[Surfsoldier]

This is a great post, Wroar, thanks for taking the time! Just wanted to say that firstly.

Secondly, I have a few questions and issues to bring up, wouldn't mind some feed back. Firstly, the whole discussion about the Puncture and Devastate spam, I'm not sure I can really agree whole heartedly on this one. The reason is, I use Dev in my tank rotation for 2 reasons. Firstly, I'm glyphed for it (Glyph of Sunder Armor) which effectively lets me sunder 2 targets helping for even greater multi-tanking. Also, Dev. is one of the components for activating SaB, so I don't see why NOT getting Dev/Puncture and NOT using it often is worth while. Also, about the Def. Cap. Currently, I'm at 526 Def Rating and I'm above 5% crit. Did mobs get a crit % buff? In the past it has always been to be above 5% to avoid neing crit.

Also I'd like you to keep in mind that I am a relatively fresh 80 and am still doing instancing, so my build is still really heavy Protection and used for AOE tanking (5/8/58).

Thanks!

[Wroar]

Surfsoldier, thanks for the compliment. The crit rate against bosses has always been the same. Any mob of the same level as you has a 5% crit chance against you. Every time a mob goes up one level, they gain 0.2% crit against you. That means that lvl 83 mobs, which is the level bosses are in Instances, Heroics, Raids, everywhere, means they have a 5.6% crit chance against you. That's why you need 540 Defense.

As for Dev spam, it's a simple fact that spamming Dev and using SaB whenever it's up doesn't give more threat than using the other threat abilities instead, using Dev whenever everything else is on cd and using SaB whenever it's up. I realise this is a very simple answer to your question and I'm sorry for that, but I've not done the research to prove this and it's way too complicated for me to pull out of my sleeve now. I suggest you check out some theorycrafting topics on forums such as these or Elitist Jerks, where people do create the maths needed for it.

[Shortypop]

Oooh I wasn't very clear. I'm thinking of an impale spec and therefore might be missing points in imp revenge. I remember some conversations about the increase damage from imp revenge only affecting part of the damage from revenge or something and was wondering if this was still the case.

[Romulos]

Very informative, it dispelled the vast majority of questions I had about WotLK tanking.

One question I had regarding your build, was your choice not to take Concussion Blow. Other than the fact that I use this move 10+ time in every heroic I go into and at least in TBC endgame trash were often vulnerable to it (as an ohshit button), you suggest using it in your guide as a threat tool. I'm assuming you're using this build as a solo mob boss-tanking build only, so as you said don't need the threat. Should I still have Conc. in my all-purpose?

[holmedog]

The problem I'm still having with the impale spec is you need a slow one hander (impale is based off of weapon damage).

I *THINK* that if you are running the lvl 80 equivalent of the HHM's blade, with an impale build, devestate WOULD be better than the fast heroic strikes.

[Wroar]

Shorty, even in an Impale spec you can still get Imp Revenge, like I have, and I wouldn't go without Imp Rev. Rev is too important an ability in WotLK. As far as I know, Imp Rev damage increase works for all aspects of the attack too.

Romulos, my decisions not to get Conc Blow is mainly a personal one. I found that I never had time to press the button while still using all the other cd's we have and keeping 5 Devastate stacks on, and I don't PvP much. For an all-purpose build, I'd say take Conc Blow. It's real handy in PvP, soloing, normal and Heroic instances and even in raids, if you use it. Which I dont in my playstyle ^^

Holmedog, Impale has nothing to do with slow or fast weapons. Impale has to do with crits, both ability and weapon crits. Slow weapons that crit with Impale won't do more dmg then fast weapons critting, on average. I think you might be confusing Impale with Rend or Deep Wounds, which indeed depend on weapon dmg and are therefore not good for tanking. Devastate's threat does go up a bit with a slow weapon, but not enough to make up for the loss of HS spamming, even if you used Rend and Deep Wounds too. Again, that math has been done elsewhere on either these forums or Elitist Jerks, and I'm just repeating the results.

[holmedog]

You're right. I did the research after posting and found that heroic strikes was still better in an unlimited rage scenario, something we see a lot more lately. Also, it saves 2 talent points (deep wounds) that really need to be somewhere else.

[var2ezis]

The one thing i notice no one mentioning is the bonus of the taunt effect on vigilance. Ill give an example 2 specific example where i find this useful.

Heroic Hall of Stones escort quest. Mobs come faster then every 6 sec so TC is down, and since you never leave combat your healer will tend to grab agro of the new mobs because of the hots or a heal the moment they run into range. Having vigilance on the healer means
1.) i get 10% threat of that heal he casted.
2.) i can taunt 1 mob right off the bat, mocking blow the other mob, and once the 3rd one hits the healer taunts back up and i can retaunt again, now having all 3 mobs on me and save TC for the next wave coming in.

Hall of Lightning (2nd boss i think the anvil guy). The golems randomly target and you cant hold threat for to long. Throw vigilance on the healer any time one of the golems hits the healer taunt, sure you cant hold agro but u can keep it from constantly attacking your healer.

For 1 point (well 2 since alot of the specs posted here dont even take conc blow) i really think its worth losing 2% crit. I dont see it as additional threat so i dont lose agro i see it more of a keep the squishy alive ability. I havent done naxx or anything more then heroics, if i find that in raids there arent many encounters where mass amount of mobs pour through doors or mobs will randomly drop agro and target others then i most likely will respec back to 4 points in cruelty.

Does anyone else see this as useful or am i kinda just out there in my train of thought?

[Síhrtogg]

2/5 demoralizing shout used to be the capped AP debuff for a 73 boss in TBC (no CoR). Is this still the case with lvl83 bosses?

There's no need to account for Curse of Recklessness in Wrath, because it doesn't stack with (Improved) Faerie Fire.

Also, would it be more efficient use of talent points to let our druid spec in demoralizing roar instead? ie. Is there enough room in the feral druid tank spec to allow for these 2 (or more?) points?

[Kazeyonoma]

we're gonna try to get some testing done on the boss AP stuff.

[Porcini]

Source: Síhrtogg Also, would it be more efficient use of talent points to let our druid spec in demoralizing roar instead?

Instead of a prot or dps warrior? We've always insisted that dps warriors take this talent.

[Síhrtogg]

Source: Porcini Instead of a prot or dps warrior? We've always insisted that dps warriors take this talent.

I agree with you that a dps warrior is in the best position to pick up the the talent. I unfortunately don't have the luxury of a spot for a DPS warrior in my guild, so it's either me or the druid.

[Stegho]

I'm going to have to be a naysayer on the very idea of an impale spec. I'm truly shocked that the community is taking this wholesale.

-We are not DPS. Yes, we do more damage than we ever have before. That does not mean it is, or ever will be, the responsibility of a tank to maximize damage. It is the responsibility of the tank to minimize INCOMING damage.

-A build without concussive blow is foolish. It's a mainstay of our rotation now.

-A build without vigilance is the build of an overconfident tank. Threat is no longer an issue in a tank and spank. This is a fact. However, vigilance shines in situations where threat is dropped, or adds are released, or the picking up of a boss must be instantaneous. Do the right thing and take vigilance. Learning to use it on the right person in the right situation is a fun little mini-game.

-Devastate is not unimportant in any way, shape, or form. The sundering of mobs may be the very last reason a warrior tank is preferable to any other type of tank. Dev spam may have gone the way of the condor, but it is still a cornerstone of your tanking rotation.

-Unless you happen to have the DPS warrior or warlock specced into it, Imp Demo will always be more useful than impale.

-There is no need to take imp heroic strike. Assuming you take puncture, you will always have rage in situations that call for HS. Just taking this to get to impale, and ignoring your top priority (survivability) is, well, ignoring your top priority.

-There is no need to take imp charge, as you do not need this rage.

-There is no need to take anger management, as you do not need this rage.

-There is no need to take impale, as there is no need for this threat. You are already vastly ahead of your dps as the author stated.

"There shouldn’t be any need to take 10% threat off of anyone in the raid, since nobody should come close to a good tank."

As such, there should be no reason to waste a slew of talent points in getting to impale. Vigilance is far more valuable in the only situations that matter; threat changes.


I understand that this article is simply a perspective on tanking, but many people are taking this perspective as gospel as it appears on Tankspot. And I think it does the community a disservice to not point out that the perspective is inherently flawed.

[Gamca]

: Stegho >

- i agree about:
== tank should 1stly focus on helping his team to take as less dmg as he can, while having such threat not to limit any dps in raid
- i disagree about:
== your criticism to build .. you tell.. there is no need to take.. there is no need to take... Maybe there isn't.. but look at this build and tell me where else to spend to more catch up with my first tank rule i wrote above.. to help team.. more survavibility.
prot tree: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Unfortunately now.. i dont see any suitable untaken talents in prot tree..
- Puncture ? I don't need that.. i have chosen to hold my aggro with hero strike spam preferably. (anyway there is no doubt about starting with 5 sunders and then you just hold it on a target.. there is alway rage for devastate in 30 secs.. hh no problem)
- spell reflection ? cmon.. no way.. like 10% of 25 man raiding this may help
- imp. sh wall ? maybe.. but still.. it is just -1 min cd.. not so important..

So now.. i will distribute the rest talent points and get:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
- and this is now my build.. i beleive it is best now, bcos i dont see any significant lack of my survavibility talents.. and i still have quite good dmg/tps boost.

Thx.

[Wroar]

What Gamca said ^_^

Other than what Gamca said, Stegho, I've already answered and usually proven otherwise most of the statements you make. Dps is in integral part of our current playstyle and spec. Conc Blow and Vigilance all come down to the playstyle and role of the person playing. Devastate is far less important than in TBC, and only used to put up the initial armor reduction, and then to keep it on or if all else is on cd. Imp Demo should not be taken by a Prot Warrior, if it means losing a big part of our tree, which it does. DPS Warriors and Warlocks are perfectly capable of doing the job. Puncture is an almost useless talent now and provides far less rage saving then Imp HS, so nobody would ever assume you have it. Imp Charge is one of the most useful and versatile abilities we've ever been given. Because DPS is a big part of not only our playstyle but also our TPS, ignoring it will cause you to fall behind on TPS, hence why we have the spare points to spec into Impale as Gamca pointed out.

In fact, the only thing I agree on you with is that Anger Management is pointless and a waste of a talent, which is what I've stated in the guide. Everything I've said above I've said before and you can find explained in the guide.

Of course, you are welcome to disagree with me and all the people who've helped me write and alter the guide, but be careful not to blind yourself to the large amount of change that Blizz has thrown into the Prot tree, abilities and playstyle. It almost strikes me in your argument that you're looking at this from a lvl 70 point of view, not lvl 80.

[holmedog]

Gamca,

You're build is VERY close to the one I currently run as MT. I take the 3 points out of Focused Rage and put them into Cruelty. I have rage to spare most of the time, and I'm never sitting on an empty bar when I pull.

I do toy with pulling points out of IHS for Iron Will. When you get MC'd or Stunned that 20% reduction is 20% less time you aren't tanking, or 20% less time you are taking full hits. But, without taking Focused Rage, my heroic strikes are costing me a little more rage than I like. However, glyph of heroic strike and glyph or revenge tend to make up the difference.



I think not taking impale is actually wasting points. With the spec Gamca linked, you are not losing ANY avoidance stats. You aren't losing any tanking abilities. You are picking up some more damage at the cost of rage. Whether you generate as much rage, I'll leave up to the theorycrafters. I know from anecdotal, I'm liking the more damage instead of cheaper abilites, and I'm not missing many GCDs unless I'm just waiting on a split second revenge/shield slam CD.

[Stegho]

Wroar,

I completely disagree with you and all who agree with you on this impale nonsense. It will be proven in 25 mans going forward.

Also, I believe you are yourself blind to the changes that have been made. You have not given vigilance a chance, nor seen how wonderful it can be on making transitions faster and smoother.

And no one needs impale for TPS. Raid buffed, our TPS is nonsensically high without it. As is our DPS. I could see a reason to spec into it in the far flung future were a fight like Brutallus to arise when DPS gear has come to a point where they can pump astronomical DPS, but frankly, I doubt it.

The fact is, and this fact ought to be undeniable to anyone who has tanked any of the new content, the only time where threat is EVER an issue these days is on pickups and transitions. As such, Impale is only helpful when you crit on a SS. But if you crit on a SS, then threat will not be an issue anyway.

And as such, it is a talent only useful to wank over recount with.

The arms tree is less useful now than it was in BC.

[Dreador]

@Stegho
So what's your experience to prove that anything you've said is credible? You seem extremely opinionated and granted you are making some good points such as use of Vigilance and Conc blow, but I do have to disagree on most.

-First, DPS IS our threat now. Imp charge, imp HS, and Impale are all very effective threat talents, and speccing into them does not affect your damage reduction in the least. You'd lose things like puncture, imp spell reflect and imp disarm. Woo hoo.

-Second, Devastate- not as important for threat as it was in TBC. Now it is used to apply Sunders and proc S&B, and only after Revenge is used (still more threat per rage than any ability).

-Imp demo, always has been for DPS warriors, until 3.0 I would make offtanks take imp tclap on nights when we had plenty of tanks, if we were short for an evening I would pick it up and tank like a pally. No biggie.

Your post comes off as condescending and derogatory. Until you have hard data to prove people wrong, be a little nicer and a little more open minded.

[Stegho]

There is no data being used to prove the original assertions.

There is simply no way to get to impale without skipping more useful tanking talents elsewhere. I am not trying to be rude, but I have been watching this thread for some time now, waiting for someone to point out the obvious. This impale fad is simply due to impale being so overpowered right now for DPS. Granted. If you want a build to steamroll old content, this is great. If you want a raid tanking build, particularly when and if they release some harder content, forget about Impale.

[Kazeyonoma]

our argument is, where are these "more useful tanking talents elsewhere"? Gamca basically picked all of the survivability talents that we need, and then started speccing elsewhere, how is this bad?

Scenario in a 25 man raid:

Boss reaches enrage timer at 2% and he proceeds to kill your entire raid, and eventually you all die and boss is at 1% gg. wipe come back.

If you had no survivability problems during the fight. You absolutely never had a moment where you were too worried about survival that you needed extra "survival" talents. Than wouldn't having 2/2 impale, have meant the difference between that 2% wipe or not?