[Spazlord]

Bit concerned. Have to wait and see how it affects me, but I dare say I won't be able to wear my badge ring and fancy trinkets anymore. /cry

WTB tank shoulders with fricken defense. lol

[TomHuxley]

Ok, so as I've mentioned in a few other threads now, it's not obvious to be that 490 def is actually the cap in 3.0.2. Or if it is, it may be modified to make crits a lot less likely depending on other avoidance stats. I've spent sevral hours across two days letting fairly big things whack at me (I made a point of having less than 3% crit reduction tonight) and nothing has crit me yet.

WTH is going on?

[Zelgius]

Source: Ilya M If you read the other thread that Xav posted about what the defense picture is like at lvl 80, you would have a different opinion of the current situation

I have read his thread and yet I have managed to form my own opinions

[Helgi]

Source: protonly It makes sense they'd have to bump down the def due to itemization and such. However they should do something to compensate for the sudden drop since a lot of people will probably have to gem/trinket/gear for the additional defense instead of stam or what have you. But with the removal of CBs maybe that extra stam or what have you isn't needed as much as it was. Personally I'm at 506ish defense so with the change I'll be critable unless I swap out trinkets and lose 51 stam. That's with current gear. I can only hope they won't really decrease current amounts of defense of gear b/c it'll mean the difference between raiding and not raiding since no one brings in a critable tank.

If your Stamina goes down it won't be that big of a deal. As far as I can see, the trees have a lot more avoidance talents... so your lack of stamina will be made up by the increased avoidance (in theory, of course).

Druids... on the other hand... won't need any extra defense at all. Right now Survival of the Fittest reduces crit chance by 6%. So guilds still progressing might find a bear in the main tank spot for awhile.

[finwë]

Played on the PTR yesterday and the defence rating dropped for about 30 for me. I had 496 defense rating on live and have only 466 left in PTR. Gear is based around t4/badge loot. If it's really still 490 defense rating to be uncrittable (still not sure about it), then I will probarly begin change my meta gem to the defense rating one (got the 18 stam one now) and also change my enchant on the chest and/or cloak. Hopefully get me back above 490.

Curious if somebody has tested it on the PTR if you still need 490 for uncrittable.

[tuffmuffin]

In all honesty people blow being critable way out of proportion.

5-mans? Get crit all you want. There aren't huge pulls in the vast majority, (Shattered Halls has a couple, but many of those mobs don't hit fantastically hard.) and stuff is usually CCed until you outgear the place at which point you better not be crittable, even then it isn't huge if you aren't

Karazhan? Only a select few mobs you wouldn't *want* to be crit on (Nightbane, Prince), but a slight chance to be crit won't kill you.

Gruuls? Can pose a small problem here, but isn't game breaking. Only really comes into play pending worst possible scenarios (HKM) or pitiful DPS (Gruul) If you get crit in the first 5 growths you will not die unless your healers fail. 6-10 it can hurt, but still healable, after that it could be fatal pending your health etc. You have panic buttons for a reason, use them. Hurtful can't crit.

Mags? Not that much patching going on once he's free except when the cieling caves in so there should be PLENTY of heals on you. Worst case scenario is a cleave-melee swing at the same time, in which case it would be extremely bad luck.

SSC? Hydross is give or take... being in enough resist is way more cruicial. Transitions are done before the damage gets too extreme. Lurker is weak. Leo you barely need to tank, DW --> misses more. FLK, meh. Would only really hurt when he uses Beast Within. Tidewalker could potentially be a problem from parry-haste and his attack speed. Vashj has a lame melee attack

TK? Voidreaver it would be welcome on for the rage... He's weak anyway. Al'ar there's not much patching going on and you should be loaded with heals. Solaarian = lol, Kael likes casting Fireballs, a crit melee swing would hurt roughly as much as one of those, not game breaking.

So at best to here everything is fine, even if you have a tiny chance to be crit. Even after 3.0, you shouldn't be crittable towards the end of SSC/TK, if you are it will be a TINY chance.

Hyjal? Rage has a pitiful attack and is throwing spells around half the fight. Anetheron could be dicey, because of Carrion Swarm. Kaz'rogal already crushes often due to the stuns, crits wouldn't be much different unless heals stopped. Azgalor and Archimonde would be the only ones where a crit could be devastating due to fight mechanics. If you can still be crit by these two you need to quit WoW.

BT? Naj wouldn't be bad, DW so his hit is penalized anyway. Even just going in there tanks can get an avoidance streak and be rage starved. Supremus attacks pretty slow, so as long as healers are cascading heals and they aren't all landing at the same time you're fine. Hateful can't crit. If you die by getting crit on Akama adds you need to quit WoW. Gorefiend could pose a threat, but with his attack speed it should not be an issue. Bloodboil could pose a threat if your Acidic Wound stack gets too high in which case it isn't so much because you got crit as the tanks need to transition better.
RoS being crit in phase 2 should never matter due to the healing increase, again as long as heals are cascading. Phase 3 could be bad if you fail at burning rage (Druid/Warrior) and spike damage on a Paladin is already lol. Mother, Council and Illidan can hurt due to fight mechanics, but as with Hyjal if you can still be crit this late you need to quit.

Sunwell crits could kill you quite easily but if you can manage to be crit here you need to quit. Bad.

It's already retarded easy for a Paladin to become crit immune from Holy Shield, Druids can get 3/3 Survival of the fittest and call it good, the ONLY class that is really affected by this is the Warrior.

Being crit is NOT a huge issue.

[finwë]

Source: tuffmuffin Being crit is NOT a huge issue.

Nobody said it is...it's just one of the things a good tank will not get. Your point in bosses don't hit hard in heriocs / kara all depend how good your gear is. If you go do a herioc with end game epics, sure crits are not an issue they are even nice to get some rage. But a tank who is still in green/blue gear sure is going to be crit immune just to avoid to be shotted down in 2 crits.

These whole site is here to give the in and outs of tanking. Whenever it is treat, talents builds or crit immune nothing is a big deal. But when you don't think about things, it can become a big deal. A good tank will master everything in perfection and become crit immune is one them. It's just like saying become hit capped for a caster is not a big issue.

Rather have people respond on the subject and can tell the in and outs about tanking.

[protonly]

Source: tuffmuffin Being crit is NOT a huge issue.

Certainly isn't but a critable tank has no place in a raid where he or she can be crit -- outside of very specific resist/magic fights where there is 0.0% chance to be crit.

[Kazeyonoma]

So, you're trudging along, 78% through the boss fight, full consumables going, taking down said 10 man raid, or even say 5 man heroic, and BLAM you get crit, you drop low, followed by another crit. You're dead. time wasted, wipe, clean up, come back again. This isn't a huge issue? You wouldn't want to spare your entire party/raid a wipe by making sure you aren't crittable? The whole reason why crushes were so terrible were because they were not part of the "norm" of your damage intake. Any fluxuation caused havoc to healers and put the raid at risk. So now you're gonna say that taking DOUBLE damage, as opposed to a crushes 1.50x damage isn't a huge issue? Get real.

[Orenus]

Source: jere The only caveat to this is that they are lowering the defense on some existing items as well to get some of the STR points. I am at 520 defense live. Going to the BETA dropped me to 486 defense for example.

Yeah, this hit me harder than I anticipated. I'm 519 on live, but on the PTR I dropped to 482. I can push it back up to 490 by swapping in my T4 gloves in place of my Iron Gauntlets of the Maiden and replacing my cloak and chest enchants with +def. On the upside, he new bonus health from being a 375 miner just about makes up what I lose in HP from the gloves and chest enchant.

[Helgi]

Source: tuffmuffin It's already retarded easy for a Paladin to become crit immune from Holy Shield, Druids can get 3/3 Survival of the fittest and call it good, the ONLY class that is really affected by this is the Warrior. Being crit is NOT a huge issue.

Umm... Holy Shield doesn't reduce crit chance at all. Just increases chance to block.

So it affects both Paladins and Warriors (doesn't affect Druids but then again it never really affected Druids in the first place).

And I would say that crit immunity is VERY important for guilds still progressing. In progression the healers are being stressed as it is, and having a tank that is being crit definitely doesn't help much.

[Dismember]

Yeeeaaahh, when did getting crit become "not a big deal"?

[tuffmuffin]

@finwë
I've been a tank since I started the game, I know the ins and outs of tanking, and each class quite well.

@Kazeyonoma
Heroic bosses hit for what... 3k at MOST? In T4/Badge gear you can hit 15k health easily. Two 6k hits in a row should never kill you if your healer is even watching the screen. Comparing crushes to them? Something that can happen up to 15% of the time as opposed to something that can now happen, in the most extreme cases to a low progress guild >1% of the time? Being crushed multiple times in a row from a lame RNG is far more likely to kill you than one crit any day of the week. Being crit twice in a row is an extreme improbability, even so you should be getting heals between the hits. Unless it's a boss with a faster attack speed, which normally means they don't hit as hard. 10-mans you may not depending on the number of healers in the raid, 25-mans there are ALWAYS healers assigned specifically to the tank so there is no excuse.

Source: Helgi Umm... Holy Shield doesn't reduce crit chance at all. Just increases chance to block. And I would say that crit immunity is VERY important for guilds still progressing. In progression the healers are being stressed as it is, and having a tank that is being crit definitely doesn't help much.

If you block you cannot be crit. The point being with Holy Shield active Paladins get 30% (More with the Libram) extra Block and getting 72.4 avoidance + base block so every hit would be a miss, dodge, parry or block is a joke. No boss can chew through an entire Holy Shield in the time it takes to refresh it.

The only scenario where Paladins are affected is when they're AoE tanking enough mobs where they can chew through Holy Shield. And even in this scenario there is usually plenty of heals on them that a crit or two sneaking in should never kill them. And Redoubt has a much better chance of proccing to help null it.

I never said crit immunity wasn't important, but people freaking out about being 480, even 470 defense after the patch is just silly. Nor is it hard to fix without losing many stats.

[Helgi]

Source: tuffmuffin If you block you cannot be crit. The point being with Holy Shield active Paladins get 30% (More with the Libram) extra Block and getting 72.4 avoidance + base block so every hit would be a miss, dodge, parry or block is a joke. No boss can chew through an entire Holy Shield in the time it takes to refresh it.

Somehow I never thought of that.

So let me see if I understand what your saying... (keep in mind its 1:20am so who knows if this is even close to correct).

If a tank had a %block + %parry + %dodge = 100%... then the attacks made against that tank had to be one of those three things, therefore removing everything else from the attack table. Assuming the mob attacking the tank was the same level.

[Dunmail]

Don't forget new gear as well, a couple of new blues swapped into existing epics will probably be enough of a buffer for people down a few points. Given avoidance and other items carried over it won't be that bad, especially throwing shockwaves stun into trash and not eating crushes. Bosses may be interesting though, but at T6 level anticipation is something to ponder over with gear, even just for a bit more rage.

[tuffmuffin]

Source: Helgi Somehow I never thought of that. So let me see if I understand what your saying... (keep in mind its 1:20am so who knows if this is even close to correct). If a tank had a %block + %parry + %dodge = 100%... then the attacks made against that tank had to be one of those three things, therefore removing everything else from the attack table. Assuming the mob attacking the tank was the same level.

Yes, except throw in the % Miss too. The same principle went for people that aimed for an "uncrushable" set, most people usually don't turn around to see it works for crits as well since currently reaching the 490 Defense is extremely easy. It'll still be easy come 3.0, but the newer tanks will still see crits a little later than they normally would unless they keep high defense trinkets such as the Adamantite Figurine (SL) or Dabiri's Enigma (NS quest)
Although this really only works for Paladins since a Warrior getting that much avoidance + block wouldn't exactly be ideal due to rage starvation and their other stats could be too gimp. Block Rating was the most common stat people used for sets like this since it's cheapest

[Kazeyonoma]

bah, i just wear part pvp gear, crit problem solved =]

[Satrina]

Source: tuffmuffin Yes, except throw in the % Miss too. The same principle went for people that aimed for an "uncrushable" set, most people usually don't turn around to see it works for crits as well

Because using that method, your crit immunity goes away if you are stunned, disarmed, immobilised, have your back to the mob (or the server thinks you do), are simply attacked from behind, sit down, or are silenced (for paladins), etc. Crit immunity from defense is unaffected by all of those.

Not such a big deal in a 5 man, absolutely. For a raid tank it is a big deal.

[tuffmuffin]

Except the only raid bosses that do those are after you should be well above the defense cap (With maybe the except of Maiden of Virtue for paladins, but even then it isn't hard to keep Holy Shield up between silences and easy enough to be above the defense cap by then) Trash never hits hard enough where a crit due to some mechanic like that would be remotely near fatal unless the tank is trying to be a superhero.

Only mobs I can think of off the top of my head that disarm are the rogues in BT if you get parried and the Ethereals before Netherspite (easily crit immune by Netherspite). If you have your back to a mob in a raid you need to be booted (trash is understandable, but only momentarily). Sitting down is universal, it doesn't matter what defense you have you will be crit. If you're immobilised you can still turn etc. so that's gone. I think you meant incapacitated/frozen. Those are normally an aggro drop or don't last long enough it would be an issue.

Valid points, yes, but hardly arguable.

[Satrina]

We can trade arguments about "this boss doesn't do that/this boss does that" or "this shouldn't happen or you suck/but it can happen and here's how" all day, but that's not the point at all. Do you really want to be the one risking your raid on a chance? I mean yeah, a crit getting through probably isn't the end of the world, although you speak of lame RNG giving multiple crushes... why not a crush and a crit from said lame RNG? But at that one point where the dust clears and the raidleader asks what happened, and the healers go "bob got crit and we couldn't recover"... awkward.

(That said, yes, the example I had in mind was Fathom-Lord's iceblock thing when I said immobilised.)

In any case, the addition of diminishing returns on dodge and parry in 3.0 will make the idea of uncrittable through the strategy formerly known as passively uncrushable a lot more difficult from the get-go, and probably further out of reach for most of the people you are talking about, than just sucking it up and getting 490 defense (edit: or subbing in a bit of resilience which is more crit reduction point for point than defense.) It'll also open that gap to crits that much more for anyone who doesn't re-gear to be uncrittable.