[Manßearpig]

From my understanding of the threat values for FFF, They are pretty close in average threat.

FFF = (36 + 638 + damage done) * stance (my avg from a recent wws was 981)

Mangle = Damage done * stance (my avg from a recent wws was 1616)

Your argument is valid and your rotation would be slightly higher threat. The only concern i have is Mangle and FFF cooldowns coinciding every couple of rotations.

My choice was mainly based on needing the points for Feral Aggression.

[Darksend]

Once you get the glyph from general vezaxx imp mangle is very nice, it has a TERRIBLE proc rate compared to idol of terror.

[Manßearpig]

Do you have any procwatch data on that idol? Be interested to know how good it is.

[Darksend]

no, but i do have some links

Of Teeth and Claws: Should Improved Mangle be in a tanking spec?

Omen of Clarity: Go for improved Mangle!

[Darksend]

Just did my own (VERY VERY) basic tests on Idol of the Corruptor - Item - World of Warcraft using target dummies.

Test 1: Mangle-Cat

-100% proc
-no internal

Test 2: Mangle-Bear

-Not 100% proc rate
-No internal

To test bear I just mangled and auto-attacked the target dummy. Using mangle every 4.5 seconds I did see it proc on consecutive mangles 4.5 seconds apart. This was not conclusive however. After seeing that it could proc on consecutive mangles I then hit berserk (facing in a way that ensured mangle only hit 1 dummy) and on the first 3 consecutive mangles under berserk it refreshed the duration. For the remainer of the berserk however I did not recieve any additional procs and the buff fell off. This is very disturbing.

Do not be alarmed, as we all know idol of terror did not have a 100% bear proc either and there was suffiecent downtime with it to ensure that even with only about a 60% proc the new idol will definatly be better. For one it is 2.4x as much agi, for two is is two seconds longer.


I will be updating the talents and the builds sometime in the next week ulduar is keeping me very busy

[Jegger]

Why are you using Master Shapeshifter instead of King of the Jungle?
The King of the Jungle talent adds .833% damage Every 60 seconds while Master Shapeshifter only adds .8%.
Also, on fights that require tank rotation or fights where u dont get to hit the target 100% of the time (Malygos for example) you get more then .833% of damage per point of King of the Jungle, as you can time those enrages when it's actually your turn to tank. The fights will never last full minutes either. They usually last x.5 minutes on average, so the shorter the fight the more benefit you get from KoTJ.
Don't see a reason why you shouldnt get those IW either, because you wont always have a warrior/dk/paladin to do that slowing effect for you (if you are the one tanking in Thorim gauntlet).
Berserking is somewhat useless aswell, because you only get ~7 mangles at the cost of other abilities (10 gcds during the 15 second duration, where you'd get 3 of the mangles even without berserking and you also need to refresh that lacerate stack somewhere in the middle).
My build of choice would be:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
And that Challanging roar glyph is not a must have imo. I cant remember the last time i used the skill and it's not a propper taunt anyway.

[Darksend]

YOU CANNOT use enrage against ulduar bosses. YOU CANNOT afford the armor reduction.

KOTJ is worthless for tanking.

Also, you can never get more than 8.333333333% increase from KOTJ, only less. you get 8.333 if you hit it immediatly every single time it comes off cooldown

[Jegger]

Enrage only reduces damage mitigation from armor by ~4%, which is not that much of a loss and can be easily compensated by using Barkskin.
As for that .833% threat increase. It will get higher then that on a fight that lasts for 5:10 mins as you can use the enrage 6 times during it. And on fights with tank rotation you can easily disregard half of your threat during the time that you arent actually tanking the boss, so you can get up to 1.6% more threat per talent point if the rotation lasts for 30 secs per tank.

[Manßearpig]

Source: Jegger Enrage only reduces damage mitigation from armor by ~4%, which is not that much of a loss and can be easily compensated by using Barkskin. As for that .833% threat increase. It will get higher then that on a fight that lasts for 5:10 mins as you can use the enrage 6 times during it. And on fights with tank rotation you can easily disregard half of your threat during the time that you arent actually tanking the boss, so you can get up to 1.6% more threat per talent point if the rotation lasts for 30 secs per tank.

This is like saying its ok to enchant our tanking staff with berserker because its only 5%.

It is simply not a valid way to value tanking talents.

[kedicik]

soz for being too lazy to read all the posts, maybe this has already been explained but, my question is, what is the point of taking master shapeshifter in the 25man raid build (Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft) where you can spend those points in feral instinct for a better swipe and improved lotp and maybe even for berserk ?

[Darksend]

Source: kedicik soz for being too lazy to read all the posts, maybe this has already been explained but, my question is, what is the point of taking master shapeshifter in the 25man raid build (Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft) where you can spend those points in feral instinct for a better swipe and improved lotp and maybe even for berserk ?

MSS is more threat than imp mangle. There are several posts around the blogging community right now with pages of math to support this.

That said that build is so out of date. It was made before lk even went live. I have had imp LOTP in every single build I have used since LK came out and will never not have it again.

I raid ulduar 8 days a week pushing hard modes so i have had very little time to update the OP. Look for an update sometime ni the next few weeks.

[WastedSpace]

Why not have all of them. I use MSS, Imp Mangle, and KOTJ.

Anything that generates more threat is needed. Only problem is when you have that switching boss where Druid has no rage when time to taunt and we can't get them off the other because we can't hit hard enough to take aggro off them till we have aggro.

[lucero]

Source: Darksend I raid ulduar 8 days a week

lulz @ 8 days/week.






Yes, I get the joke.

[kedicik]

from time to time i am tanking ulduar too (normal mostly) and threat has been a problem once or twice the most...

well anyway i was just curious if there was something i am missing with mss, thx for sparing time from the 25/8 raiding schedule ^^

[Druid4life]

I agree with Darksend that rend and tear is not worth it not at all for tanking swipe is a better take maybe if i dual speced to two tank build i would take one but i dont think many druids are going to do that most will probably in embrace the role as the ultimate off tank this is my build Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

[jere]

Source: Darksend MSS is more threat than imp mangle. There are several posts around the blogging community right now with pages of math to support this.

Out of curiosity, is MSS more threat than imp mangle overall or per talent point (or both)? It pretty much costs 5 points to get MSS and 3 for imp Mangle based on normal talent tree point allocation, so I was curious as to which comparison was done.

[Rhoc]

i noticed in both your cat dps spec you took the 'last stand' talent and not berserk, berserk is mandatory for any dps druid, and last stand does 0 for your dps.

[Darksend]

Source: Rhoc i noticed in both your cat dps spec you took the 'last stand' talent and not berserk, berserk is mandatory for any dps druid, and last stand does 0 for your dps.

that would be because of the addition of primal gore, those calculators were made pre 3.1 and as such when wowhead patched its calculators it shifted all the points (notice there is no Imp MOTW and still 5/5 furor)

I plan on updating the guide soon (i started working on it this week during maintenance only to have my web browser crash just as I finished and it did not save so I lost everything)

[lucero]

Source: jere Out of curiosity, is MSS more threat than imp mangle overall or per talent point (or both)? It pretty much costs 5 points to get MSS and 3 for imp Mangle based on normal talent tree point allocation, so I was curious as to which comparison was done.

No matter how the comparison was done I think post 3.1 the 3 needed to make ImpM worthwhile are better spent elsewhere. I feel like at lvl 70 there were far fewer working feral tank builds, and I really like the diversity available in builds now (particularly on the resto tree portion of the feral build). Heck I'm still trying to figure out the best one, but some things I just think aren't worth it since 3.1, ImpM being the prime example.

[Darksend]

Source: lucero No matter how the comparison was done I think post 3.1 the 3 needed to make ImpM worthwhile are better spent elsewhere. I feel like at lvl 70 there were far fewer working feral tank builds, and I really like the diversity available in builds now (particularly on the resto tree portion of the feral build). Heck I'm still trying to figure out the best one, but some things I just think aren't worth it since 3.1, ImpM being the prime example.

Next time try to use correct talents. ImpM is a 2 point talent that increases all stats by 1% per point.