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  #1  
Old 10-30-2007, 07:29 AM
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Tankin as Arms/Prot - Need Help

I am an arms warrior with some points in prot (Defiance, Shield Block, Last Stand)

I have few questions about arms/prot tanking. (I realize that tanking after 2.3 will be a bit different)

1) What is the best tanking rotation since I don’t have Shield Slam and Devastate?
2) Should I continue applying sunder armor after 5 sunders?
3) Is Improved Heroic Strike worth spending 3 points on, and when is it best used.


Thanks.
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  #2  
Old 10-30-2007, 07:36 AM
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Your rotation will be very similar to a Protection warrior's.

Revenge > Mortal Strike > Sunder Armor > Sunder Armor, Heroic Strike when rage > 50.

Sunders continue dealing threat after you've stacked 5, so don't change the rotation.

Improved Heroic Strike is worth spending the points in, yes.
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  #3  
Old 10-30-2007, 07:41 AM
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Yep, Norrath beat me to it. Make sure you are getting your revenges in as much as possible as well.
Yes, you should still be applying sunders after you reached the 5 cap. You won't have devastate to reset the timer on them so you will need to be doing it about every 20 seconds or have a dps warrior be doing it. The boss having less armor means you and every other melee will be hitting harder.
And Yes, impoved Heroic Strike is definitely worth it.
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  #4  
Old 10-30-2007, 07:42 AM
Angus Meat-shield
 
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I'd agree with Norrath on all points.

As for applying Sunders after 5, go ahead. If you have the rage and the GCD to do it, you might as well. It's a nice high-threat ability and since you dont have Devastate to replace it with, it should probably still be in your rotation if you want to put out max threat. You could be more lenient with it after five though and toss in some other abilities if you feel the need, but I would be inclined to keep on sunderin'.
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  #5  
Old 10-30-2007, 07:49 AM
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Source: Norrath
Your rotation will be very similar to a Protection warrior's.

Revenge > Mortal Strike > Sunder Armor > Sunder Armor, Heroic Strike when rage > 50.

Sunders continue dealing threat after you've stacked 5, so don't change the rotation.

Improved Heroic Strike is worth spending the points in, yes.

Awesome!

Thanks so much for a terrific explanation.

I am a bit puzzled about MS though.

'Revenge > Mortal Strike > Sunder Armor'

I know that after 2.3 with TM, MS will get more threat. Is MS tanking still useful before 2.3 goes live? Is MS my 2nd best threat generating attack after Revenge ?

Last edited by apsoccermd; 10-30-2007 at 07:56 AM.
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  #6  
Old 10-30-2007, 07:57 AM
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Yes, it is. Mortal Strike deals a fair amount of damage even with a one-hand.

Of course, if you are starving for rage, MS is the first thing you drop, but that's only natural.
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  #7  
Old 10-30-2007, 01:18 PM
Pocketsize Rhino
 
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Because i couldnt find any comparisons i thought i would do some theorycraft (as an aspiring arms/prot offtank). Scroll to the end of the post for conclusions.

Assuming you are initially following a rotation of

revenge, sunder, sunder, sunder --> repeat

What is the difference between adding heroic strikes, or replacing a sunder with a mortal strike. I'm going to ignore defiance and def stance as they effect both equally.I'll also ignore armor and crits for now. I'll also assume a 90 dps weapon and 1000 attack power.

2.6 speed weapon
================

instant attack damage = (90 * 2.6) + [(1000/14) * 2.4] ~= 405

none normalised attack damage = [90 + (1000/14)] * 2.6 ~= 419

ms threat ~= 405 +210 = 615
ms / sunder threat difference ~= 615 - 301 = 314

ms additional threat per second ~= 314/6 ~= 52.3~

ms additional threat per rage 0 imp sunder ~= 314/(30 - 15) ~= 20.9
ms additional threat per rage 1 imp sunder ~= 314/(30 - 14) ~= 19.6
ms additional threat per rage 2 imp sunder ~= 314/(30 - 13) ~= 18.5
ms additional threat per rage 3 imp sunder ~= 314/(30 - 12) ~= 17.4

hs additional threat = 176(thats the extra dmg) + 196(thats the additional threat) = 372

hs additional threat per second = 372/2.6 ~= 143

white hit would have given you = (7.5 * 419 / 274.7 + 3.5 * 2.6) / 2 ~= 10.26
this assumes http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas:Rage_generation is correct

hs threat per rage 0 imp hs = 372/(10.26+15) = 14.72
hs threat per rage 1 imp hs = 372/(10.26+14) = 15.3
hs threat per rage 2 imp hs = 372/(10.26+13) = 16
hs threat per rage 3 imp hs = 372/(10.26+12) = 16.7

1.6 speed weapon
================


instant attack damage = (90 * 1.6) + [(1000/14) * 2.4] ~= 315

none normalised attack damage = [90 + (1000/14)] * 1.6 ~= 258

ms threat ~= 315 +210 = 525
ms / sunder threat difference ~= 615 - 301 = 224

ms additional threat per second ~= 244/6 ~= 37.3~

ms additional threat per rage 0 imp sunder ~= 244/(30 - 15) ~= 16.2
ms additional threat per rage 1 imp sunder ~= 244/(30 - 14) ~= 15.25
ms additional threat per rage 2 imp sunder ~= 244/(30 - 13) ~= 14.46
ms additional threat per rage 3 imp sunder ~= 244/(30 - 12) ~= 13.6

hs additional threat per second = 372/1.6 ~= 232.5

white hit would have given you = (7.5 * 258 / 274.7 + 3.5 * 1.6) / 2 ~= 6.3

hs threat per rage 0 imp hs = 372/(6.3+15) = 17.56
hs threat per rage 1 imp hs = 372/(6.3+14) = 18.32
hs threat per rage 2 imp hs = 372/(6.3+13) = 19.26
hs threat per rage 3 imp hs = 372/(6.3+12) = 20.32


Summery
=======
A quick thought on armor reduction of the boss, comparative threat values should scale the same, however hs should decrease in efficiency slower as you wont be gaining as much rage for a white hit.

with a 1.6 speed weapon and infinite rage you can put out an additional ~269.8 tps with hs and ms

with a 2.6 speed weapon and infinite rage you can put out an additional ~195.3 tps with hs and ms

Fast weapon wins for tps in infinite rage environment.

For a rage limited environment, heroic strike is more efficient if you have a fast weapon and ms is more efficient if you have a slow weapon.

Surprisingly though if you have 3 imp hs, hs with a fast weapon is always either more efficient or just as efficient as mortal strike.

I'm sure i've made lots of stupid mistakes, and i've been very liberal with rounding, so feel free to correct me on anything/mock my assumptions/spelling/face.

Current Advice
===========
For the time being, get a fast weapon, spec imp hs and use

revenge, sunder, sunder, sunder --> repeat

throwing in heroic stikes when you have the rage. Only ms if you have to much rage to spend on heroics AND your mortal strikes hit for higher than 301 (sunders threat).

Last edited by Teadrinker; 10-30-2007 at 02:33 PM.
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  #8  
Old 10-30-2007, 01:27 PM
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Any level 70 one-hand should hit for more than 301 with Mortal Strike.

Assuming [item]Grom'tor's Charge[/item] and 600 AP in tank gear without Battleshout:

MS damage formula is AP/14 * normalized weapon speed + average hit + 210, which becomes 600/14 * 2.4 + 107.5 + 210.

That's ~420 damage.
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  #9  
Old 10-30-2007, 02:03 PM
Pocketsize Rhino
 
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Source: Norrath
Any level 70 one-hand should hit for more than 301 with Mortal Strike.

Assuming [item]Grom'tor's Charge[/item] and 600 AP in tank gear without Battleshout:

MS damage formula is AP/14 * normalized weapon speed + average hit + 210, which becomes 600/14 * 2.4 + 107.5 + 210.

That's ~420 damage.
Cheers,

damage reduction needed for a 301 ms with grom'tors would be 1 - 301/420 ~= 28%

i dont know what sort of damage reduction bosses have with sunders on, so i don't know how reasonable that is. My usual ms's are sometimes under 301 because i use a blue dagger (i know i know, but im just waiting for king's defender to drop, or hopefully if ms becomes much better for tanking season 1 sword)
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  #10  
Old 10-30-2007, 02:16 PM
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You're right. I should've known I forgot something.

Then again, the AP I suggested is rather low; my personal unbuffed AP is 800 something. Reaching 1k AP with raid buffs shouldn't be that difficult, especially as an OT warrior (which means you'll likely have Battleshout up most of the time).

1,000 AP would mean an average damage of ~490 before armor (which means it passes Sunder at ~38% DR, which is normal for fully Sundered SSC bosses, I believe).
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  #11  
Old 10-30-2007, 02:32 PM
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numbers for next patch, IF we get a 66% increase in threat on mortal strike (and its multiplicative), i have no idea if it was confirmed for the test realm yet, and even then that doesn't mean it will go through.

same stats 2.6 weapon
=================

ms threat ~= 405 +210 = 615* 1.66 = 1020.9
ms / sunder threat difference ~= 615 - 301 = 719.9

ms additional threat per second ~= 314/6 ~= 119.8~

ms additional threat per rage 0 imp sunder ~= 719/(30 - 15) ~= 47.9
ms additional threat per rage 1 imp sunder ~= 719/(30 - 14) ~= 44.9
ms additional threat per rage 2 imp sunder ~= 719/(30 - 13) ~= 42.3
ms additional threat per rage 3 imp sunder ~= 719/(30 - 12) ~= 39.9

same stats 1.6 weapon
=================

ms threat ~= 315 +210= 525 * 1.66 = 871.5
ms / sunder threat difference ~= 615 - 301 = 570.5

ms additional threat per second ~= 244/6 ~= 95.08~

ms additional threat per rage 0 imp sunder ~= 570/(30 - 15) ~= 38
ms additional threat per rage 1 imp sunder ~= 570/(30 - 14) ~= 35.6
ms additional threat per rage 2 imp sunder ~= 570/(30 - 13) ~= 33.5
ms additional threat per rage 3 imp sunder ~= 570/(30 - 12) ~= 31.7

Summary
======
Quite a difference, its almost the same as hs spam in terms of threat with a slow weapon and the rage efficiency is huge. Fast weapon still wins with infinite rage though. I would guess for most things, the rage efficiency of mortal strike with a slow main hand weapon would be best for offtanking.
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  #12  
Old 10-31-2007, 06:24 AM
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Thanks so much to everyone for this great explanation !
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  #13  
Old 11-07-2007, 02:30 PM
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Yes, it is. Mortal Strike deals a fair amount of damage even with a one-hand.

Of course, if you are starving for rage, MS is the first thing you drop, but that's only natural.
(I'm currently arms, though I don't have enough points right now to have much in Prot)

Should I be using Shield Block, in order to proc more revenges (and help with mitigation)? I've been normally using that a lot, but always feel rage starved. Should I be skipping it in order to take more damage, and thus get more rage to play with? I don't want to be a drain on my healers unnecessarily (esp as many aren't holy/resto specced while leveling), so I'm leery of taking that extra damage.

Currently, my priority tends to be: (Ack, apparently I've not put as much thought into this as I thought I did, as I don't really remember WHAT my system is ... yes, that is a warning light in my brain. )
Revenge > Sunder > Shield block > ...
... with SB prioritized over sunder when it's up. I throw in a TC or demo shout to get AOE threat. I will also cleave two targets, mixed in with sundering each, but in retrospect that might not be optimal.

I haven't noticed any threat issues, though that might just be that the DPS are being considerate.
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  #14  
Old 11-07-2007, 04:21 PM
Pocketsize Rhino
 
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How much do you know about crushing blows?

Normally, unless you have a exceptionally large amount of block/parry/dodge. You have 15% chance to be crushed by an attack by a level 73 or higher mob (i think this is only none special attacks). A crushing blow is basically like a half crit, it deals 150% damage.

When you have shield block up you are immune to crushing blows (as long as you have higher than 25% when you add together your dodge/parry/block vs a mob), which means you are less likely to die from sudden burst damage (this is the same principle as 490 defense for crit immunity). This is the primary reason for using shield block, it obviously increases the chance of having revenge up, but honestly i have only 3 kara epics and already have a ~50% chance to block parry or dodge an attack, so revenge should be up almost every cooldown anyway, and if not its not going to be long before it is.

As a basic rule, only use shield block in raids where mobs are level 73 or higher, and only stop using it if you can take the crushes i.e. you can live through 2 hits with 40-50% life left (if they both crushed you would be left with 10-25% life), you really need the rage, and its not a fast hitting mob like prince.

I generally use shield block throughout the whole of kara, with the exception of moroes where i am extremely rage starved.

As for priorities of attacks, currently:

revenge > sunder > heroic strike > mortal strike

As of next patch (hopefully in a week) if you can get your hands on a slow high dps one hander (gladiator one handers the week after), and have 3/3 tactical mastery i would prioritize:

revenge > mortal strike > sunder > heroic strike

hope that helps and wasn't to much to read ^^

** edit changed 25% crush chance to the correct value of 15%, thanks norrath

Last edited by Teadrinker; 11-08-2007 at 07:06 PM.
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  #15  
Old 11-07-2007, 04:56 PM
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Normally, unless you have a exceptionally large amount of block/parry/dodge. You have 25% chance to be crushed by an attack by a level 73 or higher mob (i think this is only none special attacks).
15%, not 25%.

And no, special attacks do not crush. There are also 73+ mobs that do not crush at all.

Cielwyn, if you're not tanking raids, skip Shield Block when you feel you don't have enough rage. (Even raid tanks sometimes skip Shield Block just to eat crushes for rage, though that's certainly not something the average tank should consider.)

If you're not in Outlands yet, don't worry horribly about "the most efficient way". Even in Outlands, you can tank everything up to and including Karazhan with no points in Protection (the main problem is gear and healing). You wouldn't tank it well, but it's doable.
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