General Disc Pirest struggling to heal with a Holy Paladin

backpacky · #1 10-31-2009, 12:41 PM

Hi Everyone,

I am a long time reader never poster but I have finally come up with something that I truly need to ask finally.

I use both Holy and Disc talent trees for healing, Holy for raid healing and Disc for tank healing. The problem I have is that I am usually tank healing with a Holy Paladin. I end up standing there totally fixed watching the Paladin healing both tanks without me even needing to do anything. I have a lot of trouble keeping myself in any type of a rotation because I end up bored and tossing random spells onto the raid. I hate to overheal and so I usually try to be reactive with my healing. When my tank finally takes a substantial amount of damage it takes me an extra second to react because I wasn't paying attention.

I am not really sure what my problem is but I find it really challenging to heal with a paladin. I am looking for any advice or strategies that I can use to heal with a holy paladin so I don't feel so useless.

onimarishu · #2 10-31-2009, 12:52 PM

Source: backpacky
I hate to overheal and so I usually try to be reactive with my healing.

You're living in the wrong world (currently). We live in the world where more than 50% of everyone's healing is overheal, and some people (druids particularly) can go an entire raid at 75-80% overheal.

When my tank finally takes a substantial amount of damage it takes me an extra second to react because I wasn't paying attention.

I would suggest some kind of raid frame that allows you to always have an eye specifically on your target (focus frame) or the tanks in general (some sort of "Main Tanks" window).

I am not really sure what my problem is but I find it really challenging to heal with a paladin. I am looking for any advice or strategies that I can use to heal with a holy paladin so I don't feel so useless.

Holy Paladins are the Gods of Tank healing. Go into a VoA with a Holy Pally, he's gonna destroy the meters on Koralon and Emalon because of Beacon of Light and the fact that there are 2 targets taking constant damage.

As Disc, most of your healing is actually going to be through "Absorb" mechanics, such as Power Word: Shield and Divine Aegis.

Durandro · #3 10-31-2009, 01:03 PM

Ignore what the Paladin is doing. You're not there to heal, you're there to prevent. Just make sure Power Word: Shield, et al are on the tanks at all time, then do whatever else as and when required.

Pallynator · #4 10-31-2009, 08:30 PM

I don't know much about disc priest mechanics, but I'll try to offer some advice anyway since I play a holy pally.

I end up standing there totally fixed watching the Paladin healing both tanks without me even needing to do anything

From the sounds of it, the pally has beacon on your tank and is casting his heals on his tank. All of his healing is going to overflow onto your tank, so there may not be a lot for you to do at some times. I'll offer the same advice as Durandro - forget about what the pally is doing. Concentrate on keeping your 'rotation' going (as if the pally wasn't there), make sure your shields are up etc... all of your disc priest goodness. There will be times where the heals coming to your tank through Beacon will not be enough, or will be useless - ie lots of overhealing, so make sure you are ready at those times.

I hate to overheal and so I usually try to be reactive with my healing.

Try to move away from healing reactively to more of a proactive style. Looking at the bosses cast bar can help to anticipate incoming damage, and a good idea of the fight mechanics will also help. Also, don't be afraid to overheal... its really the norm these days.

Some additional information may help... is there much of a difference in gear level between you and the pally? How many healers are you running? And what fights in particular are you doing?

I'll leave any specific priest advice to someone who is more well versed in their healing mechanics.

**sangredios** · #5 10-31-2009, 09:50 PM

I take it from your achievements that you are doing ulduar and totc 10's, if you bring both a pala and a priest to tank heal you are running with one healer to many.

If this is true, change you setup to be two raid healers and one tank healer, where the raid healers keep and eye on the tank and help out when needed.

WarTotem · #6 11-01-2009, 07:23 AM

Source: sangredios
I take it from your achievements that you are doing ulduar and totc 10's, if you bring both a pala and a priest to tank heal you are running with one healer to many.

If this is true, change you setup to be two raid healers and one tank healer, where the raid healers keep and eye on the tank and help out when needed.

This.

In the 10mans I'm doing (as Resto Sham) we usually have either a Paladin or disc priest on the tanks, a holy priest or druid on the raid and me filling in where needed.

Although our healer assignments can depend on the situation, the general rule is:
<TANK> Paladin - Disc Priest - Shaman - Holy Priest - Druid <RAID>
The closer you are to either side, the better they are it.
Again, general rule, this is more of a default setup if you totally don't know your healers.

Goomba · #7 11-01-2009, 08:23 AM

As a disc priest myself who has run a lot with an amazing paly healer, I've experienced some things that are similar....

Here's what I do...

first off, in a "standard" fight (which doesn't exist, but since none of us are there in each other's heads, we have to talk about hypotheticals), I pw:shield the tanks, keep hots on them, and then cast either flash heal or prayer of healing to proc Divine Aegis on them....if they don't have both Divine Aegis and PW:s on them at all times, I'm not doing my job, with the rare exception of events like meteor fist in koralon, when I wait until DBM warns me that he's casting fists to cast my shields and divine aegis procs

notice the thinking here....prayer of healing, flash heal, and penance are sometimes "healing" spells....I use them to heal damage that has occurred...but my primary role is one no other "healer" can fill: I can prevent around 10-12k worth of damage from ever occurring in the first place....on some damage spike bosses that hit for 20-40k, this is the difference between tank death/wipe and success....so sometimes prayer of healing, flash heal, and penance (penance is the smallest divine aegis shield proc, but most reliable) are not heal spells, but divine aegis/inspiration procs, not heals....think of it as casting 2 shields, pw:s and divine aegis/inspiration....this might be confusing, but its how disc works...sometimes we're about making bad things not happen, other times we're about healing when bad things have happened, but we're better suited and uniquely suited to making them not happen...

In some runs, I make sure both my tanks are in the same group so my prayer of healing can crit on both...in others, I use penance or flash heal to proc divine aegis instead

on "overhealing"....as a disc priest, my primary contribution that no other healer can match is damage mitigation, and if I have to "overheal" to do it, then I'm going to do it....if a paly healer was to say that he wasn't using beacon of light because he was afraid of over healing, we'd all bonk him on the noggin...over healing is only bad for meter chasers....for skilled players, over healing is simply a necessary risk or evil...

so, when I'm running with my uber paly healer friend, there are certain times when I'm the "seam" healer, meaning one fight I focus on tanks more because raid is safe and tanks are getting spike dmg, and the next fight I focus on raid because tank dmg is fairly even and raid is getting hit a lot....sometimes, again, like the koralon fight, I have to vary this during the fight...since you use that as an example, go with it....dbm says meteor fist is being cast...shield tanks , and proc a divine aegis with flash heal, and renew and pom them....when he does his fire breath thing on the raid, dbm warns me, and I switch, shielding cloth and heals and then prayer of healing to proc divine aegis again on raid instead....

another note on overhealing....when I ran holy, this was an important stat to me because I ran oom constantly....if overhealing=oom, then yes, change ur strategy...but frankly, if I have mana at the end of a fight and people died, then my job as major damage preventor went undone, and that's never OK....as a disc pr, I end a fight with mana, so I just don't worry about overheals, but I don't chase meters, either....if a RL is to stupid to know how disc pr works, then I don't need to be working with them (or if they're kool, i'll share the logs that help them see what I did).

what i'm looking forward to is the time when my guild only takes two healers into toc10...because if we take the paly and my disc pr, its going to rock....we'd be missing the awesome drood rolling hots and such, but I think disc pr/paly is an amazing combo after working with this paly some....I also think that about some drood and shammys I've worked with, so don't get ur undies in a bnch, but paly/disc can both do amazing things when they share a brain...

Coro · #8 11-01-2009, 10:14 AM

So, we know that you are not normally *needed* to heal the tank except here and there, and only like to react. We know that pally is doing an amazing job keeping the tank alive (generally). We know that you are dual spec holy / discp.

I would recommend to go holy. If your pally needs help with your quick reaction, you can just do a quick CoH then a flash heal (assuming high crit), and ur tanks will be back to full. This will allow you to not be sitting around doing nothing, and helping out the rest of the raid with heals.

Now, if your current raid healer isn't having problems keeping the raid up (generally), and your pally is keeping the tanks up (generally), then you can probably go dps (shadow), or have the other raid healer dps, and you pick up raid heals. More dps is never a bad thing, and always better then a healer sitting around trying to find a mole to whack.

**holyjebus** · #9 11-01-2009, 08:03 PM

is there a lul on ur tank, shield the raid no cast time so if all of a sudden ur tank gets hit pennence go on :P

Nicki · #10 11-01-2009, 08:12 PM

Source: Coro
So, we know that you are not normally *needed* to heal the tank except here and there, and only like to react. We know that pally is doing an amazing job keeping the tank alive (generally). We know that you are dual spec holy / discp.

I would recommend to go holy. If your pally needs help with your quick reaction, you can just do a quick CoH then a flash heal (assuming high crit), and ur tanks will be back to full. This will allow you to not be sitting around doing nothing, and helping out the rest of the raid with heals.

Now, if your current raid healer isn't having problems keeping the raid up (generally), and your pally is keeping the tanks up (generally), then you can probably go dps (shadow), or have the other raid healer dps, and you pick up raid heals. More dps is never a bad thing, and always better then a healer sitting around trying to find a mole to whack.

Nothing wrong with just staying disc in 10 mans I have no issues raid healing (as in its not hard and people dont die because i have shields on them!) and can still chip in on tank healing very effectively when needed.

**Maèl** · #11 11-02-2009, 04:04 AM

If you get bored healing the tank do shield the raid. That'll keep you occupied and OOM it there is no raid damage whatsoever. And don't forget to throw the odd SW:P on stuff.

You are there not to heal but to prevent damage. If you only stick to your assigned target the you are doing it wrong. Jus tremeber: when you are assigned to heal one tank, keep Grace stacked up on him. No direct heals on the raid for you, matey. Binding heal, Prayer of Healing, Prayer of Mending are OK, tho.

If there is ABSOLUTELY nothing to do for you then pop a Hymn of Hope and tell your raid leader that you are one healer too many. Most healers can respec to a dps role.

Ollin · #12 11-02-2009, 11:30 AM

Source: sangredios
I take it from your achievements that you are doing ulduar and totc 10's, if you bring both a pala and a priest to tank heal you are running with one healer to many.

If this is true, change you setup to be two raid healers and one tank healer, where the raid healers keep and eye on the tank and help out when needed.

This.

10-s need 1 tank healer and 1-2 raid healers unless your tank is in naxx gear.

You've got one tank healer too many, and the pally is king. Go holy unless the pally is taking a day off and raid heal.

Nicki · #13 11-02-2009, 03:03 PM

Source: Ollin
This.

10-s need 1 tank healer and 1-2 raid healers unless your tank is in naxx gear.

You've got one tank healer too many, and the pally is king. Go holy unless the pally is taking a day off and raid heal.

Are people oblivious to what I post no need to go holy for 10 mans unless you already have a disc priest in the raid.

Holy paladins ARE overpowered in 10 mans and maybe even 25 man heroics...Ive had a holy paladin solo heal freya+3 in uld 10 and aurirya due to untimely deaths on my part.

Disc however like i said 2 posts up has no issues raid healing i vastly prefer it to playing holy and I feel people are alot safer.

**sangredios** · #14 11-02-2009, 10:57 PM

If you read backpacky's post, he says he is using holy for raid healing and disc for tank healing.

Uffda · #15 11-04-2009, 06:52 AM

My perspective as a Holy Paladin. Most raids I off heal with a Disc Priest on the tanks. We have been healing together for along time now and developed a level of trust on what we each are doing. The synergy is that if we are both doing our jobs correctly then we are both working less hard. It hasnt been said enough how huge of a difference keeping shields up is and how much it smooths out the damage that is incoming.

You may feel like you arent doing alot simply because it is harder to gauge yourself. I can tell you though if you are getting bored and not shielding then your Paladin partner is likely turning there healing up a notch to compensate for the extra damage coming in which in turn likely makes you feel even more useless. Months ago when our priest went disc this was the issue we had for several months until they began to trust what there new role was, and that is prevention.

Disc priests, regardless of if they are on the raid or the tank make every other healer in the raid better and more efficient in my opinion.

Coro · #16 11-05-2009, 05:34 PM

Source: Nicki
Are people oblivious to what I post no need to go holy for 10 mans unless you already have a disc priest in the raid.

Holy paladins ARE overpowered in 10 mans and maybe even 25 man heroics...Ive had a holy paladin solo heal freya+3 in uld 10 and aurirya due to untimely deaths on my part.

Disc however like i said 2 posts up has no issues raid healing i vastly prefer it to playing holy and I feel people are alot safer.

The problem isn't that were not ignoring what you are advising, what we are advising is based upon what the original poster said, that he prefers to raid heal as holy and tank heal as discipline. You said yourself that he should be raid healing, you were just argueing that discp is a vital raid heal (which it is), but the OP stated that he prefers to raid heal as holy, he's just trying to figure out what to do when he is assigned to heal a tank.

Goomba · #17 11-06-2009, 01:51 PM

Source: Uffda
My perspective as a Holy Paladin. Most raids I off heal with a Disc Priest on the tanks. We have been healing together for along time now and developed a level of trust on what we each are doing. The synergy is that if we are both doing our jobs correctly then we are both working less hard. It hasnt been said enough how huge of a difference keeping shields up is and how much it smooths out the damage that is incoming.

You may feel like you arent doing alot simply because it is harder to gauge yourself. I can tell you though if you are getting bored and not shielding then your Paladin partner is likely turning there healing up a notch to compensate for the extra damage coming in which in turn likely makes you feel even more useless. Months ago when our priest went disc this was the issue we had for several months until they began to trust what there new role was, and that is prevention.

Disc priests, regardless of if they are on the raid or the tank make every other healer in the raid better and more efficient in my opinion.

I really have to second this....in fact, I'm pushing to have our 2heal team for toc10 speed runs be holy paly/disc pr....I just think this team has insane synergy and flexibility....

**sangredios** · #18 11-08-2009, 09:03 AM

Source: Goomba
I really have to second this....in fact, I'm pushing to have our 2heal team for toc10 speed runs be holy paly/disc pr....I just think this team has insane synergy and flexibility....

For a two healer setup i would not advice taking two priests, because one will be able to bring all the buff's of the priest class. When it comes to healing the holy/disc setup is good, but it's not superior to other tank/raid healing setup.

totc can be tricky to do with a two healer setup, you can't have one healer dying early in the fight. Bring two healers that knows the fight is just as important as bringing the right buffs, and that can support the idea of bringing two priests

Nicki · #19 11-08-2009, 03:48 PM

Source: sangredios
For a two healer setup i would not advice taking two priests, because one will be able to bring all the buff's of the priest class. When it comes to healing the holy/disc setup is good, but it's not superior to other tank/raid healing setup.

totc can be tricky to do with a two healer setup, you can't have one healer dying early in the fight. Bring two healers that knows the fight is just as important as bringing the right buffs, and that can support the idea of bringing two priests

He never said 2 priests he said holy pala and disc priest which is perfectly doable even on heroic aslong as the players are very skilled and the group dps is very good.

2 priests is probably as weak as bringing 2 shaman healers...Even 2 paladin healers would likely be more able to get past anub 10 heroic than 2 priests.

**sangredios** · #20 11-08-2009, 04:47 PM

guess i read the post alittle to fast, and i agree that pala/priest is a good setup.