[jere]

Non-Holy Damage Threat Modifiers (Melee Attacks, etc.):

No Righteous Fury ==> 1.00
Righteous Fury    ==> 1.43

Holy Damage Threat Modifiers:

No Righteous Fury ==>             1.000
Righteous Fury    ==> 1.43*1.80 = 2.574

Healing Threat Modifiers:

Judgement of Light (Holy)
   Righteous Fury    ==> 0
   No Righteous Fury ==> 0
Other
   No Righteous Fury ==>                  0.2500
   Righteous Fury    ==> 0.25*1.43*1.80 = 0.6435

Mana Regen Threat Modifiers:

Divine Plea (Holy)
   Righteous Fury    ==> 0.5*1.43*1.8 = 1.287
   No Righteous Fury ==>              = 0.500
Other       
   Righteous Fury    ==> 0
   No Righteous Fury ==> 0

Specific Ability Threat Modifiers:

Retribution Aura (Holy) ==> 2.0

Individual Threat Values (With RF up):

Hammer of Justice Stun                   ==> 306.59
Buffing Seal of Righteousness            ==>   2.57
Buffing Seal of Justice                  ==>  56.63
Buffing Seal of Light                    ==>  77.22
Buffing Seal of Wisdom                   ==>  97.81
Buffing Seal of Vengeance                ==> 164.73
Buffing Blessing of Kings                ==>  51.48
Buffing Blessing of Might                ==> 203.34
Buffing Blessing of Wisdom               ==>   0.00
Buffing Blessing of Sanctuary            ==> 134.42
Buffing Greater BoK                      ==> 154.44
Buffing Greater BoM                      ==> 203.34
Buffing Greater BoW                      ==>   0.00
Buffing Greater BoS                      ==> 211.64
Buffing HoF                              ==>  46.33
Buffing HoP                              ==>  97.81
Buffing HoSalv                           ==>  66.92 (declines by 2% every second)
Buffing HoSac                            ==> 118.40
Buffing Righteous Fury                   ==>   0.00
Buffing Divine Protection                ==>   0.00
Buffing Divine Shield                    ==>   0.00
Buffing Sacred Shield                    ==> 102.96
Buffing Avenging Wrath                   ==> 180.18

NOTE: Not all abilities have base threat.
NOTE: Aside from retribution aura, no other abilities have special threat bonuses (multiplicative)
NOTE: Judgement of Wisdom and Judgment of Light procs no longer generate threat
NOTE: Seal of Justice stun procs do not generate threat
NOTE: Aside from Divine Plea, no other mana regen procs generate threat (including SA)
NOTE: Reckoning, Redoubt, Sacred Shield procs all do not generate any threat.

EDIT: Credit also goes to Lore for a lot of the values listed (see his post below for more info).

EDIT: Took out JoW base threat because it was really just mana regen threat from the JoW mana proc.
EDIT: JoW no longer generates threat. Updated that.
EDIT: Updated Retribution Aura
EDIT: Updated JoL and Base Threat Values. Moved some data to another post.

[Nicki]

Awesome to know!!! means the switch to melee weapon is probably 100% now

[Lore]

So with RF up, everything gets the baked in salv (43% bonus). Makes sense.

I was excited about that for a second until I remembered that that just puts everything where it is now on Live.

[jere]

What gave me a chuckle was how buffing the various seals produced threat equal to their trained level. Not that it matters in the long run since we only rebuff every 2 mins, but I was expecting a uniform buffing threat.

EDIT:
Saving these values for later use:
Base Threat Values:

Hammer of Justice Stun (Holy)            ==> 108
Hammer of Justice Interrupt (Non-Holy)   ==>  20
Buffing Seal of Righteousness (Holy)     ==>   1
Buffing Seal of Justice (Holy)           ==>  22
Buffing Seal of Light (Holy)             ==>  30
Buffing Seal of Wisdom (Holy)            ==>  38
Buffing Seal of Vengeance (Holy)         ==>  64
Buffing Blessing of Kings (Holy)         ==>  20
Buffing Blessing of Might (Holy)         ==>  79
Buffing Blessing of Wisdom (Holy)        ==>   0 (yes 0)
Buffing Blessing of Sanctuary (Holy)     ==>  30
Buffing Blessing of Sanctuary (Non-Holy) ==>  40 (not sure what this is yet)
Buffing Greater BoK (Holy)               ==>  60
Buffing Greater BoM (Holy)               ==>  79
Buffing Greater BoW (Holy)               ==>   0 (yes 0)
Buffing Greater BoS (Holy)               ==>  60
Buffing Greater BoS (Non-Holy)           ==>  40 (not sure what this is yet)
Buffing HoF (Holy)                       ==>  18
Buffing HoP (Holy)                       ==>  38
Buffing HoSalv (Holy)                    ==>  26 (declines by 2% every second)
Buffing HoSac (Holy)                     ==>  46
Buffing Righteous Fury (Holy)            ==>   0
Buffing Divine Protection (Holy)         ==>   0
Buffing Sacred Shield (Holy)             ==>  40
Buffing Avenging Wrath (Holy)            ==>  70

[Lore]

Satrina was kind enough to lend me his threat mod, so I did some testing on our various abilities. Remember, threat values are multiplied by 100 from what you're used to (1 damage is 100 threat). Values I used for RF normalization were 271.7 for Holy damage and 143 for everything else. This was done on a level 80 premade on Murmur.

Avenger's Shield
1712 dmg - 465150 threat - 1712 normalized
1756 dmg - 477105 threat - 1756 normalized
Conclusion: AS has no extra threat bonuses

Hammer of the Righteous
2088 dmg - 567310 threat - 2088 normalized
1013 dmg - 275232 threat - 1013 normalized
Conclusion: HotR has no extra threat bonuses

Holy Shield
567 dmg - 154054 threat - 567 normalized
552 dmg - 149978 threat - 552 normalized
Conclusion: HS has no extra threat bonuses
Note: In TBC, it does. This means the extra threat bonus from Holy Shield has been removed.

Shield of Righteousness
(Note: While testing this I discovered that you can ShoR things in a wider arc in front of you than you can swing. I was able to get ShoR values without getting a melee swing this way.)
1017 dmg - 276319 threat - 1017 normalized
942 dmg - 255941 threat - 942 normalized
Conclusion: ShoR no longer has a bonus threat component either.

Hammer of Justice
0 dmg - 29344 threat - 205 normalized @ 143, 108 normalized @ 271.7
Without RF: 0 dmg - 10800 threat - 108 normalized
Conclusion: HoJ does 108 base threat and gets RF's 190% modifier.

Judgement of Light
1494 dmg - 405920 threat - 1494 normalized
725 dmg - 196982 threat - 725 normalized
Conclusion: JoL has no extra threat bonuses.

Judgement of Wisdom
1494 dmg - 411620 threat (5700 more than expected) - 1515 normalized - 1494 w/o bonus
725 dmg - 202682 threat (5700 more than expected) - 746 normalized - 725 w/o bonus
Without RF: 725 dmg - 78200 threat (5700 more than expected) - 782 normalized - 725 w/o bonus
Conclusion: JoW does 5700 (57) bonus threat with or without RF active.

Judgement of Justice
726 dmg - 197254 threat - 726 normalized
Without RF: 725 dmg - 72500 threat - 725 normalized
Conclusion: JoJ has no threat bonus.

Blessing of Sanctuary's mana gain does not generate threat, inside or outside RF. We also, unlike Warriors, don't generate any threat from dodge/parry/block.

So far it looks like, with the exception of JoW (and obviously HoJ), all of our skills are doing threat based purely on damage.

[jere]

Does this need to be moved to the transition forum? It is by no means complete or in guide format, but the information is fairly pertinent.

[Kazeyonoma]

if you would like me to move it there I can, but you'll probably want to smooth out the rough edges first, then Satrina will probably pick it up then.

[jere]

Ok, I consolidated Lore's and my findings into the OP and moved the info in the original OP into this post for posterity.


************************************************** ***************************************

This is a repost of what I put up at EJ. It isn't comprehensive, but an interesting start:


************************************************


Ok, so I did some various threat testing on the beta since Cathela's posts intrigued me.

Weapon Damage:
Without RF, 129 damage did 131.58 threat (2% more than the value)
With RF, 131 damage did 191.08 threat (which happens to be 131*1.02*1.43)

Holy Damage:
Without RF, 392 damage did 399.84 threat (2% more)
With RF, 392 damage did 1086.37 threat (which is 392*1.02*1.9*1.43)

Healing:
Without RF: 1381 heal did 352.15 threat (which is 1381*0.25*1.02)
With RF: 4230 heal did 2930.69 threat (which is 4230*0.25*1.02*1.9*1.43)

Both RF and Holy Shield appeared to generate 0 "buffing" threat
Redoubt procs generate 0 "buffing" threat.

Threat from buffing the various Seals was interesting however:

SoR:
Without RF, 1.02 threat (2% more than 1)
With RF, 2.77 threat (which is 1*1.02*1.9*1.43)

SoJ:
Without RF, 22.44 threat (which is 2% more than 22)
With RF, 60.97 (which is 22*1.02*1.9*1.43)

SoL:
Without RF, 30.60 threat (which is 2% more than 30)
With RF, 83.14 (which is 30*1.02*1.9*1.43)


SoW:
Without RF, 38.76 threat (which is 2% more than 38)
With RF, 105.31 (which is 38*1.02*1.9*1.43)


SoV:
Without RF, 65.28 threat (which is 2% more than 64)
With RF, 177.36 (which is 64*1.02*1.9*1.43)


SoM:
Without RF, 67.32 threat (which is 2% more than 66)
With RF, 182.91 (which is 66*1.02*1.9*1.43)

*************************

So

1. There seems to be a 2% inherent threat value regardless (EDIT: 2% threat to gloves!!)
2. Melee dmg gets more threat with RF up than with it down (43% more threat)
3. The baked in salv is only there when RF is up (makes sense)
4. The base threat of buffing seals seems to be equal to the level they are trained
5. RF affected "buffing" threat
6. Redoubt, Holy Shield, and RF don't seem to generate threat from buffing

[jere]

Lore (or anyone for that matter) can you think of anything important we are missing in this thread? We have

1. All the threat multipliers for melee, spell dmg, and healing
2. *I think* all of the base threat values listed (did we miss any?)

Just trying to make sure it is all covered.

[Lore]

I can't think of anything. I could test Exorcism/Holy Wrath/Hammer of Wrath/judgements with different seals active but I don't have any reason to believe they'll have any bonus threat attached.

[jere]

The bonus threat on JoW bothers me to an extent. I can't figure out why it would be there, so I have this nagging suspicion it has something to do with another effect (kind of like how improved def stance gives threat for dodge/parry/block somehow). If it were based off the mana gain (possible), I would expect similar behavior from JoL.

I know judgements (at least JoW) are applying SoV stacks. So maybe there is something else there...

[Lore]

The bonus threat on JoW confused me for a while. I thought it was Judgement of Vengeance at first, so I switched to SoR, but I was still getting it. So then I tried JoL, and the bonus threat disappeared from both SoR and SoV.

[jere]

Ok, here is some more data for thought:

I used SoJ and JoW for this test. I buffed the seal upfront, aggroed the mob, and turned my back to it. Then I judged.

With gloves equipped (2% threat):
431 judgement ==> 43962 Threat
91 mana regen from JoW ==> 48512
Oddly enough: 48512 - 43962 = 4550, which is exactly 50% of 91
Note that that the threat from the JoW proc was not affected by the 2% threat enchant
On the flip side: 43962/1.02 = 43100, which is what I expect.

No gloves equipped:
403 judgement ==> 40300
91 mana ==> 44850
Again, 44850-40300 = 4550, which is 50% of 91.
Buffed RF (no threat gained)
402 judgement ==> 154073 ==> 154073-44850 = 109223 = 402*1.9*1.43
92 mana ==> 158673
and 158673-154073 = 4600, which is 50% of 92 mana

Conclusion:
So neither RF nor 2% threat on gloves seems to affect the mana regen threat, but it is there with JoW. I will see about JoL in a bit.

[jere]

Followup:
Judgement of Light does not proc a healing effect like JoW does a mana effect. That is why there is no extra threat on JoL.


EDIT: I filed a bug report for both 2% threat on gloves and JoL/JoW consistency:
WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> [BUGS] 2% threat and JoW/JoL consistency

[jere]

Something else interesting. I was using HoJ to verify your threat values and I got some differences:

No RF or 2%: 12800 threat (different from your 10800)
With RF but no 2%: 32204 (different from your 29344)

So we have a difference of 20 threat in no RF mode and a difference of 2860 threat in RF mode. Oddly enough, 2860 is 20*143

So I am getting something like two components
108 threat, which is modified by 1.9 and 1.43
20 threat which is modified only by 143

Can you go back and test it again? I did it on mobs that could be stunned. I wonder if it has to do with the new "interrupt" feature of the stun?

[DwarvenTankard]

Hey Guys, So anyone else using the combo move that pallies have now? I got my Libram of Obstruction and when I judge I immediately follow it up with a Shield Of Righteousness and am seeing a huge difference in damage. It jumps from a 1700dmg SoR to a 2500dmg SoR(I have gotten 6k crit this way). Also, I'm wondering about that weapons you guys are using to tank. I'm using the Titansteel Bonecrusher which I had crafted for me. I know its not a tanking weapon however I find that the added treat generated by it is just insanse. My thinking is that in order to take full advantage of the HoR X 4 Mainhand damage I proceeded to find the weapon that did the most damage per hit. The Bonecrusher does 251-467 which is nice. My average HoR hits for about 1500 dmg. I find these two tips for threat generation helpful as I have a couple high dps players that I run with. Particularly a mage that likes to go on crit streaks.

[jere]

Source: DwarvenTankard Hey Guys, So anyone else using the combo move that pallies have now? I got my Libram of Obstruction and when I judge I immediately follow it up with a Shield Of Righteousness and am seeing a huge difference in damage. It jumps from a 1700dmg SoR to a 2500dmg SoR(I have gotten 6k crit this way). Also, I'm wondering about that weapons you guys are using to tank. I'm using the Titansteel Bonecrusher which I had crafted for me. I know its not a tanking weapon however I find that the added treat generated by it is just insanse. My thinking is that in order to take full advantage of the HoR X 4 Mainhand damage I proceeded to find the weapon that did the most damage per hit. The Bonecrusher does 251-467 which is nice. My average HoR hits for about 1500 dmg. I find these two tips for threat generation helpful as I have a couple high dps players that I run with. Particularly a mage that likes to go on crit streaks.

This thread is more for talking about threat values, theory, and such. For general questions and discussion, I would suggest posting a new thread in the General section. HoR actually does 4xDPS, not weapong damage, so top end really doesn't matter as much. I currently use the Red Sword of Courage. My threat is already pretty high, so I don't need to go the route of a DPS weapon yet. Plus the tanking stats are nice. And yes, libram of obstruction is indeed nice. I don't always put ShR after Judgement though. I stick to the 96969 rotation as it seems to put out more sustained than following every judgement with ShR, though that is mostly anecdotal on my part.

[jayboogiee]

i had a quick question about paladin tanking ..in the paladin chart section of protection there is a part named Touch by The Light which increases your spell power by an amount equal to 10% of your stamina and increases the amount healed by your critical heals by 10%. Rite now im tanking with out any points there and its pretty difficult keeping total control of threat so just wondering if putting point there is a definate thing i have to do? looking for any other tanking tips while using a paladin? thanks on all the cool video to help me no all the fights =]

[jere]

It is really a nice threat talent. I would get it, especially for only 3 points. Right now in partial tier 7.5 gear, I am getting 712 SP from that talent, which is worth quite a bit of threat (on the order of 650-700'ish AP probably, though I would need to run the numbers).

[jayboogiee]

Another question whats the best seal to use for the most threat possible ?