[Satorri]

Furi, you miss the point. The skill is not at all deficient, it is the priests and the rest of their raiders who don't know how to use it. You don't have to like it, or take it, or teach people to use it. But when priests in the community bash it, then I get my hackles up.

Nicki, your statements are about as ignorant as can be helped. It's easy to click through charges if you don't know how to use it but think you should (which is currently a non-existent condition, people either don't know it exists or know how to use it). The heal is significantly larger than a health stone, it ticks 3 times each for about the size of the health stone. You give up 1 talent point to get it, tell me what you're getting instead that's such a superior value? Holy Reach? Desperate Prayer?

And again, Furi, don't confuse your inability to use or provide it, with the value of the skill. You don't like it, don't take it, but don't assume that makes it somehow worthless.

[morelore]

It's not *hard* to do it, but why should I? It's a loss of DPS. Encounters are designed such that you're able to heal without it. I'll use a lightwell in any encounter where I'd bandage, but I can't and won't use it the way I use a healthstone or a healing potion.

It's not about epeening the DPS meters. It's about me doing my job (DPS) and you doing your job (raid healing). You have a poor mechanic that requires me to sacrifice my performance to help yours. Thankfully you have lots of other raid healing tools, so it's not that much of a problem.

The point of DPS in a raid is not to take the least damage possible. It's to do the most DPS possible. This includes staying alive, so you don't want to take unnecessary damage, but if you've got the healers and the healers have the mana then there's no reason not to take extra damage if means you can do more DPS. Back in the molten core days I'd get a pocket healer and melee on Shazzrah. Same deal here. Raiding is about working together, and that includes making the decision to trade raid damage for more DPS.

If lightwell didn't require me to find the lightwell, target it, and then swap back (and if you think that the same, in a tight mellee group, as using raid frames to heal people you're quite mistaken) I'd use it more. If it was something I could macro, so I only had to be near the lightwell and then could use it proactively, I'd use it more.

Maybe if it it applied a buff to nearby people, removing the buff applies the HOT. That just means I need to be aware if I have the buff, click it off manually or with a macro (something I can do without resetting my swing timer or losing DPS).

[Furi]

I don't like it, I don't take it, and I'm not saying Lightwell is worthless; Lightwell is a wonderful raid marker.

My point is that if the developers want priests to use Lightwell, and in turn encourage players to use a spell with such an unusual and unique mechanic (there is no other spell, ability, or raid/5-man encounter with a mechanic like Lightwell's), then Lightwell should be a baseline spell that is vastly improved through talents.

As it is now, the efficacy of Lightwell is entirely dependent on a raid/party member being aware and familiar with a spell that is unique and whose mechanics are absent when running with other healers.

While the skill itself may not be entirely deficient, its implementation in the game is.

[Muffin Man]

I agree with GC's statements. Everything they've been doing in raid encounters was to make DPS take more responsibility for things other than just dps-ing and ignoring everything else. Tail swipes, fire, voidzones, clicking Mag's cubes, passing Vashj's core, ect.

He's right that dps will take healthstones and I've been in raids where they have to be *reminded* to use it.

During a high movement fight there's plenty of time that dps is not doing anything and can easily click a lightwell.

Throw a lightwell on Kologorn and the OT can prehot himself while he positions himself to grab rubble. Someone could even use it while running from eye beams (unlikely).

You can throw a lightwell on Mimiron's cylinder during the P1 -> P2 transition and melee prehots themselves when he activates.

Lightwell behind iceblocks on Sapph? During Hodir's flash freeze (although I doubt you would need it then)? 4 Horseman while swapping in the back? Malygos after vortex while the tank repositions/reestablishes aggro?

Lightwell isn't supposed to an i-win button but it's supposed to be a tool with specific uses and when people (healers and dps) completely dismiss it because it can't be used all the time... well they're just expecting too much or don't know when this spell can be used.

There have been fights in the past where the raid damage was so high that dps was encouraged to run out and bandage (Maiden early on was one) when things got hairy. I can't think of a WotLK encounter like that and that's probably why raiders don't like using lightwell since raid demands have changed. That's on Blizzard, but it doesn't mean you can't still find a use for lightwell that costs nothing other than priest mana.

Disclaimer: not a priest so my examples may not be great but I've seen priest place lightwells on fights where it could be used without my dps suffering when I've been dps and there have been other times when I'm sitting around scratching myself (Tauren) thinking if there was a lightwell here I may as well click it (especially Saph iceblocks).

[Insahnity]

As a priest, I subscribe to the "it's not me, I just can't train PuGs to use it (other than warlocks)" Therefore, why take a talent which I would love to use but would be ignored?

I agreem making it baseline would help its popularity. Another idea would be to make it a "bomb". Player's who click on it will make it 'splode, consuming a charge, healing everybody within X yards (or a bouncing holy bolt, like Zelik or a chain heal). That way, it's still a healer independant heal, but it does benefit more than one person.

As for those people who feel the need to "Focus only on DPS above all other duties", you are only a hair above epeen hounds. You realize it's not about you, but you fail to realize that there is more to encounter than DPS, barring specific DPS races. I also call out mages/boomkins who top the charts but wipe the raid because they didn't decurse, spriests/paladins who don't dispel magic, etc. Even more insidious are shamans who don't purge, mages who don't spell steal except when its a dps buff or priests who don't mass dispel, and so on, because it is a small loss on DPS, but a huge benefit (Sunwell for mass dispell of gas effects, Purge/spell steal armors, etc.).

At the end of the day, survive the encounter first, THEN worry about DPS. Lightwell is an awesome tool to do that, but the DPS just don't use the tools they are given.

[morelore]

Source: Insahnity As for those people who feel the need to "Focus only on DPS above all other duties", you are only a hair above epeen hounds. You realize it's not about you, but you fail to realize that there is more to encounter than DPS, barring specific DPS races. I also call out mages/boomkins who top the charts but wipe the raid because they didn't decurse, spriests/paladins who don't dispel magic, etc. Even more insidious are shamans who don't purge, mages who don't spell steal except when its a dps buff or priests who don't mass dispel, and so on, because it is a small loss on DPS, but a huge benefit (Sunwell for mass dispell of gas effects, Purge/spell steal armors, etc.).

Sorry, if you're going to say this you should address what people actually *say*, not a straw man that you've invented. The job of a DPS is to maximize DPS. That can, but does not necessarily, include healing themselves. The job of healers includes healing the raid. The reason why you heal the raid is because without the DPS the boss doesn't die. Your raids DPS will be better if you directly heal them instead of making them heal themselves. Choosing not to do this just so you can play with a cool talent makes *you* the one who's failing, not your DPS.

If, on the other hand, they could have used a lightwell, and didn't, and you were busy with other legitimate raid tasks like healing a tank or other DPS (texting your girlfriend doesn't count) and they die anyway, then of course they are in the wrong. But putting down the lightwell and figuring that means you don't need to do anything except tank healing is just you playing sloppy. DPS has every right to expect direct healing.

[Ion]

Source: Insahnity I agreem making it baseline would help its popularity. Another idea would be to make it a "bomb". Player's who click on it will make it 'splode, consuming a charge, healing everybody within X yards (or a bouncing holy bolt, like Zelik or a chain heal). That way, it's still a healer independant heal, but it does benefit more than one person.

Making it baseline would at least give it more visibility. But it'd have to be nerfed in order to do so.

I do notice that the lightwells in the new dungeon are more like "light pumps" that lob out heals to people near to it rather than the annoying mechanic of priest's lightwells.

Source: Insahnity As for those people who feel the need to "Focus only on DPS above all other duties", you are only a hair above epeen hounds. You realize it's not about you, but you fail to realize that there is more to encounter than DPS, barring specific DPS races. I also call out mages/boomkins who top the charts but wipe the raid because they didn't decurse, spriests/paladins who don't dispel magic, etc. Even more insidious are shamans who don't purge, mages who don't spell steal except when its a dps buff or priests who don't mass dispel, and so on, because it is a small loss on DPS, but a huge benefit (Sunwell for mass dispell of gas effects, Purge/spell steal armors, etc.). At the end of the day, survive the encounter first, THEN worry about DPS. Lightwell is an awesome tool to do that, but the DPS just don't use the tools they are given.

As a resto shaman, I couldn't agree more. When I'm the only one purging anything or decursing anything I get pretty damn annoyed.

Our mage is fantastic about decursing and still does amazing dps. He and I pugged a 25 sarth (neither of us has ever gotten an IoTDS) and we just "let everyone else decurse" on the trash packs...5 minutes later we had to decurse the entire raid because NOBODY ELSE bothered...they just tunnel-vision-dps'd the mobs and couldn't seem to make the connection between the curse and the fact that it wasn't dying.

And whenever I'm in naxx on anything other than my shaman I NEVER see anyone purge the ... whatever that buff that basically makes those mobs in military immune to damage for a minute is off until told to purge at least 3 times. It's not hard, doubly so if you're actually DPSing the damn thing...elemental and enhancement shaman who don't purge earn a special place in hell, I hope.

[morelore]

Is this the part where I get to talk about the naxx run where the 5 healers couldn't manage to heal the patch tanks and kept blaming it on DPS running in to soon? Maybe we should have had a lightwell.

[Clyde]

And you have to understand where some of the "e-peen" pressure comes from: Loot Council raids. If you drop a Lightwell, and I click it, and someone that doesn't click it gets your heals (since I don't need them), he has an edge on the meters above me. That edge might mean he is "more valuable to the raid" than I am.

Please don't dismiss this concern. DPS members feel significant pressure from the raid to produce as much DPS as they can. It's the same pressure that Healers face in making sure nobody dies, or that Tanks feel in generating threat and picking up adds.

Certainly there are times when use of a Lightwell would not produce a negative impact. Behind Iceblocks on Saph is an excellent thought. But retargeting a Lightwell during a phase when you should be maximizing DPS burn is really problematic... many DPS classes have exacting rotations and damage drops precipitously if you don't adhere to them. Others have responsibility for maintaining debuffs, etc. Bliz is trying very hard to produce encounters that stretch the DPS' ability to maintain situational awareness, while they track abilities coming off cooldown, etc.

Lightwell is an interesting ability, one that's kinda cool and very unique. But it adds another level of complexity. Now, it's not a *big* level, don't get me wrong. But on encounters where you are straining to progress, you need everything you have. And on encounters where you are *not* straining it's probably not needed.

[Muffin Man]

If you like to throw in contrived extreme situations or random anecdotal evidence that's fine. But hardly productive. You don't have to be so offended when people use it either. But it's pretty common in pugs where no one decurses if the healers aren't doing it.

No one on the pro-lightwell side is arguing that it should replace raid healing. Also, dps has responsibilities other than dps-ing. Not pulling aggro and not dying to stupid stuff have long been accepted areas of responsibility for them.

Not dying to stupid stuff of course is subjective and that's probably the problem here.

Whenever there's a utility task to be done it's almost always given to the dps (so their dps isn't that necessary is it?). No one asks healing priests to mind control adds in Naxx. No one asks tanks to man Razorscale's turrets. Doing so is a personal dps loss, but you know what? That's acceptable in the context of the encounter.

GC is arguing that dps doing their part to help out healing should be included in dps' responsibility. I think it's a negative feedback loop where dps don't accept it, so healers don't bother sharing it via lightwell (on appropriate encounters) and new dps are never exposed to the possibility.

@Clyde I can see your point, dps meters are regularly flashed and often times that's the only way dps performance is measured even as we've become better at judging healers and tanks. But I'd still maintain that there are appropriate situations where lightwell can be used. It's not something that should be used on every fight... Vezax would be a pretty odd choice I think.

[veneretio]

Source: Furi While the skill itself may not be entirely deficient, its implementation in the game is.

Because something isn't easy to use effectively does not make it ineffective.

[orcstar]

More then anything, wotlk has become a dps race on most fights instead of survival/outlasting fights.

While in TBC and vanilla even more lightwell would have had it's place, in my opinion in WotLK it has not. To make it viable they should remove the 30% and buff is gone penalty, then on fights where it really mattered it would be good: hodir frozen blows, xt tantrum.

[Ion]

Oooo...it would be good on tantrum or frozen blows ... ish.

You can't really move in tantrum, so if it wasn't RIGHT HERE, it'd be worthless. I guess it'd be good during frozen blows though.

[Insahnity]

Source: morelore Sorry, if you're going to say this you should address what people actually *say*, not a straw man that you've invented. The job of a DPS is to maximize DPS. That can, but does not necessarily, include healing themselves. The job of healers includes healing the raid. The reason why you heal the raid is because without the DPS the boss doesn't die. Your raids DPS will be better if you directly heal them instead of making them heal themselves. Choosing not to do this just so you can play with a cool talent makes *you* the one who's failing, not your DPS. If, on the other hand, they could have used a lightwell, and didn't, and you were busy with other legitimate raid tasks like healing a tank or other DPS (texting your girlfriend doesn't count) and they die anyway, then of course they are in the wrong. But putting down the lightwell and figuring that means you don't need to do anything except tank healing is just you playing sloppy. DPS has every right to expect direct healing.

1) I do not have lightwell. I've been disgusted to not be top 3 healer, still push out 3k+ heals and have half the DPS die. Long gone are TBC days when you could expect healers with insane mana regen to brute force through healing, get with the present (and for goodness sake, roll a holy priest, utilize brain THEN engage post).

GC's Words
The basic root of the problem is that most dps classes seem unwilling to have to take the time or spatial awareness to make use of the Lightwell, even if it provides great healing. Players will use Health Stones, but Lightwell crosses the line. We’re not entirely happy with that phenomenon in the game as a whole. We don’t like that dps characters focus on dps at the exclusion of even their own survival and just assume that’s the healer’s job

Newsflash: It isn't our job either to save your skin. We help, but it's not our responsibility alone. Nor is it your sole responsiblity to max out DPS (texting your boyfriend does not count).

If you can find something a DEVELOPER said contradiciting this view (not your say so) please post.

I am just *waiting* for developer to design an encounter for people like you. Things like Loatheb or Zul'jin eagle phase come to mind as attempts to challenge healers, but it wasn't nearly hard enough to drive home the point. Sadly, I fear people like you will still blame the healers.

2) Since you clearly are not a holy priest nor have taken the time research the issue, Lightwell is a 31 point holy talent. At 31 points, it pushes it out of every effective non-holy build. Therefore you have a holy priest on your hands. Now Holy Priests generally do the following:
i) Circle of Healing
ii) Flash Heal to keep up 3-Stack-Serendipity, to drop a Prayer of Healing Nuke as needed
iii) Drop Renews like Candy (on everybody, not just the tank)
If you see a tank only heal spell, please point it out (while we ridicule you out of the post). Perhaps you were confusing a holy priest with a disc priest or a holy paladin? Please feel free browse the forums once you have raid healing roles clear.

[Furi]

...many DPS classes have exacting rotations and damage drops precipitously if you don't adhere to them. Others have responsibility for maintaining debuffs, etc. Bliz is trying very hard to produce encounters that stretch the DPS' ability to maintain situational awareness, while they track abilities coming off cooldown, etc.

I agree with this. In addition, Blizz has publicly stated it is taking all classes in the direction of proc-based abilities. This adds another degree to the focus required. It's not the sole cause, but a contributing factor.

Because something isn't easy to use effectively does not make it ineffective.

Ven, Lightwell is ineffective because it is not easy to use effectively. It is not able to accomplish its purpose.

[Anaire]

Personally, I have seen dps/our tank use lightwell a ton. We run with 2 holy priests, one has it specced. Our ranged dps use it in ignis, our tank during tantrum on XT, no one really in IC, kologarn it's placed for the tank/dps but I don't know if it's used there, hodir everyone uses it, thorim everyone before he jumps down, no one in freya, practically no one in mim, tank in vezax, and no one in yogg.

[holyjebus]

i was once a big fan of Lightwell but due to my raid using it and continually informing me that its a waste of a talent point, after reading this i can clearly see that they where wrong and just being down right lazy. i will insure that i teach my raid members how to use it and teach them how benifical it will be. off to re-spec thanks for the info !

[Bluepepper]

This discussion has got me thinking. What if we list specifically, If lightwell is used, where best to place the lightwell?

Suggestions:
IGNIS: if using the strategy posted in the movie here on tankspot, place the lightwell inbetween both water pools in the center of the room. That way when melee dps is moving around radially the lightwell can be easily accessible for them as well as the MT if needed?

XT: Lightwell near the OT, eases up healing on OT when he/she is tanking adds, and allows OT healer to help out with Raid/MT heals if needed?

Those are just some suggestions, but now that I'm thinking about it, Lightwell can be an extremely powerful tool. Lightwell can be an especially wonderful friend for an OT. Paraphrasing Sat, yes, some talents are situational, but it's the skill of the player(s) using this talent (think about it) that can determine the multitude of applications in which it can be used. I think if some solid strats are developed around the use of lightwell it might become more popular as raiding/grouping tool.

[sud]

What if they changed the way it works to be the same as the one used by priestesses in the trial? It just spits out bursts of healing-"beams" apparently at random.
Ofc scaled to player numbers and given some priority in who to heal, wouldn't that work?

[Volador]

Source: sud What if they changed the way it works to be the same as the one used by priestesses in the trial? It just spits out bursts of healing-"beams" apparently at random. Ofc scaled to player numbers and given some priority in who to heal, wouldn't that work?

I just scanned this whole post looking for this recommendation. This would alleviate the issue in lightwells completely. As far as actual functionality (where the heal goes), Ancestral Awakening - Spell - World of Warcraft is a start of good functionality for it. It wouldn't be so overpowered as to save your raid from a wipe, but it might give you that extra second or 3 to cast a heal on that raider that is about to die.