[Avatarian]

Source: Kamani You are over analyzing. Vigilance will always be best off on the person who is generating the most threat. Yea a prot warrior with DPS gear on can do ridiculous threat, but he will be capped by the main tank if he stands in defensive stance, thus making him slow down and stop attacking. You could have a prot warrior intentionally stay at the 109% threshold, but that could be dangerous on any non tank and spank fight.

Sorry to bash all you monkeys that seem to only read half of the tooltip...."Reducing their damage taken by 3%"

to the guy that was talking about mt vig ot and vice versa, you got 2 things, a) the mt now is only losing a fraction of that 10%, and b) 3% more damage mid...so if you got a fight like any of the fist full that exsist in TBC, where the boss does a hatefull to 2nd threat(sometimes overall sometimes to just melee)

putting the vig on the ot and the ot to the mt, would be mutually benfitial, the mt might lose 2-3% threat gen, the OT will for sure be on the top of the melee threat, and both with have an extra 3% damage reduct.

People should try and figure out why someone like Archfiend is asking such questions about the tanks putting vig on each other before bashing them.

It makes me cry that people would even suggest not getting this, i would kill for this right now. the taunt refresh and the 3% damage mid is what is important imo, the threat drain is just icing on the cake. when i first saw a draw up for this talent it gave 5% dodge raw threat loss, now that the threat isnt lost, you can just transfer it between tanks, etc to keep someone other than dps 2nd on aggro

Personally, for 90% of the fights that i am in, i will prolly have the ot vig the mt, and the mt vig the highest tps. Mt doesnt loose much theat if any, maybe even gets 2-3% more from the dps than is getting drained (all depends on the raw numbers that the dps and the mt are generating), mt gets 3% damage reduc, and OT has a better chance of being 2nd on aggro just in case of those "oh shit i forgot to heal the mt" moments that healers seem to have from time to time, now its not a guarenteed wipe, because ot is already there.

[Glomgore]

To throw my 2cp in.

As one who does main OTing, for my raids, I know for a fact, that I can put out more TPS even as an OT than my DPS, due to solid rotation and bonus splash damage, with an even bigger jump on fights like gruul/curator due to bonus rage.

If the MT put's vigilance on me, he gets 10% more threat.

This is tricky, really. I keep typing something, and then deleting it as my logic works.

If a DPS is higher than me on threat list, that's means he's pushing more TPS. I dunno. I'ma have to think about this A LOT I think. This really may be one of the most complicated things Blizz has put our tanking minds too.

[Enkinu]

Source: Avatarian Personally, for 90% of the fights that i am in, i will prolly have the ot vig the mt, and the mt vig the highest tps.

It's what I wrote in my first post here: everybody seemed to overlook the situation when OT uses Vigilance on MT, and I wasn't sure if it works as I understood it does.

Vigilance is great in dungeons tanking, raid MT and raid OT - each bonus component has different purpose.

Tanking Dungeons: Mitigation bonus doesn't change much - most healers and DPS are easily two-shooted by heroic mobs, and 3% won't save their lives for a long. Yet Threat transfer can be nice, especially in bosse fights. But what really shines is the Taunt reset - clever use can give you a 100% chance your Taunt will be ready when needed! Here are sample situations: AoE packs can be taunted one by one, you can taunt CCed mobs after traps fail, etc. Those stressful situations are pretty common right now and Vigilance will make them piece of cake!

Main Tanking Raids: It's obvious - MT uses Vigilance on the best DPS (let's say a warlock )... As a result it will relatively reduce DPS threat by about 18% and increase MT threat by more than 10% (assuming ranged DPS can stay close to or above of aggro pull value) It's so good, that I can imagine 25-man raids with one DPS member will on purpose skip threat reduction talents to boost Tank TPS! Taunt cooldown reset and extra mitigation bonus can probably slightly help in some circumstances, but are otherwise useless.

Off Tanking Raids: OT uses Vigilance on MT - in my opinion it's the most powerful use of the ability and will make warriors eventually the most desirable offtanks in some fights. First of all a 3% mitigation bonus for a MT makes a huge difference - it takes many gear upgrades to achieve similar effect. Additionally possible endless Taunt makes adds handling (e.g. Hydross spawns) piece of cake. Actually you DON'T need to build any threat to keep them on aggro - as it resets almost instantly (assuming MT gets hit) you can use it again, before the taunt debuff ends. Finally, 10% threat transfer can help OT to catch up MT on a boss hate list, making him next possible target when sometimes goes wrong. In multiple MT fights (like o' Kurinaxx, and there are similar in Naxx - but non-tauntable) it would put warriors much ahead of other tanks!

Special situations: I am sure that this ability can be used in many situations, as it is extremely flexible and doesn't have almost any conditions/cost right now. A clever use can grant a warrior unlimited taunt, extra threat and save someone's life. And if you can Vigilante pets, it'd be pure imba unlimited taunt source.

IMHO This ability is simply too good to be true... And I'm really afraid Blizz will nerf it really fast, as it puts warriors ahead of other tanks.

Enkinu

[Bayho]

Does anyone know if this talent is going to be needed with the way mechanics are changing? I definitely was not going to get it before, but I wonder if the threat siphon will really make it worthwhile.

[Krashtork]

Q: If you have the MT and OT trade Vigilances, would it mean they simply trade threat?

I.E. (Say the MT generates 1000 threat per second, 900 of it remains, 100 of it goes to the OT. Is that 100 considered generated threat by the OT? If so, of that 100, 90 of it would remain with the OT, and the MT would get 10 of it back.)

If this is the case, then Vigilance is only a 9% threat reduction on the MT.

Further, say the OT generates 500 threat per second at the same time as the MT is generating 1000. He keeps 450, and the MT gets 50.

So now the MT is generating 950-960 TPS. If this is true, then we are looking at a mear 4-5% threat reduction in exchange for 3% dmg mitigation.

If the OT were able to do 800 TPS, 80 of that would be going to the MT, so then we are looking a measly 2% threat reduction for a 3% mitigation bonus.

This talent kicks. I will be picking it up for sure.

[Krashtork]

Any thoughts on my last response? I don't mean to double post but I would love to hear anything thoughts on if what I suggested above would work.

[ElfTheHunter]

My guess is that threat gained from vigiliance might not be considered threat generated - but it could. Anyway, I'll definently be picking up this ability... it sounds incredibly flexible, and anything that flexible can if used right, be incredibly powerful. And hey, if they nerf it, they'll prolly give us a respec (and then I might trade it up for somethign else).

[Avatarian]

I can almost guarentee that it takes off of base threat, and not additive, ie like kings and vitiality, the amount str you get from vitality doesnt increase when you get kings even though it gives you more str, or vice versa. Willing to bet 1000g that it works the same with the threat, the threat generated from vigi is added on after all other threat drains and reductions are taken.

[Nuke]

Think about the possibility though of endless threat in some cases where taunt could be applied. I know in most cases bosses are immune to taunt. But if both tanks place vigilance on each other then can effectively eliminate threat by constantly taunting off one another. Healing might be harder but with a Beacon of Light paladins could keep both tanks alive.

[Krashtork]

Find me a boss that threat is an issue and is tauntable and I will give you...2 kudos.

[Dygrav]

Source: Krashtork Find me a boss that threat is an issue and is tauntable and I will give you...2 kudos.

Brutallus says hi

[mero12513]

Bear in ZA and Brutallus are both tauntable. Threat could easily be an issue in those fights as (to my knowledge) is possible for DPS to go "all out" without anything else going on to them. Of course, this depends on the tank and dps.

[Krashtork]

Dy and Mero get a kudo a peice :P

<--- it's early here, cut me some slack lol

[Nuke]

Wheres mine for suggesting it

[Synapse]

Source: Dygrav Brutallus says hi

Holy shield also says hi

But yeah, that o.o

Another tauntable boss where threat is an issue is Essence of Anger.

[Tussle]

Excuse the repost, but I put this in a different Vigilance thread, and would also appreciate at least one other viewpoint on it.

One very niche application of Vigilance would be in certain AOE fights.

Say we have a mage that has been buffed by the warrior beforehand with Vigilance. Let's say it's a fire/arcane mage, specced into instant Invisibility. A large quantity of mobs is gathered, or approaches in an AOE-friendly formation. The mage unloads, using blastwave, instant flamestrike, dragon's breath, instant flamestrike, then instant invisibility. 10% of the fairly high threat they generated would have been transferred to the warrior throughout, and that threat is not dropped, so the tank becomes the possessor of primary aggro. Could also work with Paladin+bubble or Hunter+feign. It's possible that through clever use of Ice Block, mobs could be kept in limbo - running first at the mage AOEing, then to the tank when Ice Block is used, then back at the Mage when it is canceled, etc.

This would mainly be useful if Thunderclap/Shockwave/Damage Shield are not performing as desired for overall threat retention, or if there is some other functionality at work such as the tank's focus being required in multiple places. Tidewalker stuff, I guess. Certainly not a generally useful concept but at least a hidden functionality.

[Ohm]

This thread makes my head hurt ... lol

Anyhoo, as soon as i saw this talent 1 strat for raids sprang to mind instantly. For it to work, MT & OT both need Vigilance. Okay, everyone has a guildie that's a little psycho (yes im mostly looking at the locks here) and DPS's like crazy. They're hard to restrain, and you don't really want to cause they're damn good at melting faces.

Enter Vigilance >> make the poor bastard happy tell them to go buck wild the whole raid.
MT makes face melter the target of their vigilance

OT makes MT target of their Vigilance.

MT is getting lots of threat on their own (as per usual cause we rawk) + 10% of face melter's threat. OT gets 10% of that boosted threat from MT and saves them 3% damage. As far as I can see The whole raid can go nuts and there will always be MT/OT in 1st and 2nd hate spots. If anyone does manage to pull off the MT (don't see how that could be possible but anyways...) The OT always has their taunt up from vigilance and can keep the mob stuck until the MT can take it back.

DPS is happy ... we're happy and our healrs even get a 3% reduction in incomming damage on us. Hmmm

[edit for spelling]

[Endure]

Source: Forklift 2. If DPS is at your heels, he's clearly #2 in threat. Thus, you want to take his threat, not your #3 OT's threat.

This is wrong. TPS is the only thing that matters, not placement on a threat meter. Moreso, rarely will it be just one DPS closing in.

Again, the focus here is on threat sensitive fights where threat is apart of the fight. Take something like Loatheb, where you might have a DPS going crazy and not getting a spore, or any fight where threat reduction is apart of the encounter (Wing Buffets, knockbacks, or heck, even old 4H).

Maybe it's just my experience alone, but rarely is it just 1 DPS that can ramp up, and knocking him down would only mean having another #2 to worry about.

Not enough people did BWL without Salv I guess. Though, with BlizzCon coming and going, blue all but said they didn't want Threat to be as big an issue. So I guess this is all moot anyways. Which, in truth, makes the threat meter now a virtual slap in the face.