[Jasra]

Source: Norrath Sigh. Yes, druids have strong versatility. This is not strictly a benefit, however. If you have one of each three tanking classes, yet only need two tanks during an encounter, which tank gets to sit out? The druid, because he has a useful ability when not tanking. How would you like getting told "Sorry, we can't afford to have you tanking, because the other two aren't performing as well as you when they're not tanking"? YES, it's an amazing strength. Druids pay for it and then some.

Consider the possibility that the glass is also half full as well. "Sorry, we already have our tanks - you can respec or better luck next week."

[Norrath]

Source: Jasra Consider the possibility that the glass is also half full as well. "Sorry, we already have our tanks - you can respec or better luck next week."

That can happen to ANY tank, regardless of class.

The only difference here is that Feral druids do not have to respec -- and druids give up plenty for that.

[Alent]

Source: Jasra Consider the possibility that the glass is also half full as well. "Sorry, we already have our tanks - you can respec or better luck next week."

I second Norrath. Being expected to go cat every boss fight is an embittering, frustrating experience. One that from your comment, I think you can identify with for entirely different reasons.

We just want to be an equal choice, and this "you can DPS" mantra is frustrating for ANY tank class, but since a druid doesn't have to port to Ironforge/undercity every time the raid wants the offtank to DPS, the duty falls to us. And we are bitter. To the point that a fair number of T6 feral druids are talking about rerolling plate tank in the expansion.

When your end game specialized offtank class wants to reroll warrior or paladin so they don't ever have to DPS ever again, you know there's a problem with your game.

[Shullbit]

Source: Alent When your end game specialized offtank class wants to reroll warrior or paladin so they don't ever have to DPS ever again, you know there's a problem with your game.

What?!?

Your QQ cause you don't want to DPS, yet rolled a class that can Melee DPS, Tank, Heal, or Range DPS.... and Tanking and DPS are acutally one spec?

I feel no pity for you. Warriors are either DPS or Tank... you can;t effectively do both these days. Gone are the days of Raid tanking as 31/5/15. So basically as a warrior if your not tanking or OT ... your doing horrible DPS as a prot spec.

Paladins are 2nd in this. If they are Prot, they are either tanking.. or contributing in very minor ways through their buffs.

Druids... if their not tanking they can do VERY good DPS. Heck they can even pop out of DPS and Invenerate or drop a couple HOTS on random people.

Complain all you want, but truth is you suckling from the golden spoon....

[uglybbtoo]

Dont roll a prot pally ... they will just make you heal anyhow ... remember pallys can't end game tank just ask any warrior

And I agree with shullbit stop complaining ...walk a mile in another shoe and see it from there side ...

[Norrath]

Source: Shullbit What?!? Your QQ cause you don't want to DPS, yet rolled a class that can Melee DPS, Tank, Heal, or Range DPS.... and Tanking and DPS are acutally one spec? I feel no pity for you. Warriors are either DPS or Tank... you can;t effectively do both these days. Gone are the days of Raid tanking as 31/5/15. So basically as a warrior if your not tanking or OT ... your doing horrible DPS as a prot spec. Paladins are 2nd in this. If they are Prot, they are either tanking.. or contributing in very minor ways through their buffs. Druids... if their not tanking they can do VERY good DPS. Heck they can even pop out of DPS and Invenerate or drop a couple HOTS on random people. Complain all you want, but truth is you suckling from the golden spoon....

Take it from people who've been there. You're not seeing the entire picture, and what you ARE seeing is discolored at best. Your insinuations are pretty damn insulting.

Try actually reading what we've been saying for a start instead of jumping at our throats.

[uglybbtoo]

Noone is insulting you it's just not any better being a pally or warrior in the same boat when 3 tanks have to become 2 or 1.

The obvious answer is vendor your dps gear then you cant dps However don't be surprised if you get subbed out.

There is no answer to this I have prot warrior and prot pally and when not tanking I pretend I am healing on pally and pretend I am dpsing on warrior because I suck at both. To be honest I actually usually jump on my mage and bring that in which is the other thing to do have a viable alt to sub.

All he was saying at least your viable and can still contribute to raid as a druid.

[Norrath]

Reread the posts.

I am well aware of how things stand. "Walk a mile in another's shoes", you said. Perhaps you should take those words to heart.

I have a warrior, and a paladin, and I've tanked raids on both. I also have tanked raids on my druid.

[uglybbtoo]

I did read ...

So you played all the classes you see the problem ... there is no fix?

If you REALLY REALLY want to tank refuse to do anything else but tank.

If you get called "selfish" however don't be offended what you are doing is not in the best interest of the raid.

Wait till we have DK's we all probably get sidelined ... knowing blizzard they will be OP to max.

Edit: Actually I thought about it solution is for blizz to make warrior and pally have viable dps in prot form now they can go dps and druid can tank ... wait now to make them not OP we would have to make them change form to lose all there armor when in dps form

[Norrath]

Source: uglybbtoo I did read ... So you played all the classes you see the problem ... there is no fix? If you REALLY REALLY want to tank refuse to do anything else but tank. If you get called "selfish" however don't be offended what you are doing is not in the best interest of the raid. Wait till we have DK's we all probably get sidelined ... knowing blizzard they will be OP to max.

Sigh.

Yes, the ability to switch fluidly from tank to DPS is strong. No one has ever disputed this.

The problem is two-fold. One, seeing as druids are the ONLY class with the ability to do this, they are FORCED to do this. If a fight requires only two tanks, and you have a paladin, a warrior, and a druid, the druid doesn't get to tank.

This happens every single time, for the good of the raid. It gets EXTREMELY frustrating.

The second problem is that druids actually GIVE UP things for this ability. Some of these warriors (and paladins, mind you) take for granted. Some of them are getting removed or changed in WotLK. Others are not -- such as parry and block.

[uglybbtoo]

Agreed frustrating but cant see any way to fix either ...

I edited in a little joke before you prob missed

Actually I thought about it solution is for blizz to make warrior and pally have viable dps in prot form now they can go dps and druid can tank ... wait now to make them not OP we would have to make them change form to lose all there armor when in dps form

But it underlines the problem I don't know how you fix this problem without taking from a druid it's uniqueness and what makes druid players like playing druids.

[Alent]

Source: Shullbit Your QQ cause you don't want to DPS, yet rolled a class that can Melee DPS, Tank, Heal, or Range DPS.... and Tanking and DPS are acutally one spec?

I'll be blunt here. I've been walking on eggshells here because I don't want to be insulting or spew "class lines", but I'm just as polarized on this point as you are emotionally. I'm doing my best to hold that emotion in. I request you do the same. Just remember what at old wrinkly goblin fury warrior used to say: "Emotions lead to the darkside, myess."

I'll let your attack slide since you have no idea what motivated me to pick druid as my class. It's really quite stupid when you think about it. Rather than doing my own research, I asked a friend what class I should pick if I want to tank. he said druid. So I rolled druid. I knew nothing about the game. I'd just bought it, I was staring at character create, I wanted to tank. that was it. I asked a friend and he gave me bad advice. I'm sure you've done the same at some point.

[Tenraiel]

Source: Shullbit I feel no pity for you. Warriors are either DPS or Tank... you can;t effectively do both these days. ... So basically as a warrior if your not tanking or OT ... your doing horrible DPS as a prot spec.

Um, ... my prot dps isn't "horrible." My devastate gear is decent (ZA-ish quality) and I have had druids forced into tanking because my dps is just better. Even before some recent upgrades I have done over 1.3k dps on bosses in hyjal. Not amazing ... but not horrible. IMO, the only advantage a druid has when considering potential for dps is that they can switch roles mid-fight.

[Klimpen]

Honestly, as someone who's looking at druids from the outside, there's no reason why I would go out of my way to roll and play one, as a tank.

There are two major points to this, one of which has been stated quite clearly.

1/ They're a tanking class that doesn't get to tank. Seriously. As a tank I want to tank. Not DPS. While I'm usually willing to throw on some healing gear or DPS gear as the raid requires, I'm not willing to do it every. Single. Time.

2/ Their strengths over Paladins/Warriors are not pronounced as the reverse. Not even near, as I've seen. Warriors/Paladins can get near as much armor, plus more avoidance, plus Block.

Now, not to say that they're not-viable for 'tanking stuff', it's just imo, they're the weakest of the three tanks as tanks. Kudos to my bear friends with putting up with the long-hard road and hope you get buffed in WotLK like you deserve.

[Alent]

Source: Tenraiel Um, ... my prot dps isn't "horrible." My devastate gear is decent (ZA-ish quality) and I have had druids forced into tanking because my dps is just better. Even before some recent upgrades I have done over 1.3k dps on bosses in hyjal. Not amazing ... but not horrible. IMO, the only advantage a druid has when considering potential for dps is that they can switch roles mid-fight.

If you do 1300 dps, you do 200 more dps than I do in lolstacked melee with my best dps gear. Hats off.

[uglybbtoo]

Getting way to serious have a laugh ... old image before us hybrids could really tank

[Tenraiel]

Source: Alent If you do 1300 dps, you do 200 more dps than I do in lolstacked melee with my best dps gear. Hats off.

I've spent time collecting, enchanting and gem'ing my dps gear (unlike most tanks /facepalm) and it was a stacked group. Also, I don't average 1.3k, I hang around 1k-1.1k just that some fights allow me to stick to a target longer and flex the epeen. I LOVE seeing people's reaction when they get out dps'd by a prot warrior. I'll tell ya, nothing shames lazy dps into performing better than pointing out that their MT is doing better, lol.

[Tenraiel]

Also, uglybbtoo, you're my hero - that's hilarious!

[Jasra]

Source: Alent I second Norrath. Being expected to go cat every boss fight is an embittering, frustrating experience. One that from your comment, I think you can identify with for entirely different reasons.

Right, my point is that the glass is half full as well. Respec involves hassle (softened by today's SSO inflation to be sure), and of course you can't switch back if a tanking opportunity comes up without leaving 9-24 other people in the lurch. The result is that opportunities for current plate tanks tend to be more feast or famine. Feral splits that somewhere down the middle for better and for worse.

When your end game specialized offtank class wants to reroll warrior or paladin so they don't ever have to DPS ever again, you know there's a problem with your game.

Without intending any offense, I would consider this a problem of misaligned expectations rather than bad game design. In a class explicitly designed around flexibility, saying that you don't want that flexibility indicates that rerolling to something less flexible is a better solution.

If on the other hand, you like playing cat, but just don't want to be doing it 100% of the time, that suggests a political problem in your guild, but again, not a design problem. There are plenty of encounters where bears are useful if not superior, and losing a few cat dps isn't going to pose a problem unless your guild leadership is very closed-minded.

Anyway, based on Ghostcrawlers comments, this may turn into a moot point depending on how far feral sub-specialization will end up going in the next pass.

[Norrath]

Source: Jasra Anyway, based on Ghostcrawlers comments, this may turn into a moot point depending on how far feral sub-specialization will end up going in the next pass.

It won't totally go away, though -- even a "tank-focused" Feral will be more obvious and attractive as DPS than a Protection warrior -- even though, as Tenraiel points out, Protection warriors CAN DPS. Devastate really changed a lot in that area.

At the moment, we'll just have to wait and see.