[Lachesis]

Hi, all. Top bear for my guild here. We've reached vezax 25-man, and were able to get in a night of attempts on him this previous raid week (we raid on a three-day schedule, so that means everything up to Gen. was cleared in two days- pretty decent if you ask me.)

We're experiencing the normal learning curve (biggest setback is me needing quicker reaction time for surge of darkness- gonna be playing with reaction time trainers online this week.) but barring stupid things like "ooops, I killed 2 people on my side and gave the boss 10% of his health back" (that person won't be seeing him this week), one of our biggest problems is dps not being able to manage their threat during the first ~minute of the fight.

I've got a lot of agility socketed into my gear, which increases crit/ap, and I generally don't have an issue with threat. They're sitting back and wanding or playing peggle until they get a shadow crash, at which point they open up. I'm using a mangle-lac-lac rotation, keeping demo roar up, which about optimal for threat as I understand it. Basically, I know my class fairly well, and I know the threat issue is theirs, not mine. I see this as well because our normal top dpser is also hitting numbers like 17k dps on our attempts, and his name never appears on omen- ever. He's an arcane mage, so he's got great threat reduction from talents, but still, he's using MI and invis well.

Anyway, I just wanted to check in and hear from other tanks- do you know of anything I can do to give myself a threat boost early on in the fight? At this point I'm thinking of blowing frenzied regen for healing threat, which is a pretty stupid idea considering how good it is if ou have it glyphed (as I do) for bad damage spikes.

Thanks for reading

Also, bears wishing to armory me should look for Lachisus, twisting nether server.

TL;DR, one-phase fight with dps candy mechanic is hard.

[Dragaan]

Tell your rogues to chain ToTT on you off the bat, and have paladins use salvation as needed. Make sure your priests know where you stand with threat before they throw a Pain Sup. on you as well, since that lowers your threat as well. Problem should be solved.

As for using reaction time training or w/e - Just stand at max melee range while tanking him. Then once u see surge cast, just use ur mouse to turn and run. A monkey can get out of his hitbox quick enough while he's casting surge to never get hit once. It's really, really easy.

[Lachesis]

Yeah, those are things we've been looking at- we're only running one rogue most of the time, though, our interrupters are warriors.
And I'll freely admit that I'm a keyboard turner, and while I'm very good at it, I figured out very quickly that that doesn't work for this fight, and I've been doing exactly what you suggested-inch back to the edge of his hitbox, use the mouse to turn my camera and tank left-handed while keeping my fingers on my mouse to start moving the second I see the cast. I just need to reduce it to the half-second I see it >.<
Also, anyone know if baby-spicing him is considered an exploit? A little off-topic but hey, what can I say?

[Faction]

You can tank the surges with cool downs (External as well). This will increase your threat and remove a bit of difficulty from the fight.

If you continue to kite, use a priest with the Body and Soul talent to shield you just as he casts surge. Alternatively, you can use the JC trinket (Ruby Hare is it?) with Barkskin macroed.

I tanked him as a bear for our first kill and used Bubble/Trinket. DK tanks are better for the fight as many will tell you. We use one too (Cat dps is good).

[Lachesis]

We're actually discussing using body and soul on our guild forums, I'm pretty sure we're gonna go with that. Our progression tanking setup is 1 druid and two paladins, so we don't have a DK tank (something we're sorely lacking lol) otherwise we'd just go with that and I'd just rawrshredlawlOPdps.
Basically from what the two responses are saying, it looks like we pretty much know what we're doing, it just takes a little fine tuning and practice.

also, yeah, I've been using barkskin on every kite phase. Didn't think of using that ruby hare, though, that's a creative idea

[Dragaan]

I don't want to sound TOO harsh here, but... there is no such thing as being "good" at keyboard turning. End-game raiding requires you to be able to move around and control your character very well, ESPECIALLY for tanks. That is something you absolutely must fix! But I guess this isn't the place to go on about that... You will never ever be able to tank Yogg like that. I'm surprised you could get away with it even on ezmode versions of earlier ulduar bosses. Fix it

[Dragaan]

If you are too slow to avoid getting hit when you are supposed to be kiting him (and you are using your big cooldowns because of it), you shouldn't even be kiting him at all. You might as well just eat the 2 or 3 hits that go through normally.

[tuffmuffin]

Source: Dragaan I don't want to sound TOO harsh here, but... there is no such thing as being "good" at keyboard turning. End-game raiding requires you to be able to move around and control your character very well, ESPECIALLY for tanks. That is something you absolutely must fix! But I guess this isn't the place to go on about that... You will never ever be able to tank Yogg like that. I'm surprised you could get away with it even on ezmode versions of earlier ulduar bosses. Fix it

There is such a thing as being good at keyboard turning, and it actually takes skill to do. A mouse dumbs the motion down to make it more universal. Believe it or not, but using a Mouse is still foreign to some players

Keyboard turning is and always has been acceptable for PvE. It's PvP that you can't really do successfully with a keyboard (and even then if done properly it can be executed at least fairly well.) Playing the role of a tank;
Naxx is just a zergfest, Gothik being the only real fight where keyboard turning can work against you due to the nature of adds. It's less of an issue on Live side than Undead. Everything else can be done pretty easily, even Thadius, Heigan, or any other 'movement intensive' fight if you know what you're doing. Sarth (any tank tole) can be done just fine, again the Elemental Add tank having the roughest time due to the nature of the adds. Malygos is easily doable for the tank purely on a keyboard as well.


Nothing in Ulduar is really terrible either;

• Razorscale is similar to Gothik Live side for the adds, so it isn't too bad, and Phase 2 is very simple.
• Ignis isn't much of a problem as all you really do is strafe, even whoever is on adds.
• Council doesn't have much movement, again pretty much being covered by strafing.
• No movement for Kologarn unless you're the Rubble tank, and that requires very little movement. Same for Auriaya really. The MT will usually be a Warrior simply because of her fear, and tanking the Sentinels doesn't require much. If for some reason the tank dsoesn't have a way to break fear either themselves or through external help, having to turn some isn't detrimental.
• Hodir isn't bad since the majority of the time the tank will simply jump in place or slowly drag him closer to spot lights for people to stand in.
• Freya is mostly stationary, as is Thorim in the arena; just some slight movements. Tunnel group requires nothing special, now that Whirling Trip or whatever it is only hits the tank.
• Mimiron is easy as you can just line up an escape path through bombs for Shock Blast, Laser Barrage is a joke for tanks to avoid, especially now. There are no rockets to avoid unless you are extremely melee heavy now that they prefer ranged targets.
• Vezax can be handled by strafing pretty handily.

Yogg-Saron is the only real exceptoion, and that simply depends on what role you are. If you'll be going into the Brain room, keyboard turning can work against you due to the skulls. That's it. Phases 1 and 3 can be done pretty easily keyboard turning once you're accustomed to them, and Phase 2 for the Crusher jouster requires no actual turning except going from Crusher to Crusher. Since he's a Druid, odds are pretty decent he'll be chosen to stick to the top to joust Crushers as Swipe is fantastic for it.

Stuff may be easier to do with a mouse once you're accustomed to actually using it, but in the PvE world, keyboard turning is the least of the problems and can still be done quite well if you're skilled. I've tanked Bear runs back in ZA purely on a keyboard and my group couldn't tell the difference. Clicking is by far a worse problem to fix.

[Cookie]

Tell your dps to download Omen and learn to use it.

As for the surges, if you're a keyboard turner (-.-) The easiest method would be to either not kite at all, or if you absolutely want to, when you see him start to cast Surge, just run straight ahead through him while everyone stops dpsing. It'll be faster than turning around and running.

Source: tuffmuffin There is such a thing as being good at keyboard turning, and it actually takes skill to do. A mouse dumbs the motion down to make it more universal. Believe it or not, but using a Mouse is still foreign to some players Keyboard turning is and always has been acceptable for PvE.

No, just no. Having this notion is simply wrong. I've never seen a keyboard turner move as fast or be as aware of surroundings as someone who used both a mouse and keyboard. Ever. I used to be a keyboard turner when I first started playing and from personal experience, it's a retardedly slow way to move. Regardless of how fast they are, it's still slow enough to be a hinderance, especially if the person is slow to react to start with.

I honestly don't know how you haven't noticed most bosses in Ulduar require some sort of turning by the tank, which becomes more apparent on hard modes.

I don't know what makes you think that keyboard turning has always been "acceptable" either. Perhaps it's because you yourself use it? Personally, I don't know of any top guild that accepts keyboard turners. Just last week, a friend's raiding guild just kicked a new app for it, and they aren't even a top guild, more ranked somewhere in the 800's.

[tuffmuffin]

Strafing is smarter than running through him

Source: Cookie No, just no. Having this notion is simply wrong. I've never seen a keyboard turner move as fast or be as aware of surroundings as someone who used both a mouse and keyboard. Ever. I used to be a keyboard turner when I first started playing and from personal experience, it's a retardedly slow way to move. Regardless of how fast they are, it's still slow enough to be a hinderance, especially if the person is slow to react to start with. I honestly don't know how you haven't noticed most bosses in Ulduar require some sort of turning by the tank, which becomes more apparent on hard modes. I don't know what makes you think that keyboard turning has always been "acceptable" either. Perhaps it's because you yourself use it? Personally, I don't know of any top guild that accepts keyboard turners. Just last week, a friend's raiding guild just kicked a new app for it, and they aren't even a top guild, more ranked somewhere in the 800's.

Having this notion is called different, not wrong. Don't insult me just because I think differently than you. When I say keyboard turning is acceptable, it's because generally speaking it is; whether you agree or not. Just because you haven't seen someone that doesn't fail at it doesn't justify you saying it's a horrid playstyle. Everything can be done with it, and if you know what you're doing, it can be done well. That's the key - Most people that do it are newer players or don't know how to properly do it. You underestimate the power of strafing if you say it's retardedly slow (You said yourself you did it as a new player, so it's safe to assume you haven't even tried now with any skills you may have developed since then). It's virtually the same as using a mouse if you know how to position properly. A fraction slower if you need to make a slight adjustment while moving. Certainly not slow enough to be a hinderance

I don't know how you haven't noticed everything in Ulduar can be done quite easily by strafing, and what hard modes are you even refering to?
Flame Leviathan makes no difference if you keyboard turn or not due to the way vehicles work, XT is stationary and any add tank barely needs to move. Iron Council requires *less* movement than easy mode (especially if Runemaster is killed first), Hodir is a zerg so you move as little as possible, Thorim remains the same for tanks, Freya is the same movement wise, Vezax is stationary.
Mimiron is really the only fight on hardmode where there is more movement and emphasis is placed on being extremely quick at it, and Yogg will always favor those with a mouse.

Keep in mind that 'top guilds' or more serious guilds are a small percent of the player base. They require set skills from their raiders, and a mouse is pretty much a requirement for those, so having to use the mouse for movement should come naturally to them. They seek players like themselves. In more casual, laid back guilds, they could care less what you do if you do it well enough to get by. If you've even done a PuG you'd know how many people keyboard turn.

No, I don't keyboard turn. The only time I have is back when I used a wireless mouse in BC and it died in the middle of a raid. I kept going until a break was called to get new batteries. Have I done it recently? No. If I had to do it again for some reason, could I do it well? No doubt about it. I'm sure many tanks could keyboard turn well if they absolutely had to for some reason.

Clicking is still by far a worse problem.
At any rate, this thread is horribly off topic now, so I won't continue this conversation here. In the words of Kaze, move it to PMs or something.

[Lachesis]

I'll say that being a keyboard turner has only rarely caused me any difficulty. In fact, I can think of very few fights where it simply doesn't work- this fight for surge, prince malchezaar for melee dps... hell, I've kited archimonde's flames very well with circle-strafing on the keyboard. It takes skill, but if you were a bad enough player for long enough before taking the time to learn, you do get very good at it.
However, a good keyboard turner knows when it cannot be used and adjusts, just as any good raider knows when to use what and how. I don't plan to be using my a key to avoid lunatic gaze on yogg.

Anyway, thread getting quite off topic. I'm gonna agree with the person who said to smack my dpsers for not using omen. Ever since twisted visage dropped, my threat's shot up on most fights, and I think they've gotten complacent. I'll just have em not dps at all until the first kite phase, then move their omen meters to the middle of their screen and stare at it until the boss dies.

Edit: what tuffmuffin said at the bottom of his post: would love to discuss the fine points of k-turning, but not here. Make a new thread and pm it to us or something :P

[Mammoth]

If you are using a constant Mangle-Lacerate-Lacerate rotation you can increase your threat by using Faerie Fire and Swipe in place of the Lacerates, except to keep your 5 stack of the bleed up. In mostly BiS 10-man Ulduar gear my FF does triple the threat of a Lacerate. Swipe also does more threat but it's a much smaller increase, about 1.3 times Lacerate for me..

Once you get your 5 stack lacerate up I'd recommend trying an ability rotation of Mangle on cooldown, FF on cooldown, Swipe in between, and Lacerate to keep the 5-stack up. That should help increase your threat. You can also Lacerate instead of Swipe if you find missed Lacerates are causing you to drop the stack without losing too much threat potential.

[Squirrelnut]

I just wanted to weigh in quickly with my Warrior 2 cents. I am sure Druids are very different however I have no doubt that your skill as a tank would at least double if you force yourself to utilize mouse movement.

I know Warriors are unique in the number of things we need to do but I am sure even Druids could see HUGE benefits by improving mobility. You may be adept at keyboard turning... but consider how good you would be with that doubled because your reaction time, positioning and overall mobility would be reliant upon your reflexes instead of built-in keyboard time. There simply is no comparison with the precision that mouse movement provides and anyone interested in improving their skill as a player be it PvE or PvP should make learning to move with the mouse one of their highest priorities (along with ensuring ALL your abilities are keybound and not clicked). Any initial awkwardness is more then accounted for in resulting viability as a player, MAKE THE SWITCH!

Looking at this encounter in particular I would highly recommend not kiting. It simplifies the fight, improves tank threat, is not that difficult to do and is important when you begin looking at hardmodes. I am not aware of all the cooldowns that Druids have available but considering your HP is similar to Warriors when using our Last Stand cooldown I would think you should have no problem.

Personally I Shield Wall through the first, Last Stand / Trinket through the second back and forth and there is virtually no difference for healers. I would think many of your threat issues would be resolved with the simple fact that you have all that extra time to hit him instead of running around like a chicken with your head cut off

Good luck

[Lachesis]

For adding swipe to the rotation and fff on cooldown, thanks, that's exactly what I was looking for, I'll try that.

As for improving reaction time with mouse turns, I keep thinking about doing that, though I generally have a very good reaction time as my threat moves (mangle, maul, lacerate, etc) as well as cooldowns are on my numberpad, and my mouse is very close to that. Since charge is f and taunt is c, I don't often have much trouble reacting to bad situations- but I agree, it would probably improve my playing somewhat overall.

As far as tanking through the surge, Barkskin (30% reduction to all incoming damage, after armor (I think) ) is always up for the kite, but that's not enough to survive 56-60k hits. Since we generally are heavy on paladins, I can see a bubble/HoS rotation supplimenting the barkskin, which could allow that. I think we'll give that a shot this week. The bubble/HoS trick is what got me through sartharion's flame breaths on our 3drake kills.

Hand of sacrifice, if ya don't know, transfers 30% of incoming damage from the target to the paladin for 8 seconds. would requige precise timing, but it could work.

Also, on druid dcooldowns, we have barkskin which I already mentioned, last stand (survival instincts) and enraged regeneration (frenzied regenration). We also generally glyph frenzied regen, increasing all healing effects to the druid by 20%

[Fayre]

I noticed on Armory you have the JC trinket. Add that to your rotation on Surges also - it has a 1m cooldown. I'm sure you can tank through them if your healers are awake and you use the cooldowns in the raid intelligently combined with your own. Constantly being ready to turn tail and run is going to mess with your rotation whether its perfect elsewhere or not. One more thing: you're not expertise capped. Use the exp food for this if you're not already.

[Lachesis]

Oooh, that reminds me- second trinket slot. I currently have the ignis 10-man trinket, which is 105 dodge rating constantly, but it's use ability is useless to me since it shares a cooldown with monarch crab.
I also have defender's code, which does not share a cooldown with monarch crab, but has a two-minute cooldown- every other surge of darkness. The 455 dodge from it is pretty sexyful, though.
Finally, I have the essence of gossamer, nice stam boost, but it gives you a mitigation proc, not an ability that you can use on call.

I'm leaning towards D.Code for this. While not having it up for every surge is disappointing, I can rotate my other cooldowns every other surge to make up for it, similar to how i tank through frozen blows (barkskin the first, f.regen the second, barkskin the third, survival instincts the fourth, repeat), so for this I would be using barkskin+jc trink+d.code for surge one, BS+crab+Regen for number two, bs/crab/dcode for 3 and bs/crab/si for #4, then repeat cycle. But if anyone else has any thoughts, feel free to share

Also, eew @ the pants armory caught me in... I imagine you went "16 armor pen? wtf kind of tank is this?" Armory should be correct now.

[Massacre]

Didn't read the thread, if you want more threat when opening... FF , Demo Roar, Mange, Lac, Lac, Berserk - Spam mangle, re apply Demo Roar and then start your rotation again. You should be able to coast at over 10k threat per second.

[Lachesis]

Thanks, that's... quite obvious, actually, and unnessecary.

Fixes to our strategy: tanked in places instead of kited, used Barkskin+monarch crab+Defender's code/survival instincts/ frenzied regen and a Hand of Sacrifice rotation to survive surge.

Had zero threat issues (thanks to the feral who brought up using faerie fire on cooldown, rotation I used after applying 5-stack lacerate was mangle-lac-fff-mangle-lac-swipe while using every second or third swipe to refresh demo shout)

Got our kill within an hour of finishing the trash.
Thanks to everyone who responded to this thread.

[Fayre]

Grats to you