Warrior pvProt - Guide to Protection PvP 1.0 - Page 3

Rudolf · #41 10-21-2008, 12:20 PM

I'm having a blast in BGs as 0/8/53 http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LZhxZMIdrgbzibIdsGo right now but I'm going to switch both shield spec points into Improved Bloodrage tonight.

My reasoning is that those 5 additional instant rage points would allow me to put up spell reflect from scratch .

Whenever a pally is running towards me, I know his next move is HoJ but I rarely have the initial rage to reflect it. I think most of them don't really pay attention to the SR animation so it shouldn't be too hard to pull off.

So, just because of spell reflect, imp bloodrage might be a huge asset.

Nyd · #42 10-21-2008, 12:27 PM

Source: Yarock
Any suggestions for the ideal main hand weapon? Fast/Slow?

I wish now I hadn't blown my BG honor on the 60 crit trinket I still need to buy the new pvp cloak and now perhaps a one-hander with resilience.

I've been using a slow mainhand (2.6ish) - I'm actually using Rod of the Sun King currently. Prot pvp being what it is you get far more benefit from larger devastate hits with the slower main hand than any benefit you'd get from a faster main hand and being able to (maybe) work in a heroic strike.

Kathvely · #43 10-21-2008, 05:01 PM

I have never been a huge pvp'er only pve, with the recent changes I am having a blast in 2v2's. I use near full pvp gear mix of brut/veng/Guardian, Bulwark shield, Dragonscale longblade, and t6 pve belt. Not fully set on my gear choices but its a decent mix.

I run with a feral druid so we push the limits of my survivability/control and use his pounce/dps to rip through classes. We havn’t pushed up that high in the ranking yet, but I find the duo less demanding on my dps and more of a skillfull placement of ability usage. A lot of the dps teams are run and gun dps teams and we burn them down fast. Healer/dps teams take a little more time/skill.

Short Strat: Paly + Any Non-Paly VS Prot War + Feral Druid
Palys are a little rough but controlable and killable. I charge the paly and hold his attention for a few seconds. Palys being DPS drunk will always go for the quick kill. Trink out of the first stun ALWAYS. Depending on the 2nd class I rotate through a few controlling abilities... ShockWave (early only 20 sec cd), SS (debuff), reflect on casts, stack up my sunders, and ShieldWall around 60-70%. I save my concussion blow.

About 10-20 seconds into the fight, I call for my druid to pop out of stealth and have him open up on the non-paly (most stealthers will gang up on me by this time but its a waste if i have SW up).

At this moment, I disarm the Paly and go on a rotation of every stun and controlling ability starting with Shieldbash then concussion blow ...... ending with a ShieldBash again to silence (3sec). Just estimating, I think i have around 15+ seconds of sproadic or full casting/dps control. I havnt confirmed but I have been informed palys cant bop out of silence. Due to my druids burst dps and my survivability we almost always force a fast double bop or end up with an almost dead boped paly wondering what happening to his dead teammate. Sometimes I can catch the paly with my silence (its luck). If he gets off the double bop we try to cyclone the non Paly to counter heals. Clean up time. A lot of the fights end with me near or close to death (LS). My druid saves his trink for the possible 1v1 with the Paly and he has an excellent record. My druid teammate has even taken out a 2 ret paly team after my death. The only team we have had problems with doing the strat is a lock/paly. An early Metamorphosis a strong counter to our makeup. ***Have your druid watch for the possible rez! ***Watch out for pre Bops on mages.

** Edit a NE trick I was informed about combining an Intimidating Shout + Shadowmeld to force a dropped target… "similar" to a hunter FD. Has anyone tried this?

Kathvely · #44 10-21-2008, 06:11 PM

Source: magnuss
The points you made are absolutely valid. At 80 the entire scene changes and those "overpowered" specs and classes will equalize to a good degree. Once again at 80 resil will be a saught after PvP stat with the STR and crit coming in good proportions. Chances are that by 80 the prot warrior will have scaled to still be very dangerous in PvP but far less of a machine as it is now.

I agree with your comment but prot wars should try to not go down the dps dps dps road and play to their benefits.... dps/control/protect/survive. Even if the current changes scale we will be a force in arenas imo. From a 2v2 persepctive, a dps at our side will fill a perfect balance against dps/dps teams and dps/healers.

Pizzashark · #45 10-22-2008, 01:55 AM

Source: Syana
The rapid charge is for root/snare breaking and the rage not the stun. Your targets are gonna become stun immune regardless because of concussion blow and shockwave and intercept.

Also, if you are a Human, you can totally go autoblocker x 2!

Still think it's a weak Glyph compared to the other available ones. Last Stand is amazing... your 5 minute lifesaver cooldown is now a 2 minute cooldown and yet still retains its primary purpose - keeping your ass alive long enough for that heal to land. This could be from someone else, or it could be from you with a bandage, potion, or enraged regen.

Between PH, hamstring, and Warbringer, I really think that if you're having issues staying close, you're either being completely outplayed or the class/spec is specifically designed to screw over melee (Hunter Survival is a good example.)

Pizzashark · #46 10-22-2008, 02:09 AM

Source: Kathvely
I agree with your comment but prot wars should try to not go down the dps dps dps road and play to their benefits.... dps/control/protect/survive. Even if the current changes scale we will be a force in arenas imo. From a 2v2 persepctive, a dps at our side will fill a perfect balance against dps/dps teams and dps/healers.

There are only two kinds of players in PvP: DPS and healers. With only a handful of exceptions, every DPS class has at least some degree of control available to them, and likewise most healers.

Just by using a shield you're guaranteeing that your rate of survival is going to be much higher than that of any other player, excepting maybe an opposing Feral Druid in bearform or a Protection Paladin (which you'll still never see.) PvP gear is already chock full of Stamina, that's increased by Vitality, and you're already going to have a ridiculous amount of Armor from your Shield and the Toughness bonus. You have a flat 16% damage reduction from all incoming spell damage to protect you in that regard, and you have just as much Resilience as any other Warrior. You don't need to gem or enchant for survival.

Control is inherent with the Protection spec. Warriors already have a limited degree of control as base class capabilities (intercept stun, intimidating shout, disarm, hamstring), and going deep Protection just gives you more (revenge stun, concussion blow, shield bash silence, heroic throw silence, shockwave) of that. You don't need to gem or enchant specifically for it, though you may want to pick up the Hamstring glyph, assuming Arms Warrior tears don't wash it down the drain.

You do, on the other hand, need to gem and enchant for increased DPS. As mentioned, the durability and control is inherent to the spec - DPS, however, is not. Prot does more DPS now than it ever has in the past, but it's still significantly behind both Arms and Fury in DPS, and even moreso if those specs decide to adjust their loadout purely for even more DPS, which they're likely to do in many cases.

You need to be filling those red sockets with Bold cuts, because you need the AP. You need to be socketing those yellow sockets with Smooth cuts, because you always need to have a lot of crit to compete against enemy Resilience. Those legs need a Nethercobra kit because you need the AP and the crit. That hat better have a Glyph of Ferocity on it and your shoulders better be sporting Greater Inscription of the Blade or Greater Inscription of Vengeance.

Why do you need the DPS? Well, aside from the fact that you can't win if you don't kill anyone, in order to make any use of that higher durability, you have to get people to attack you. Players aren't stupid like raid bosses - they will actively target the weakest, most vulnerable players on your team and ignore you, no matter what you say about their mothers or how pretty your threat rotation is. You have to convince those enemy players that you are the greatest threat, not that Priest. You do this by using your class abilities to force them to a point where they have no choice but to do something about you.

Decide what player(s) on the enemy team are the greatest threat to you. Go after those players, and never, ever let them get away from you - you have Warbringer, Hamstring, Piercing Howl, Intimidating Shout, and a boatload of stuns. If they're a healer, don't let them heal. If it's a Mage or Warlock, deny them those shatter combos and don't let them use Sheep or Fear. After they start losing games because your interference with their CC or healing cycles caused them to lose people, they're going to start taking you seriously and start doing something about you. This is how you protect your teammates, not by acting like a player is a raid boss and that just by being there, they'll automatically attack you.

Stop treating PvP like it's PvE.

Pizzashark · #47 10-22-2008, 02:21 AM

To be more specific about gearing:

Head: PvP. Meta gem should be Eternal Earthstorm Diamond (+5% SBV, +12 DefR.) Red slot should be Bold Crimson Spinel, if you can afford it. Bold Living Ruby if you can't. Enchant should be Glyph of Ferocity.

Neck: PvP. Yellow slow should be Smooth Lionseye. Again, use a Dawnstone if you can't afford an epic gem.

Shoulders: PvP. Enchant should be Greater Inscription of the Blade or Greater Inscription of Vengeance, depending on what faction you're for. You really don't have a viable excuse to not be exalted by this point with how readily available gold is and how easy it is to farm.

Back: PvP - preferably Dory's Embrace, which ironically is a badge item. Enchant should be 12 Agility.

Chest: PvP. Red slot should be Bold Crimson Spinel, yellow slots should be Smooth Lionseye. Enchant should be 6 Stats.

Shirt: Rich Purple Silk Shirt or Master Builder's Shirt. Accept no substitutes.

Tabard: Guild Tabard, Stone Guard's Herald, or Knight's Colors. If you're wearing an SSO tabard, I'm going to come find you and beat you with a 2 liter of Mountain Dew.

Wrist: PvP. Yellow slot should be Smooth Lionseye. Enchant should be 12 Strength.

Hands: PvP. Enchant should be 15 Strength.

Waist: PvP.

Legs: PvP. Armor kit should be Nethercobra, or Cobrahide if you can't afford it. Do not use Nethercleft or Clefthide!

Feet: PvP. Enchant should be Boar's Speed, or just plain Minor Speed if you're broke.

Ring: PvP.

Ring: PvP.

Trinket: Medallion of the Horde, or Medallion of the Alliance, rare or epic version. If you want, you can use a mod like TrinketMenu to automatically sub in a different trinket (Coren's Lucky Coin comes to mind) while your Medallion is on cooldown.

Trinket: Gnomeregan Auto-Blocker 600 (or Coren's Lucky Coin.)

Weapon: PvP or PvE, sword, axe, or mace. Enchant should be Mongoose or Executioner. You decide if you want more crit some of the time or more armor penetration some of the time - it amounts to much the same thing. Executioner looks better. Go for a slow speed, 2.40 or better. Higher damage ranges translate to stronger Devastates. Do not use a Dagger - they're normalized for 1.80 for attacks like Devastate, compared to an axe's, sword's, or mace's 2.40. Daggers mean less damage on Devastates, which in turn means less overall DPS. Fist weapons are normalized for 2.40 last I checked and are acceptable, but look ridiculous.

Shield: PvP or PvE, depending on ilvl. PvP shields tend to have the high stamina, block value, and Resilience you want, but since armor (and base block value) is based on ilvl, there are plenty of fine PvE shields to choose from, too. Try to avoid Defense Rating and other PvE stats if you can, and go for things like Hit Rating and Block Value if you go with a PvE shield. Enchant it with Tough Shield, +18 SBV.

Ranged: PvP, thrown. Guns and bows take too long to prepare, and have a much longer cooldown between shots. You won't be using your ranged weapon often, but the rare times you do, you want to be able to use it and then keep moving immediately.

jlafleur · #48 10-22-2008, 06:31 AM

Back: Gladiator's Resolution replaces Dory's Embrace. Available in 3.0.2. 20k honor plus AB marks.

The Gladiator's Resolution - Item - World of Warcraft

Trinket: Might consider the new Battlemaster's Resolve. 120 AP all the time which helps Revenge, Shockwave, TC, devastate, Concussion Blow. Available in 3.0.2. 35K honor plus AV marks (I think).

Battlemaster's Resolve - Item - World of Warcraft

Boot Enchant: Cats Swiftness or Boar's Speed. Pain in the butt without it since I switched out my runspeed meta for +5% SBV.

Last Stand might be good WOTLK but isn't available right now.

Lunestone · #49 10-22-2008, 08:02 AM

You might also wanna address what kind of weapon you're using, as I asked in another post... I was curious whether Brutalizer or Dragonstrike would be better... Kazeyonoma said he still thought Brut was the way to go, I still have yet to try the Dragon but my friend said he thought a harder hitting weap was the way to go.

But yeah, i'm very excited about all the possibilities... i've hardly ever pvp'd but was having a blast the other night, my friend said, "Lune's got the taste for blood guys...."

**Squashed** · #50 10-22-2008, 08:04 AM

Anyone thats protPvP'd since the patch have comments on entering rage starvation by not being attacked?

I've attacked a traning dummies to simulate this, and I'm nigh-useless. Does warbringer help mitigate this? Will people learn to not attack you?

Aeritides · #51 10-22-2008, 08:06 AM

Source: Pizzashark
I don't plan on ever taking critical block, because I seriously doubt any melee class is going to be capable of doling out a 2k non-crit attack, and - as far as I'm aware - a blocked attack cannot crit, period.

It also adds 15% to crit with shield slam though, and shield slam is an ever increasing chunk of your dmg.

**veneretio** · #52 10-22-2008, 08:14 AM

PvP will always be about burst damage and as a result, we're far better off with as slow of weapon as possible (2.6-2.8 speed) especially since it'll increase Devastate's damage as well. The best Prot PvP weapon atm may very well be The Decapitator despite it's relatively lackluster dps. It's slow enough to still have impact and the added burst potential provided by the usage is simply unmatched by any other weapon in the game currently.

**Magnuss** · #53 10-22-2008, 09:30 AM

Source: Squashed
Anyone thats protPvP'd since the patch have comments on entering rage starvation by not being attacked?

I've attacked a traning dummies to simulate this, and I'm nigh-useless. Does warbringer help mitigate this? Will people learn to not attack you?

Yes i have run into this on quite a few occasions where someone decided i wasnt worth the time and started laying into my healer and completely ignoring me. The few options you have available to you are to use your charge to generate rage for a shield slam. Killing someone who is screwing with your healer is important. You can also get the revenge glyph and if you are specd properly into deep arms your revenge will only cost 2 rage. that is 2 rage for a hard hitting revenge (and possible stun) and a heroic strike. this isnt going to guarentee you enough damage to affect them but you need to determine what you want to do with the target you are chasing. If he is going to kill your healer in a couple of seconds, then build the rage necessary to stun lock him. Warstomp, intim shout, conc blow, possible revenge stun, etc. Do what you can to get him away from your healer. Ideally the target will turn and do something to get you off of him. This is what you are waiting for. If he stuns you then it gives you distance one you break out of the stun to charge. If he does any kind of attack he is feeding you the rage you need to continue to CC him or kill him.

Basically the key is to either force the target to be unable to reach his objective (like your healer), or force him to think you are far more of a threat then the person he is attacking. Both of these objectives dont require a full rage bar and if you can get lucky the can require as little as 2 rage. just dont be ancy by hitting buttons that arent going to do anything. Devastate might be able to proc a S&B but its alot more rage then revenge is, with half the benefit.

**Squashed** · #54 10-22-2008, 10:08 AM

If you assume worst case that they completely ignore you and you cannot revenge then all you have are white attacks and charge generating rage you're going to be stuck.

After thinking for a bit, if you adjust your group composition for PvP such that you have offensive minded healing (boomkin possibly) or straight DPS with survivability (retadin / rogue) you may be more effective. You certainly can't run healer/prot-war and hope to be effective. (they will pound your healer).

I do really think something needs to be done regarding the D(iminishing) R(eturns) on current warrior abilties. They all appear in my limited 'testing' to all share DR. IMO charge/intercept should be linked to each other, shockwave & conc. blow get linked but only to each other. Revenge should be completely independent as it is uncontrolled. Any comments on DR?

Rootkitworm · #55 10-22-2008, 11:03 AM

So are you saying I should buy the vendor pvp blues over my ZA/Badge/T5 PVE gear? That seems like it would be a downgrade of some sort. I don't PVP much, but I would like to start now

What should I do, here is my armory: The World of Warcraft Armory

**Kazeyonoma** · #56 10-22-2008, 11:14 AM

well now your talking about dropping in Ilvl items for pvp purposes.

That doesn't make sense, now if you were going from Za/Badge/T5 pve gear to comparable level pve gear (namely season 2 which you can buy with honor) then yes, you'll see a larger benefit in the pvp gear than pve.

Nyd · #57 10-22-2008, 11:33 AM

Source: Lunestone
You might also wanna address what kind of weapon you're using, as I asked in another post... I was curious whether Brutalizer or Dragonstrike would be better... Kazeyonoma said he still thought Brut was the way to go, I still have yet to try the Dragon but my friend said he thought a harder hitting weap was the way to go.

It depends to some extent I think on race. Being dwarf I am favoring hammers now. I use the slower speed, harder hitting Rod of the Sun King from Kael. It's a leftover piece from my dual wield devastate days and is still enchanted with Executioner, although I question executioner to some degree now. It's something I am going to be examining heavily this week.

There will be some updates coming to the guide in the enchant and glyph sections tonight as I work through the updates.

Zoft · #58 10-22-2008, 01:11 PM

I'd like to point out some basic good and bad matchups. I'm limited on time ATM so I have only read the OP.

Rogues - Very good matchup for PvP Prot. They practically kill themselves on us. Specific concerns revolve around them dismantling us and bursting us down before dismantle wears off.
Suggestions:
Intervene away after a dismantle.
Intimidating shout to buy some time.
Burn Defensive Cooldowns. Other then shield block.

Hunters - Fun match up. We can basically ignore their pet as it will do the least damage to us or Prot pallies. And it gives us rage.
Suggestions:
Try to reach them without burning charge so you can save it for the disengage. Or Charge their pet to get close without putting them on DR.
Spell reflect then run into their freezing traps. They won't get frozen in my experience, but it blows the trap.
Their pets usually feed you revenge procs too!

Mages - Very fun matchup. If they get a burst on us without us doing anything about it, they can kill us. If we get ontop of them we give them nightmares. More so then anyone else.
Suggestions:
As with hunters try not to blow charge. Charge and Intercept are both useful for catching them after a blink. Many Mages will blink in response to us hitting them with Conc Blow.
It may be possible to mount up if they iceblock to allow yourself to close distance faster.
One of the matchups where you want a PvP trinket. Warbringer isn't enough if they frost nova you and stay in the charge deadzone. Hitting the trinket will get you to them faster. Consider carefully how you will counter frost nova.

Priests - With Berserker rage in defensive and battle we can really stick to them.
Suggestions:
Don't try to blow all your stuns and silences needlessly. Catching them healing works better as their instant heals are somewhat limited.
Saving Shield Slam to hit their PW:S may be a viable tactic. It may also be a wash if they are loaded to the gills with buffs.

Druids - Varies greatly with type
Moonkin Suggestions: Stick to them and realize that unlike damage shield Thorns goes through armor. They can output great magic burst and are thus dangerous like mages. Typhoon can be countered immediatly by warbringer.
Feral: They also practically kill themselves on our damage shields however do not underestimate the power of their bleeds. They can output a lot more damage now, and can bleed kite us.
Resto: Watch their targets and their hand movements. In group PvP you need to lock them down at the right time to make their healing targets die. Stick to them like glue and they will burn a lot of mana trying to get away.
Druid suggestions in general: Roots may cause similiar problems as frost nova.

Warriors- Always interesting is facing other warriors. Prot gives us an adavantage against our brethren.
Suggestions:
Disarm is your friend for the disarm. Shield block is also your friend here.
Against other PvPProt it's going to be interesting.
Varies with the targets skill to be honest. Few PvP arms or Fury wars will swap to Defensive to disarm in my experience.
Try to catch them in Zerker stance with a stunlock. Toss in a disarm and any allies around nuking the warrior will just gib him.

Pallies- It varies
Prot suggestions: Try to ignore/save to last. If they are healing lock em down.
Holy: Lock down. Save your silences and stuns for when they try to heal.
Ret pallies: Fun fact. Berserker rage removes Repentance. Otherwise Disarm is your friend. Until they are nerfed down from PvP burst all holy damage god mode your job is mostly to lock down their damage output long enough for them to be burned down. Also a blow cooldowns target.
General: Swap targets if they Shield. Its better to be over 8 yards away when it wears off so you can intercept them.

Warlocks- With warlocks having less defensive abilities at 70 its interesting. It may change when they get Demonic circle.
Suggestions:
Don't trinket deathcoil. Rage the fear that comes after. Consider saving your charge/intercept for after coil.
Spell reflect is great.
Depending on pet you may be able to gib them with a prot burst. Or they may feed you revenge procs. It varies so much.
Lockdown if they turn into a big demon.

Shamans- Varies
Enhancement should be treated like arms wars and ret pallies. Lots of damage output that a disarm kills.
Elemental is interesting. You want to spell reflect chain lightnings if you can.
Resto is similiar to holy pallies.
Lightning shield is like thorns.

Just some specific food for thought. I feel we have an advantage over physical damage dealers.

**Magnuss** · #59 10-22-2008, 01:54 PM

Nice post Zoft, good suggestions on all i think. Would also be good to point out that whenever other melee classes are trying to combat you, try to keep your front to them as often as possible. This is really kind of a "given" but you would be amazed how often people slip and dont think about it.

Pizzashark · #60 10-22-2008, 10:24 PM

Source: Squashed
Anyone thats protPvP'd since the patch have comments on entering rage starvation by not being attacked?

I've attacked a traning dummies to simulate this, and I'm nigh-useless. Does warbringer help mitigate this? Will people learn to not attack you?

People won't attack you unless they consider you a bigger threat than the healers or other DPS... or they're stupid.

If you aren't getting Rage from being attacked, you need to practice proper Rage conservation. Don't blow your Rage meaninglessly if you know you aren't going to have a lot of it. Save Bloodrage (and Charge now, maybe) for times you need that Rage in a hurry, spell reflection being the most common use for it. Always have Rage for a Shield Bash, and if you're expecting them to cast a spell, try to leave your GCD free - nothing sucks more than missing that Flash Heal because you used a Devastate just before they started casting.

Charge, Intercept, Concussion Blow, and Shockwave all share a single DR timer - it's possible to Charge, CB, and SW all together for less total stun time than a CB on its own. SW and CB do pretty solid damage in addition to the stun, of course, so it's a bit of a decision whether you need the damage or the stuntime more. Revenge stun is on its own, separate DR timer. To my knowledge, all Warrior stuns in the same DR group are shared among multiple Warriors. I'm not sure how stomp or other classes' stuns factor into this, but I think it generally works out that all controlled stuns are one DR, and all uncontrolled stuns (Revenge stun being an example) are in another. I'm not sure about Kidney Shot and Cheap Shot... last I remember, they were on separate timers shared only with other Kidney Shots or Cheap Shots.

I don't plan on taking Critical Block because I can't find the points for it without sacrificing more important abilities. The best I could do would be to turn 2/3 Puncture into 2/3 Critical Block, and I frankly think that a 10 Rage Devastate is superior to 10% more crit on Shield Slam.