[Wartorn]

/swoon

Thanks so much for all the hard work!

[Olympas]

I have been looking everywhere to see if this is possibility, but I haven't found anything yet.

With the damage increases and threat values decreasing on specific abilities, is it now better to use a slow or fast weapon? I know you will have the additional heroic threat, but would a slow weapon which is hitting harder on all abilities be =,<, or >?

The main reason I ask is I saw a 2.5 speed sword with tanking stats on mmo a while back, but I didn't know if that was more for pallies new 51pt talent.

Thanks in advance.

[Bodhi]

Thanks for the legwork, much appreciated.

[Corian]

Source: Olympas I have been looking everywhere to see if this is possibility, but I haven't found anything yet. With the damage increases and threat values decreasing on specific abilities, is it now better to use a slow or fast weapon? I know you will have the additional heroic threat, but would a slow weapon which is hitting harder on all abilities be =,<, or >? The main reason I ask is I saw a 2.5 speed sword with tanking stats on mmo a while back, but I didn't know if that was more for pallies new 51pt talent. Thanks in advance.

Fast weapon doing more Heroic Strikes will always be more threat because of AP normalization.
Example 2000 AP
No matter the weapon speed you get 343 damage from AP (2000AP/14) X 2.4 Weapon normalization.
Devastate with 5 sunders X 56 = 280 damage bonus
2.6 speed 100 dps gives an average damage of (260 + 343)/2 + 280 = 581
1.5 speed 100 dps gives an average damage of (150 + 343)/2 + 280 = 526
45 extra damage on average per devastate doesn't even come close to making up for only getting 3 HS's with a slow weapon to the 5 you could get off with the fast weapon in the same time.
Then add in the Revenge Gylph (next HS after a Revenge costs no rage) and the Heroic Strike Gylph (10 rage awarded on a heroic Strike crit) and it just scales even further.
Then to add even more to it, you take into account that you will be using Devastate less than half as much as you did previously due to Sword and Board procs and working Conc blow and Shockwave into your rotation.

[Olympas]

Source: Corian Fast weapon doing more Heroic Strikes will always be more threat because of AP normalization. Example 2000 AP No matter the weapon speed you get 343 damage from AP (2000AP/14) X 2.4 Weapon normalization. Devastate with 5 sunders X 56 = 280 damage bonus 2.6 speed 100 dps gives an average damage of (260 + 343)/2 + 280 = 581 1.5 speed 100 dps gives an average damage of (150 + 343)/2 + 280 = 526 45 extra damage on average per devastate doesn't even come close to making up for only getting 3 HS's with a slow weapon to the 5 you could get off with the fast weapon in the same time. Then add in the Revenge Gylph (next HS after a Revenge costs no rage) and the Heroic Strike Gylph (10 rage awarded on a heroic Strike crit) and it just scales even further. Then to add even more to it, you take into account that you will be using Devastate less than half as much as you did previously due to Sword and Board procs and working Conc blow and Shockwave into your rotation.

Thanks! First thing I have read that made sense.

[Emtank]

Thanks for the hard work, saw a few things that I was mistaken in thinking, it is much appreciated!

I have a question concerning threat that I am uncertain about: Does the talent One Handed Weapon Spec apply towards Shield Slam and Revenge? I originally thought it only applied to Devastate but I am unsure if this is correct. Anyone know for *SURE?* Haha, thanks for the help!

[Corian]

Source: Emtank Thanks for the hard work, saw a few things that I was mistaken in thinking, it is much appreciated! I have a question concerning threat that I am uncertain about: Does the talent One Handed Weapon Spec apply towards Shield Slam and Revenge? I originally thought it only applied to Devastate but I am unsure if this is correct. Anyone know for *SURE?* Haha, thanks for the help!

A long way back it used to increase all damage done while using a 1 hander including Thunderclap and Shield Slam.
It was rectified however and the tool tip adjusted to reflect the change.
It only affects damage done by abilities that require a melee weapon now like Heroic Strike, Revenge, Devastate ect ect.
Does NOT affect Shield Slam, Thunderclap, Conc blow, Shockwave.

In the end all it really does is negate the 10% damage penalty in Def stance.

(Running around in Battle Stance however in PvP, you can def see the diff heh.)

[Kazeyonoma]

wait is this confirmed that the 1 hand spec doesn't affect shield slam? when did this change happen and why wasn't it mentioned?

[Emtank]

Source: Corian A long way back it used to increase all damage done while using a 1 hander including Thunderclap and Shield Slam. It was rectified however and the tool tip adjusted to reflect the change. It only affects damage done by abilities that require a melee weapon now like Heroic Strike, Revenge, Devastate ect ect. Does NOT affect Shield Slam, Thunderclap, Conc blow, Shockwave. In the end all it really does is negate the 10% damage penalty in Def stance. (Running around in Battle Stance however in PvP, you can def see the diff heh.)

Awesome, thanks for the info.

[Zrthun]

Hm before you say thank you to Corian he should show us proves for that.

In fact the tooltip was very long missleading because it not sounded like increasing SS dmg but as far as I know it did it all the time.

Today the tooltip is:
"Increases physical damage you deal when a one-handed melee weapon is equipped by 10%."

If this is right it affects all physical damage (while a one handed weapon is equiped) including SS and TC. I didn't test it but it would completly stupid if Blizzard after all the time corrects the tooltip and then changes the ability so that it is wrong again.

[pyius]

Quick question. Did shield slam threat values change from the first page?

I don't know if I was testing this wrong, but I was just doing some testing on Servants in blasted lands and came up with the following threat values:


(Build 9056)
By beating on them until they banished...pulled threat, cancelled all enrage buffs, then used a mouseover shield slam macro to not get any melee hits.
705 block
dmg: 1283
threat: 1621 - dmg = 338

961 block
dmg: 1695
threat: 2046 - dmg = 351

1412 block
dmg: 2229
threat: 2585 - dmg = 356

3002
dmg: 3554
threat: 4037 - dmg = 483

[Satrina]

It may have changed, I haven't had time to do any testing since build 89something. I have time now, so this weekend I'll be doing a full re-test.

I wonder though, why aren't you just bloodraging, walking in (backwards to let them hit you to get enough rage for shield slam if you need to), and then slamming them to get your threat value as the difference from zero? Melee hits aren't a big deal, just subtract them straight off the threat total once you normalise it.

Also, are you testing at 80?

[pyius]

I didn't want bloodrage to be offsetting the threat. With the mobs banished and still taking dmg, it seemed like a clean way for threat to stabalize. I know I can subtract the melee hits, but mouseover macro just seemed easier.

I did test this at 70. I'll see what I find at 80 today.

[Satrina]

That would explain the discrepancies since I am only testing at level 80. Don't much care about 70.

You can bloodrage and let it end before you enter combat if you use a stationary mob to test on. I just zone into Utgarde keep and use the first two guards, killing one first if I'm not doing split threat tests.

[Darksend]

whats the methodology for this so i can get to work on doing a druid version of it, im a total nub at these sorts of things.

[Satrina]

Read the first 5 posts of this thread

[Darksend]

k ill have to look at it later

i was mostly looking for a quick recap of where to find things. For example, i dont even know the base threat modifier for bear form from which to base everything off of (so maybe i am not the best person to be doing this).

[Dots]

Source: darksend i was mostly looking for a quick recap of where to find things. For example, i dont even know the base threat modifier for bear form from which to base everything off of (so maybe i am not the best person to be doing this).

Hit mob once, check threat, divide threat by damage done.

[Satrina]

Having found some time just now, I've re-verified the basics for build 9138. No changes so far. Now to go put on a sunder glyph.

[Satrina]

Redid Glyph of Devastate. It's definitely fixed from the last testing I did:

Devastate/Sunder with Glyph of Sunder Armor

Two tests: Attack with a Devastate and attack with a Sunder. I had 2266AP

Devastate
Confirmed that attacking with Devastate applies Sunder to target 2.

Target 1: 1642 melee damage, gained 363899 threat. Normalise to 1755 threat, and remove 1642 damage to leave 113 threat.
Target 2: Gained 95278 threat. Normalise to 459.5 threat

113 threat is 5% of AP. We're getting the normal Devastate threat on target 1.
459.5 threat is 345 + 5% of AP, which is the normal Sunder threat.

Sunder
Target 1: 475 melee damage, gained 193769 threat. Normalise to 934.5 threat, and remove 475 damage to leave 459.5 threat
Target 2: Gained 95278 threat. Normalise to 459.5 threat

459.5 threat is 345 + 5% of AP, which is the normal Sunder threat.

- If a Sunder is used on the first target, a normal Sunder is applied to both targets and the normal Sunder threat is generated on both targets.
- If a Devastate is used, the normal Devastate threat is generated on the first target, and normal Sunder threat is generated on the second target.