[Zoal]

Source: Khordam If I got this right, what your numbers say is that 5 sunders generate more threat than 1 devastate. That's hardly surprising. The only real comparison to be done is between 1 sunder (97662 threat) and 1 devastate (255248 threat). Devastate wins, big time, as damn well it should.

Unfortunately, I hope I am just tired and wrong - the impression that I got here is that Sunder will apply stacking threat each time. So when there is 5 stacks on the target, its doing 90%AP innate threat? Which would blow Devastate out of the water.

[Drao]

Thank you very much for this big effort !

*waiting patiently for more TC results*

[phaze]

Source: Satrina We will still talk about threat values in ther normalised forms as we always have. Whether you refer to the stance modifier as 207.35 or 2.0735 is irrelevant to pretty much all discussions of threat.

As long as all 'stanceless' threat is also converted to an understood x100, that's fine. (damage/effects from several classes before -threat talents, Mana/Energy/Rage Gain, maybe Execute ignores stance, etc.)

To use the Rage Gain example again: it doesn't make sense to compare its 500 threat to values that have been divided by the stance multiplier; it appears larger than Sunder!

Divide Rage Gain threat by the base stance scalar of 100, and you have 5 threat; that now shows the base value before any sort of stance consideration. And now you can directly compare to other base values, such as Heroic Throw's threat of 1.5x damage done, or 259 threat for HS.

Does any of this affect the actual results? Nope. It just makes it cleaner on comparing all values, to help avoid confusion down the road.

It's the scientist in me, wanting to make sure all the units are lined up properly.


Now that the nitpick is out of the way: wanted to say thanks again, for all the work put into the testing and the writeup. /cheer Satrina!

[Garrek]

Looks like you've got a typo in your original thread in the Heroic Throw section. The #2 and #3 samples are subtracting out copipasta'd values from the #3 Revenge sample.

[Sparan]

So I did a little testing with the sunder armor glyph and it seems that it applies the sunder armor effect to a second target BOTH via the use of sunder armor and DEVASTATE! It doesn't do any damage to the second target (or, at least, the second target dummy wasn't showing any sct to that effect). So, my question for those savvy enough to make nifty threat mods is how much, if any, threat is the second target receiving in each of these situations? If devastate does the same threat to both targets this would be almost on the level of a must-have glyph imo.

BTW, thanks so much Satrina for your constant super-awesomeness.

[AnvilDK]

Thanks for all your hard work and data analysing Satrina.

Looks like they really are serious about our threat scaling with our ap. Going to be interesting seeing people gearing moving forward. Gemming for pure stamina seems like a bad idear in this world as we can not rely on our abilities innate threat to carry us through.

And the good part is once we have cleared content but need to gear up new people in already done content we can scale down the survival/mitigation and go for some stellar str/ap gear and give the dps a higher celling to reach for.

All in all good changes.

Game is shaping up nicely.

The warrior will still be great and unique in his ability to tank and mitigate. I do worry about the other classes bigger utility roles. Seems protection tanks are going to be either present in large numbers due to history or it will be the one protection tank.

I am sure protection tanks will be good MT. It is the ot role I am thinking about.

Tankboss

[Krynis]

Am I right in thinking with these changes if they did add the threat from Sunder to Devastate it would be like tanking with training wheels?

[Misko]

As the glyphs for prot warriors have just become available will some numbers be done for these as well? One that particularly come to mind would be the Sunder Armor glyph's 2nd sunder. If applied through Devastate does it not give the extra threat it would if you would have used Sunder, since the 2nd sunder effect would have not done any damage? Or am I really misunderstanding the math on this?

[Radhja]

The Sunder Glyph (+1 Sunder stack on nearby mob) might just make putting Sunder back on my hotbar a worthwhile notion. Any experimentation with that?

[Radhja]

Source: Misko As the glyphs for prot warriors have just become available will some numbers be done for these as well? One that particularly come to mind would be the Sunder Armor glyph's 2nd sunder. If applied through Devastate does it not give the extra threat it would if you would have used Sunder, since the 2nd sunder effect would have not done any damage? Or am I really misunderstanding the math on this?

Devastate doesn't trigger the Glyph, only Sunder Armor does.

[Sparan]

As I said in my post above, Radhja, devestate does in fact apply the sunder effect, although the jury is still out on whether the threat caused (assuming there is some threat caused) is the innate threat of using sunder armor or whether it's equal to the threat you caused with devastate.

[Satrina]

Whoa, busy thread. Responding to points previous:

- The threat from avoidance is straight up 207 in defensive stance, and you don't get it at all in battle or berserk.

- I'll get my roommate to log in and help me test spell reflect threat when I reflect a spell shot at an ally, yep. I'll also try to see if activating reflect has any threat value

- Shield bash does indeed do damage.

- MS/BT/TM are not high on my list. We'll see how long it takes me to nail down the protection stuff.

- Others have confirmed that Thunder Clap is still 175%

- Yeah, listing rage gain as 5 threat per point works in the normalised list. Bugs me that the normalisation factor for threat is 100, and it's 207.35 for everything else, though!

- 20 Devastates are generating about 40% more threat than 20 Sunders, no question. I'm just messing with the numbers now to figure out how it's broken down.

- If I can get glyphs, I'll test them. If not, I won't.

[Satrina]

Confirmed:

Battle Shout = 78 threat, split amongst targets
Commanding Shout = 80 threat, split amongst targets
Demoralising Shout = 63 threat, split amongst targets

(no change from 2.x)

Edit: Triggering spell reflect does not grant any threat.

Edit2: d-stance thunder clap hit for 499 damage, generating 181069 threat. Normalised threat is 873, giving a threat multiplier of 1.75.

[Sparan]

I'll see if the guy who made mine would be willing to make some for you, as well. If your name is different on beta from what it is on these boards would you mind sending me some in-game mail so I know who to send the glyphs out to?

[Satrina]

Regarding Sunder higher threat for larger stacks. In build 8970 the tooltip has been changed/corrected:

Now my results make sense at a constant amount of threat regardless. If Sunder was supposed to get more threat per stack, it'd outstrip Devastate massively after two stacks.

Sunder: 18% AP
Devastate: 5% AP + damage

Works out to Devastate generating about 40% more threat than Sunder (at 2500ish AP)



I'm doing my testing at 80 on Murmur, dunno if that's where you are. I could test glyphs at 70 on Northrend (if I'm on Northrend I am writing addons, so I haven't levelled there at all).

[Dîger]

Does Anger Management also do 500threat per tick?

[phaze]

Source: Radhja Devastate doesn't trigger the Glyph, only Sunder Armor does.

From earlier developer comments, Devastate's design is to replace Sunder on the ability bar. So someone with beta access should mention that the glyph isn't working correctly yet, for Devastate.

Source: Dîger Does Anger Management also do 500threat per tick?

No, AM isn't considered a Rage Gain effect. AM just modifies the rage decay numbers.

Normal decay is -3 rage per tick (combat or not), but you get a base +3 per tick in combat to prevent decay. AM just adds +1 per tick (combat or not).

End result: +1 rage per tick in combat, and -2 rage per tick out of combat.

[Warwench]

Source: Satrina And! I just noticed something very interesting: I get 207 threat whenever I dodge, parry, or block an opponent's attack in defensive stance. That's hot. Verified that there is no threat gain for dodge/parry/block in battle and berserker stances

That is VERY hot and something i have been wishing for for a long time. Being a bitch to hit properly should piss a mob off. It's going to help with stuff we over gear GREATLY.

YAY !, my prayers have been answered..i am super excited to tank again.

[Satrina]

Source: phaze No, AM isn't considered a Rage Gain effect. AM just modifies the rage decay numbers. Normal decay is -3 rage per tick (combat or not), but you get a base +3 per tick in combat to prevent decay. AM just adds +1 per tick (combat or not). End result: +1 rage per tick in combat, and -2 rage per tick out of combat.

That changed a long time ago. The tooltip has said "Generates 1 rage per 3 seconds" for quite a while. I'd be surprised if it did not generate threat. That said, 10000 threat per minute isn't anything to write home about. That's less net threat than the shouts generate (13063 in battle stance for demo shout)

[Ciderhelm]

Source: Warwench That is VERY hot and something i have been wishing for for a long time. Being a bitch to hit properly should piss a mob off. It's going to help with stuff we over gear GREATLY. YAY !, my prayers have been answered..i am super excited to tank again.

This is not as good as you think.

By comparison to current Threat values, it's essentially ~2 Threat. It only looks big because of the multipliers being used.