[aramirloth]

Even on avoidance streaks this won't help you much, say you parry/dodge Vezax 3 times in a row that's still just 15rage, not a big difference if you ask me. This is basicly only usefull on realy fast hitting bosses(don't know any of those where rage is an issue) or trash.

So as i said before this is a nice little buff to a talent but not fixing any real issue and not adressing our main issue which is survivability where warriors inferior to all the other tanking classes.
First fix our survivability then our threat output which is also a bit low compared to the other classes.

[Regill]

Source: aramirloth Even on avoidance streaks this won't help you much, say you parry/dodge Vezax 3 times in a row that's still just 15rage, not a big difference if you ask me. This is basicly only usefull on realy fast hitting bosses(don't know any of those where rage is an issue) or trash. So as i said before this is a nice little buff to a talent but not fixing any real issue and not adressing our main issue which is survivability where warriors inferior to all the other tanking classes. First fix our survivability then our threat output which is also a bit low compared to the other classes.

For slow hitting bosses, like vezax, avoidance streaks can really cripple your threat, happens to me all the time. I've even had to start using threat gear to tank Vezax.

As for fast attack speed bosses, well the only one that comes to mind is algalon, he dual wields too. 1.0 attack speed I believe. Oh, he's hit capped too, and never misses.

Just trust me on this... you do not rage starve on algalon. Hell your rage meter rarely goes too far from 100. Now your health bar on the other hand is a roller coaster ride from hell.

[Maelstrom]

Warriors aren't alone with resource issues on Vezax, if I get an avoidance streak I tend to run out of mana for a few seconds, so I drop consecration for a while and hope he lands a solid hit. It's probably not quite as spikey as current rage on Vezax, but you're not alone

[Szentia]

Do you think it would be worth dropping Impale & Deep Wounds for 5/5 Cruelty and Imp Disciplines?
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft for example
I can't really see dropping Imp Charge being an issue as I pull using Heroic Throw just as often, if not more.

[Regill]

Source: Szentia Do you think it would be worth dropping Impale & Deep Wounds for 5/5 Cruelty and Imp Disciplines? Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft for example I can't really see dropping Imp Charge being an issue as I pull using Heroic Throw just as often, if not more.

More and more I consider impale / deep wounds to be a crutch you really don't need for progression raiding. I respec'd 5.15.51 for algalon, then stayed with it through a normal ulduar clear. While my threat was noticeably lower, all that meant was that the dpsers actually had to use their threat clears. With impale / dw they were completely disregarding threat concerns. It's not like using one gcd on a threat clear is going to ruin their dps. The dps loss on my personal dps simply isn't enough to cause berserk timer concerns.

Even on Hodir and Vezax, both in hard mode, I was able to generate 'enough' threat. Those are the most threat sensitive fights currently in game. This is with top notch dps in best in slot gear.

Also look at what else you take in arms. Imp charge? You don't need it, if your hunters and rogues MD / tricks you, and you do it right, your initial threat is downright absurd. Imp heroic strike? On Hard modes you don't need the rage cost reduction much, since your rage bar fills to 100 on every successful hit. Sure you might rage starve a bit faster on an avoidance streak, but what counts is final threat output, which is sufficient.

Only going 5 pts into arms really makes sense to me, freeing up pts for valuable mitigation and survival talents in the fury and prot trees.

[kolben]

Source: veneretio The Adds are the harder job anyway. Emalon is just tank and spank.

That is true of most fights in this game, not all of course.


As for the changes, some improvement will be great. I still feel like the comparisons are pretty academic. Yes, Warriors are behind in most categories - and the changes in 3.2 don't sound like they will change that much. Warriors can tank anything in the game, it's just a fact. I realize some of you play with tools who read forums all day and have nothing better to do than blindly follow the latest min/max hyperbole spewed on popular web sites but that's not necessary to beat the encounters - and right now any tank will do. You're guild or raid group most likely has many other problems preventing you from completing content that aren't tank related. I hate to say it, but the main tank is not the make or break position it once was. It simply does not matter like it used to, the onus is on everyone else to get it right - tanking remains pretty damn easy no matter who is doing it.

[Tanksforus]

i find that without dw spec, our threat is way below other tanks. and doing hard modes dw + impale helps a lot getting to the 6ktps +.

If they moved impale up on tree a bit, i would take it and skip dw.

[Griff]

As a thought experiment, try this: Imagine a dps in your guild on hardmode Hodir saying 'Well, I could spec into something that would up my damage, but me doing optimal dps is a crutch. The healers could be spamming harder than they are so I'm not going to bother. The drop in my personal dps contribution to the fight probably isn't going to make a difference."

I know in my guild, that dps would be sitting on the bench.

Source: Regill More and more I consider impale / deep wounds to be a crutch you really don't need for progression raiding. I respec'd 5.15.51 for algalon, then stayed with it through a normal ulduar clear. While my threat was noticeably lower, all that meant was that the dpsers actually had to use their threat clears. With impale / dw they were completely disregarding threat concerns. It's not like using one gcd on a threat clear is going to ruin their dps. The dps loss on my personal dps simply isn't enough to cause berserk timer concerns.

[sicness]

Source: Regill More and more I consider impale / deep wounds to be a crutch you really don't need for progression raiding. I respec'd 5.15.51 for algalon, then stayed with it through a normal ulduar clear. While my threat was noticeably lower, all that meant was that the dpsers actually had to use their threat clears. With impale / dw they were completely disregarding threat concerns. It's not like using one gcd on a threat clear is going to ruin their dps. The dps loss on my personal dps simply isn't enough to cause berserk timer concerns. Even on Hodir and Vezax, both in hard mode, I was able to generate 'enough' threat. Those are the most threat sensitive fights currently in game. This is with top notch dps in best in slot gear. Also look at what else you take in arms. Imp charge? You don't need it, if your hunters and rogues MD / tricks you, and you do it right, your initial threat is downright absurd. Imp heroic strike? On Hard modes you don't need the rage cost reduction much, since your rage bar fills to 100 on every successful hit. Sure you might rage starve a bit faster on an avoidance streak, but what counts is final threat output, which is sufficient. Only going 5 pts into arms really makes sense to me, freeing up pts for valuable mitigation and survival talents in the fury and prot trees.

I can somewhat agree with you, however all players get to a point where their gear covers their survivability enough to the point where they can lose talents that normally make up for it. With that, there's no reason not to pick up additional threat talents since obviously the extra survivability isn't as necessary. I've seen more and more warrior tanks start to go back to 15/5/51 (or some variation) because their survivability isn't as big of an issue now and their trying to maximize their threat.

And honestly, I wouldn't call it a crutch, it's simply maximizing your threat potential, which all tanks should concern themselves with. Whether or not you need that extra threat is arguable, however not maximizing yourself for threat is the same as not maximizing yourself for survivability.

Lastly, while your dps can use threat reduction abilities, requiring them to hinders their dps and only proves that you should be trying to increase your threat however you can.

[Regill]

Source: sicness I can somewhat agree with you, however all players get to a point where their gear covers their survivability enough to the point where they can lose talents that normally make up for it. With that, there's no reason not to pick up additional threat talents since obviously the extra survivability isn't as necessary. I've seen more and more warrior tanks start to go back to 15/5/51 (or some variation) because their survivability isn't as big of an issue now and their trying to maximize their threat. And honestly, I wouldn't call it a crutch, it's simply maximizing your threat potential, which all tanks should concern themselves with. Whether or not you need that extra threat is arguable, however not maximizing yourself for threat is the same as not maximizing yourself for survivability. Lastly, while your dps can use threat reduction abilities, requiring them to hinders their dps and only proves that you should be trying to increase your threat however you can.

Well if a tank is in the situation of no longer needing survivability then specing impale / dw makes sense, but more for the damage than the threat. Thing is, if your at the point where your not worried about survival, then you should progress on to harder content. It's not like a lot of tanks have algalon 25 down and are done with ulduar content.

Like I said, extra threat beyond enough to hold the boss isn't useful. Extra damage would be useful, but more survivability is almost always more useful. Most guilds tend to start bringing fewer and fewer healers as content gets more on farm status.

After all, if you die, its a wipe. If your threat is a tad low... its not a wipe, just dps is down slightly.

And there is always the option of swapping a few pieces of gear around for threat, you don't have to switch talents to get more threat.

[GROGtheNailer]

You will want to make sure you are not holding back the dps at all at any time. The quicker u get a boss down the less things go worng. Ive been in a no rage situation countless times with a full progression build and it sucks. I go back and forth but it does drve me nuts to be rage starved for a period of time.

[sicness]

Source: Regill Well if a tank is in the situation of no longer needing survivability then specing impale / dw makes sense, but more for the damage than the threat. Thing is, if your at the point where your not worried about survival, then you should progress on to harder content. It's not like a lot of tanks have algalon 25 down and are done with ulduar content. Like I said, extra threat beyond enough to hold the boss isn't useful. Extra damage would be useful, but more survivability is almost always more useful. Most guilds tend to start bringing fewer and fewer healers as content gets more on farm status. After all, if you die, its a wipe. If your threat is a tad low... its not a wipe, just dps is down slightly. And there is always the option of swapping a few pieces of gear around for threat, you don't have to switch talents to get more threat.

There's not always room to progress once your at max survival via gear though. And it's not like the hard modes and Algalon drop that much better loot to the point where you'll have so much more survival compared to doing normal modes anyways.

It's just like Naxx, once you've gotten pretty much all the gear you need from it and your survivability is not as much of a factor then threat should be more focused on, with gear and with talents. And yes you can swap gear for threat instead of picking up talents, but why not do both and optimize yourself for the situation your raid is in. I recall losing around 2k-3k hp in my threat gear at post-Naxx level, but was hit and hard expertise capped with about 400 more attack power, that is a significant threat boost.

Extra threat beyond what you need to hold the boss is not needed, as you said, but dps will always be pushing your threat and if you're surviving encounters perfectly fine in threat specs then why not help the dps push you further, it only improves them as well. I don't care who you are and what gear you have, dps will always find times to push your threat, and that is what they and you should be working on to achieve together because that makes your raid as a whole better.

Going back to your previous post you were claiming that more points in Arms was a crutch, it's not and that's what my arguments were against. Simply because you get to the point where you can spend more talents on threat over survival isn't a bad thing, it's part of progression, and shouldn't be looked down upon. Especially when you consider how much threat you gain from Impale and Deep Wounds it's really not an argument as to whether or not you should pick it up if you're pushing for max threat.

Obviously you shouldn't risk so much of your survival to where it makes you wipe more often than you should. However, once you get to the point where you have your survival gear it doesn't just stop there until the next patch is released. You should be maximizing yourself in survival and threat for encounters because dps will always, always find a way to push your threat. This allows you to be more prepared in future encounters as it gives you the ability to not only have a max survivability spec/gear but max threat as well, which is just as important.

[Takyno]

Source: Kerg So let's look at what you'd be gaining by filling it out to 5/5. A cost of 3 talent points. I run with about 45% Dodge & Parry and about 13% Block. So this will proc about 58% of the time a boss swings at me. If the boss' swing timer is 2.0 sec., those 3 extra pts. in the talent will yield me an average of 3*.58= 1.74 rage per boss swing. 30 swings per min. = about +52 rage per minute. Focused Rage reduces the cost of Shield Slam, Revenge, Devastate, and Heroic Strike by 3. Say I am HSing every swing with a 1.6 speed weapon, and hitting Shield Slam, Revenge or Devastate every 1.5 sec. global cooldown. Focused Rage, in a high rage environment that allows 100% HS spam every swing, would save me (60/1.6)*3 + (60/1.5)*3 = about +233 rage per minute. Even in a medium rage environment where you are only HSing half your swings, you're looking at about +176 rage per minute. Or a low rage environment where you're not even HSing at all... Focused Rage nets you +120 rage per minute. Focused Rage blows 3/5 Shield Specialization out of the water in all scenarios.

While this might mathematically be absolutely right and legit, the problem is, like most times people compare more-or-less useful talents with oneanother, you all are comparing to totally different types of talents. While both talents are meant to help with protection warriors rage they do the EXACT opposite of each other:

One actually gives you more rage, one makes you abilities cost more rage. So basically, while over a certain course of time focused rage will mathematically give you more rage than the new shield specc, it will infact never give you any.

I am not saying either one is better or worse, as i just came back to wow as a tank and have no rage problems in the environments i am tanking currently, but you cannot compare these two talents mathematically.

Besides: You finishing sentence is focussed rage blows shield specc out of the water in all scenarios, which simply is not true. How much rage does FR net you when you dodge compared to how much Shield Specc does? How much when you block or parry?

[Tanksforus]

how about an ability far down the prot tree, one talented "u know gain 200% more rage from damage u deal. " or something to that scale

[Nidhoggr]

Source: Taaryn Easy. Focused Rage. 3 points to reduce rage cost is kind of needless considering the massive increase Shield Spec grants. I specced out of it on the PTR and just had an incredibly steady supply. I went into Stockades and body aggroed 7 or 8 mobs and was at 100 rage in seconds

Sure about that ?
May work at thrash mobs with many hits, but on a boss ? We use two special attacks in 1.5 seconds, which means focused rage will reduce our rage cost by 6 in 1.5 seconds.

Shieldspecc will give us 5 rage on Block, Parry, Dodge, which should be around 65% at the moment, but most bosses doesn't hit every 1.5 seconds.
This is only a rude calculation, but I believe passing focused rage will be contraproductive.

[Thad]

i mean in my survival spec i do just a little less threat than in my DW spec its not really a big deal. it seems to me once you get alot of gear and your avoidance and survivability it way up there its more beneficial to tank with a UA spec for threat since it does boost your dps depending on the boss and as others have said the faster you down the boss the better.

[swelt]

Source: Regill Like I said, extra threat beyond enough to hold the boss isn't useful. Extra damage would be useful, but more survivability is almost always more useful. Most guilds tend to start bringing fewer and fewer healers as content gets more on farm status.

Let's expand that point a bit:
- raid A isn't worried about survival so the tank gears and specs for extra damage. They gain a few hundred dps.
- raid B isn't worried about survival so the tank stays specced for max survival and they drop a healer for a pure dps class. They gain a few thousand dps.

I'm sure it's not quite that simple. If you sacrifice personal threat on the assumption of tricks + misdirects, you need to factor that those things have a cost (albeit fairly small, it all adds up). But I do think there is a strong case for survival specs.

[Dragaan]

People keep bringing up Vezax and saying how they get rage-starved. Try tanking him with 0/3 focused rage (with the 3 points moved over to shield spec). Let's see how ur rage/threat is then :O

[Nidhoggr]

We already calculated this and it's very easy: You will have less rage.
Vezax hit's very slow, so after three dodges/parries in a row, you will just earn 15 Rage in ~9 Seconds through shield specc (assuming he hits once every 3 seconds, not sure about this), but you lose ~36 Rage (6* 2 Skills) by not having focussed rage skilled.

So I don't know why you bring vezax as an example, because the slower you got hit, the less is shield specc worth the points.

[Kerg]

Good points, Takyno and Nidhoggr.

You're right Tak in that when you hit zero rage and don't have enough for the next Shield Slam, Focused Rage is not going to do you any good, but the new SS will.

But as Nid points out, Focused Rage helps slow your decent to zero.

Normally we are operating between 50 and 100 rage. Spinning our cooldowns and spamming Heroic Strike. Say we're at 80 rage when the avoidance streak starts. Shield Slam (15), HS (15), Revenge (5), HS (15), Devastate (15), HS (15)... without Focused Rage, we're at zero now and rage-starved waiting on rage to come in, threat abilities cease.

But with Focused Rage, during that avoidance streak, we've saved 18 rage, and thus have enough for a 17 rage Shield Slam, and buying us another 1.5 sec. of continued threat generation.

But if we don't have Focused Rage, but 5/5 SS instead, say we've avoided 2 hits... we've gained only 6 rage due to the extra 3 pts. in SS.

Now that is an oversimplified example, but the point is valid. Focused Rage slows our decent to zero during an avoidance streak, and may keep us from actually getting into that rage-starved situation in the first place. Without Focused Rage, you will get into rage starved situations more often.

So I still say no freakin' way you trade 3 pts. from Focused Rage for 3 pts. in SS. At least for high rage boss tanking situations.