will be nerfed before it goes live (either less rage or less% to get it) but even if it is, the effect it will have on our tanking will blow many, many minds. For all the cool/interesting stuff that 3.2 is bringing, and that was on the PTR, this 1 OS run made me more excited to get the patch than any of it. I know we still have other problems - HS spam and iffy AE threat for example - but rage starvation while tanking will officially die in a fire come 3.2. Simply amazing stuff.

[Dragaan]

For tanking really easy content, I'm sure it's great. For the hard stuff? Who knows, we will never find out if paladin changes go live as-is. They will be tanking everything.

[Kaad]

Source: Dragaan For tanking really easy content, I'm sure it's great. For the hard stuff? Who knows, we will never find out if paladin changes go live as-is. They will be tanking everything.

unless you're unguilded... or your guild is like OMGWTF MIN MAX

i don't think that'll be the case at all.

I know i'll still be tanking, as will every tank in my guild (no active palis)

[Taaryn]

The pally changes don't concern me in the least. Don't know about you, but I organize and lead the raids I run on live.. so the day a paladin takes my spot is the day I ask one to. :P

And OS may be 'easy' but it was an excellent run to get a tangible in-game feel for our buffs. I say with confidence that rage from avoidance is indeed the next big thing for prot warriors. It redefines what we are capable of when we aren't taking massive amounts of damage. I cannot overstate this enough: playing my warrior on the PTR makes me hate playing her on live. Its that good.

[Dragaan]

Source: Kaad or your guild is like OMGWTF MIN MAX

yes

Well, no not really. But I would gladly step down to let a paladin tank any really hard-hitting bosses if their talents remain unchanged by the time 3.2 goes live. I definitely don't feel that way currently with DK tanks, even tho it seems tons of other non-DKs seemed to have given up. But these new pally talents are just retarded. If you did IC hardmode or Vezax or any other hard fight like that, you would realize how silly these "hard' encounters would become with 3.2 paladins tanking them.

[Dragaan]

Source: Taaryn It redefines what we are capable of when we aren't taking massive amounts of damage.

Yes, this is why I mentioned the hard fights (where we are constantly taking massive hits). What good is rage on avoidance on a fight like IC hard or algalon?

[minrog]

That sounds like welcome news to me. It's been a pretty bad 6 or 7 months in wotlk so I'm excited about the changes.

Replacing tanks on a whim isn't like replacing a DPS player. If you are looking to replace a tank who has, say, been tanking for your guild for 3 or so years your raid is going to be nervous and uncertain in your runs. That isn't to say the tank who happens to be at their nadir won't get asked to swap out for certain fights but sacking them completely? I don't think so, even in a min max guild.

If the guild is brand new and they picked a Death Knight tank last November they might think about switching it up due to game changes. After a year or two though you don't want to be doing raid impacting roster changes very often. Conservative is the word I would apply to these top ranked guilds.

The other thing to think about is that these nerfs and buffs come with inertia. The perception (true or not) is that Warriors are broken and DK's are OP. That swing is impacting the way they change the code and it is looking like the DK's are going to be the worst tanks sometime in the future. Maybe 6 months, maybe a year. I hope the guilds don't summarily boot them out when they are because it will pendulum back up eventually.

Here's hoping they give us some rage to work with hehe.

[Taaryn]

Source: Dragaan Yes, this is why I mentioned the hard fights (where we are constantly taking massive hits). What good is rage on avoidance on a fight like IC hard or algalon?

With all due respect, I think you are very largely missing the point.

Currently on live warriors face 2 tanking scenarios: The first and less frequent is the Unlimited Rage Scenario, where we get hit often and for massive amounts of damage (even when we block) and basically are at unlimited rage until death or until we loot.

The far more likely scenario is Rage starvation. As we gear more and craft high-end BSing pieces like Spiked Deathdealers, we go into heroics and less intense raids and basically suck it up (at least compared to our raiding performances) on account of taking so much less damage. The hits are not as hard and we parry/dodge so many attacks that we are sitting there waiting for enough rage to do, well, anything. Our dps is lower, our threat is much lower.

The 3.2 Shield Specialization change was meant for the latter. It was meant to put an end to rage starvation on account of the warrior actually being geared, and therefore taking less damage than in, say, Ulduar. Its not uncommon for a warrior to have a 'lucky' avoidance streak even in progression stuff and just sit there with next to no rage. So while this buff is mainly for situations where the warrior simply outgears what she or he is doing, it will also help in situations like long streaks of avoidance in harder stuff too. There is absolutely *no* bad in this change. Its amazing at best, and helpful at worst. Its downright stupid that a warrior is forced to do things like tank in dps gear or without pants (literally) in order to have adequate rage.

If you are in a guild or situation where you are a good tank but are going to get kicked to the curb for whatever the FOTM tank is come 3.2, I suggest you consider relocating. Paladins may be getting buffs but make no mistake about it.. rage gains from avoidance is about as amazing a buff as a tank can get without something ridiculous or gamebreaking. In just one PTR raid I saw a monumental difference. Yeah, maybe it was an 'easymode' raid but that was a great scenario to see the change because frankly I don't normally take just a lot of damage in OS. And yet my dps, threat, and rage gen. were all superior to what I typically do in UD10 - where I take far more damage in most fights. I for one enjoy helping out with guild heroics and raids (even when I am done with them on a gearing level) and this change will ensure I am every bit the tank in those places as I am in the ones where something is routinely punching me for 20k damage.

[Karlhungus]

I'm hoping this is exactly what Blizzard intended. As much as a problem rage starvation is on Ulduar bosses, running through any pre-3.1 content is even worse, to the point where I can barely hold aggro in 5 man content. Now, 5 rage on dodge probably isn't going to make a huge difference when tanking Vezax, but if it makes easier content easier instead of a struggle for warriors, then that's fantastic.

I'm really looking forward to seeing this go live.

[swelt]

Agree with most of what Taaryn said, but would say that the change addresses a 3rd situation: at the point of engaging a boss (a hard hitting one that you expect full rage bar from) you get a 'lucky' early string of dodges/parries and as a result have no rage coming in at a critical point of the fight when you need to be pushing threat.

I am pretty disappointed that a thread that started off welcoming the buffs to the warrior class so quickly turned into a "grass is greener" thread about other classes. Do we really need all threads to be about that now?

[Taaryn]

Source: Karlhungus I'm hoping this is exactly what Blizzard intended. As much as a problem rage starvation is on Ulduar bosses, running through any pre-3.1 content is even worse, to the point where I can barely hold aggro in 5 man content. Now, 5 rage on dodge probably isn't going to make a huge difference when tanking Vezax, but if it makes easier content easier instead of a struggle for warriors, then that's fantastic. I'm really looking forward to seeing this go live.

Its 5 rage on parry, block and dodges.. your bar fills up fast!

[Taaryn]

Source: swelt Agree with most of what Taaryn said, but would say that the change addresses a 3rd situation: at the point of engaging a boss (a hard hitting one that you expect full rage bar from) you get a 'lucky' early string of dodges/parries and as a result have no rage coming in at a critical point of the fight when you need to be pushing threat. I am pretty disappointed that a thread that started off welcoming the buffs to the warrior class so quickly turned into a "grass is greener" thread about other classes. Do we really need all threads to be about that now?

I am undeterred

This is an amazing change for us and my raid spot is safe until the day I choose not for it to be, so its a win win for me regardless of what happens with whoever else.

I'm just hoping we get some AE-threat love before all is said and done, that's probably my greatest single irritation aside from rage issues. Fortunately 3.2 looks to be the end of the latter so either way, its a great patch for us.

[Gnurken]

How is pally tanking changed in 3.2 to make them totally imba ? Don't see much in the patch notes

[Dizzy]

Source: Gnurken How is pally tanking changed in 3.2 to make them totally imba ? Don't see much in the patch notes

Ardent Defender:
Redesigned. Any damage that takes the paladin below 35% health or below is reduced. This reduction applies only to the portion that pushes the paladin below 35% health (example: a paladin at 50% health takes a 40% hit; the first 15% hits as normal while the next 25% is reduced). In addition, once every 2 minutes an attack that would have killed the paladin will fail to kill, and instead set the paladin's health to 10/20/30% of maximum.

[Gnurken]

Well I saw that one, but with a 2min cooldown it hardly makes Pally imba against lets say Steelbreaker, 2nd pulse-hit would kill anyway. Also spells with internal cooldowns are much harder to track than the active use of shield wall and last stand.

[Vizarde]

Good to see the buff to warriors. Now can I has tank Emalon and they get adds?!

[Honorshammer]

Source: Gnurken How is pally tanking changed in 3.2 to make them totally imba ? Don't see much in the patch notes

I think the OP greatly overestimates the buffs to Paladin tanks in the Patch Notes.

Ghostcrawler posted that AD is bugged on the PTR. It's making Paladins look much better than if it were working properly.

[Honorshammer]

Source: Vizarde Good to see the buff to warriors. Now can I has tank Emalon and they get adds?!

Even on Live, a Warrior is fine for either job. I've killed Emalon with a warrior tanking the boss or the adds.

Now that I think about it, with Rage on Avoidance, you might be better with Adds since 4 swings at your instead of one would give you even more rage.

[hola_adios]

Source: Vizarde Good to see the buff to warriors. Now can I has tank Emalon and they get adds?!

Silly to generalise, I do always tank the adds, in 10 and in 25. So ....

[veneretio]

Source: Vizarde Good to see the buff to warriors. Now can I has tank Emalon and they get adds?!

The Adds are the harder job anyway. Emalon is just tank and spank.