03-04-2008, 02:46 AM
|  | Prot War | | Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 959
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thanks for this post. puts alot of information that people ask on a regular basis into one little area
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03-04-2008, 02:55 AM
|  | Gosh! | | Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 519
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Just fyi, the build linked under item 5.3 is not a 12/5/44 build.
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03-04-2008, 07:09 AM
|  | TankSpot Administrator | | Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Tacoma, Wa
Posts: 7,870
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Rofl, nice catch.
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03-09-2008, 06:21 AM
| | Mattdeeze | | Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Vallejo, CA
Posts: 154
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In your 5.1 spec Damage Reduction (for pure damage reduction) couldn't the 5 point put into cruelty be put into Iron Will? I know that the most damage i take is when i am stunned. 5% crit at a 5 point cost is hard to resist, but I prefer to depend upon steady threat thru +hit and expertise rather than hope i get a crit here and there. and a resisted stun can definately be a raid saver.
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03-25-2008, 02:58 PM
| | New Registrant | | Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 6
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I question the use of Mordok's build for leveling warriors. I've carefully read Mordok's "Warrior Leveling Demystified" guide (multiple times) as I am new to both the Warrior class and MMO's in general. As I understand that discussion, Mordok recommends a DW Fury build with at least one crusader enchant running on a weapon. He recommends (although he doesn't have the data to back it up because all his alts ran enchants) a 2h fury or arms build for those of us who do not have the luxury ($$) to run with a crusader-enchanted blue constantly.
I think its important to be upfront about this fact of Mordok's build especially for leveling warriors because Mordok's guide doesn't make that 100% explicit, although in subsequent edits Mordok has clarified a bit. I still don't think it is as clear as it needs to be though. I read the guide as a complete warcraft beginner and just took the DW build on blind faith.
It would be great to test out the various specs without the expensive enchants. Midway through lvl 38 I respecced into a 2h Fury build, and compared my DW fury DPS against my 2h fury dps. My results indicate that DW fury still might be viable, but I had some spec mistakes in my DW build (not too eggregious). I wasted 2 points in piercing howl and blood craze and hadn't spent my lvl 38 talent point. Also, I still haven't perfected my slam rotation/timing. Additionally I took the whilwind SWORD without looking at the Swing time (still kicking myself for that!), and had to buy a slower green axe from the AH, so my 2h weapon is not as good as it should be. Thus, I'm not sure how accurate my data is.
If anyone has DPS data on the different builds *without* enchants, I would love to see it.
Last edited by demuck; 03-25-2008 at 04:19 PM..
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03-25-2008, 03:33 PM
|  | CM and Wall-O-Text'er | | Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 9,253
| | Source: mattdeeze
In your 5.1 spec Damage Reduction (for pure damage reduction) couldn't the 5 point put into cruelty be put into Iron Will? I know that the most damage i take is when i am stunned. 5% crit at a 5 point cost is hard to resist, but I prefer to depend upon steady threat thru +hit and expertise rather than hope i get a crit here and there. and a resisted stun can definately be a raid saver.
| the crit is there for threat generation moreso than for rage.
a white hit crit isn't gonna do much, true you'll take damage for most of your rage, but the 5% crit nearly doubles a tanks standard crit%, which is good because this means all your threat abilities that can crit, just got their chance to crit doubled as well. Shield Slam, Devastate, Heroic Strike, Revenge. The 15% chance to resist stun is iffy at best because there aren't TOO many mobs that truly stun, and a lot of them don't count as stuns, they count as another strange mechanic.
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03-28-2008, 11:55 AM
| | New Registrant | | Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1
| | Source: demuck
I question the use of Mordok's build for leveling warriors. I've carefully read Mordok's "Warrior Leveling Demystified" guide (multiple times) as I am new to both the Warrior class and MMO's in general. As I understand that discussion, Mordok recommends a DW Fury build with at least one crusader enchant running on a weapon. He recommends (although he doesn't have the data to back it up because all his alts ran enchants) a 2h fury or arms build for those of us who do not have the luxury ($$) to run with a crusader-enchanted blue constantly.
I think its important to be upfront about this fact of Mordok's build especially for leveling warriors because Mordok's guide doesn't make that 100% explicit, although in subsequent edits Mordok has clarified a bit. I still don't think it is as clear as it needs to be though. I read the guide as a complete warcraft beginner and just took the DW build on blind faith.
It would be great to test out the various specs without the expensive enchants. Midway through lvl 38 I respecced into a 2h Fury build, and compared my DW fury DPS against my 2h fury dps. My results indicate that DW fury still might be viable, but I had some spec mistakes in my DW build (not too eggregious). I wasted 2 points in piercing howl and blood craze and hadn't spent my lvl 38 talent point. Also, I still haven't perfected my slam rotation/timing. Additionally I took the whilwind SWORD without looking at the Swing time (still kicking myself for that!), and had to buy a slower green axe from the AH, so my 2h weapon is not as good as it should be. Thus, I'm not sure how accurate my data is.
If anyone has DPS data on the different builds *without* enchants, I would love to see it.
| If you read his guide and pay attention. He states to take 2 gathering skills for making money. Later on in it he says do not waste gold on armor and fancey enchants you can get the armor from your quests, with the exception of your weapons if done right with 2 gatherer skills money realy quickly becomes no object. well lol less of one anyway. as an example i have a lvl 30 priest nothing major and i started playing with the mindset if its not a reward or a drop i dont need it. at lvl 20 the time a warrior would start to dual wield i had just shy of 100g. his profesions are skinning and mining. albiet hes no were top notch for his lvl as far as equipment goes but at lvl 20 hes already got mount money and seeing how fast you go through the first 20 imagine at 40 what you could have considering thats about the lvl equipment starts staying around alot longer.
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03-29-2008, 11:12 AM
| | New Registrant | | Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 6
| | | Funding the Crusader Enchant Build
Source: rayzhell
If you read his guide and pay attention. He states to take 2 gathering skills for making money. Later on in it he says do not waste gold on armor and fancey enchants you can get the armor from your quests, with the exception of your weapons if done right with 2 gatherer skills money realy quickly becomes no object. well lol less of one anyway. as an example i have a lvl 30 priest nothing major and i started playing with the mindset if its not a reward or a drop i dont need it. at lvl 20 the time a warrior would start to dual wield i had just shy of 100g. his profesions are skinning and mining. albiet hes no were top notch for his lvl as far as equipment goes but at lvl 20 hes already got mount money and seeing how fast you go through the first 20 imagine at 40 what you could have considering thats about the lvl equipment starts staying around alot longer.
| Rayzhell, I appreciate your response to your post and I agree with you. 2 gathering professions would certainly alleviate the cost, however, I think you might be mixing up Mordok and Ciderhelm. I think Cider's guide recommends gathering professions for those w/o high level alts to fund their gear-dependent warrior. Mordok's guide, however, is completely silent as to profession recommendations. Anyways, I believe Mordok used his lvl 70 warlock to fund/farm his test character's weapons and enchants. I did a quick search on the "Warrior Leveling Demystified" (ctrl. f) and the words profession, mining, herb, gathering, or their cognates do not appear in the guide. I might be wrong though. If Mordok has a profession recommendation I'd love to read it.
Additionally, as I've read on the forums, warriors are one of the most gear dependent classes, so the if-its-not-a-drop-or-quest-reward gearing philosphy might be less effective for a warrior, althogh certainly doable. Sounds like priests might not be as gear dependent. Right now I have herbalism/alchemy, which I am enjoying as a noob warrior b/c the potions/elixers compensate for my inexperience. I don't know if I could handle the tedium of 2 gathering professions, although herbs/skinning might be tolerable. As I said at the beginning, I think your point is valid, and it would definitely make running enchants more viable (probably depending on the server, though).
From reading the responses to Mordok's post on the WoW community site, I don't think I'm the only one that would rather not have to drop between 60 and 250 G (depending on your server and in addition to the time/cost of farming blue weapons) on an enchant for a weapon that will be used at the most through 10 levels. At points Mordok has *2* yes 2 crusader enchanted weapons running. Indeed, that's his ultimate conclusion -- a DW build allows for dual enchanting as well as the DW dps bonuses, which is what ultimately makes his version of dual wielding superior to 2h builds. In fairness to Mordok, there are times when he only rolls with a single crusader enchant on his DW build, and the DPS still outperforms a crusader-enchanget 2h build.
My point is that Mordok is not as up-front about his enchants as affecting his dps as I think is warranted, and Ciderhelm's adoption of Mordok's build and Leveling data doesn't even mention the enchants--very misleading.
I don't doubt that this holds true for non-enchanted builds, I'd just like to see some proof. I may save up some ($$) and do further testing. I don't have the kind of time (or patience) Mordok has, so my testing will have to be much more limited in scope, though. Until I see some concrete data, I remain a bit skeptical.
Last edited by demuck; 03-29-2008 at 11:20 AM..
Reason: new points/edits
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04-04-2008, 06:36 PM
| | New Registrant | | Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1
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I also loved the guide (Great work Mordok) and found it very very useful.
However the assumption throughout that anyone levelling a Warrior will be able to afford duel Crusader is a bit... irritating. I haven't been playing for years, and don't have tons of gold, hell, I've only got one level 70. I know warriors are gear-dependant, but come on... There are surely alternatives that people could look into? How would the data look if the warriors had levelled without any enchants at all?
Basically, if you're going to make a guide about levelling a character (and present numbers to support it), don't assume from the word go that everyone can gear them up the same way as you can. Don't get me wrong, it's a wonderful article, and far more than I could ever be bothered to research, but as demuck says... maybe make it more clear that Crusader is an essential part of the guide that might make it slightly inaccurate if you don't have it.
Last edited by Ciderhelm; 04-05-2008 at 04:51 AM..
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04-05-2008, 04:43 AM
| | TankSpot Administrator | | Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Tacoma, Wa
Posts: 7,870
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I've been following the responses, and I appreciate them. I will not be editing the talent recommendation until evidence is presented on the impact of Crusader.
1) If a person reads this site and is just looking to level as fast as possible, the advice is to take two professions and get Crusader. That's the most efficient, and the leveling talent build reflects that.
2) If a person isn't as interested in leveling as fast as possible -- which is the case if you'd choose the less efficient leveling build -- then they're here to learn detailed information about their class and about leveling. If they are doing that, then they've read both the analysis and the counter-arguments.
3) Evidence is required before ruling anything on Crusader. Please bear in mind the enchant is PPM-based and will proc more often with a two-handed weapon using instant attacks than it will with a single one-handed weapon. When there are two Crusader enchanted weapons, the off-hand is substantially less likely to proc. This doesn't change that dual Crusader is a great asset, but it muddies the water enough that it's not cut-and-dry. Source: Sethis
Basically, if you're going to make a guide about levelling a character (and present numbers to support it), don't assume from the word go that everyone can gear them up the same way as you can. Don't get me wrong, it's a wonderful article, and far more than I could ever be bothered to research, but as demuck says... maybe make it more clear that Crusader is an essential part of the guide that might make it slightly inaccurate if you don't have it.
| There are people who will spend more time looking for someone to give them a concrete answer than the difference it would have taken them to level a slightly less optimal spec to 70. This is true for every other facet of the game as well.
The goal is to create a quick answer, then point them to a resource if they want the details, the counter-arguments, the exceptions to the rule. People who care are going to read these counter-arguments you guys are making, and that's a good thing. But not providing a solid answer quickly makes the search for reliable information harder for some visitors.
Last edited by Ciderhelm; 04-05-2008 at 04:53 AM..
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04-07-2008, 06:26 PM
| | New Registrant | | Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 6
| | | Maybe I was wrong
Source: Ciderhelm
I will not be editing the talent recommendation until evidence is presented on the impact of Crusader.
| Good call Cider. We've all read Mordok's post. As it turns out, even without crusader enchants, a DW fury build might put out more dps than an equivalent 2h fury build.
As a new leveling warrior I wholeheartedly accepted Mordok's recommendation to dual wield fury while leveling. As I learned what was up and particularly how expensive a crusader enchant is, I began to doubt the accuracy of his data. In fact, for a leveling warrior running without enchants, Mordok recommends a 2h Fury (or arms) build based on weapon availability mostly for horde weapons.
I took this recommendation, respecced 2h fury and was disappointed by the result. My dps wasn't as explosive as I expected. So I decided to run a very limited test. I killed the same mob over and over and recorded my DPS as a 2h Fury warrior. Then, without even respeccing, I did the same thing while dual wielding. My results might suprise you. My DPS was actually higher without even respeccing! Then, another suprise, I respecced back to DW fury and my DPS didn't increase all that much!
If you'd like to quarrell with my data I request that you run the same test (leveling warriors only obviously). Just post complete stat data so we can evaluate how your gear is affecting your DPS.
Here's my data:
For all data sets I was a Lvl 42 Warrior vs. Lvl 43 and 44 Naga warrior mobs (in STV). 2h spec
build: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Weapon: Sword of the Magistrate The World of Warcraft Armory
STR: 204
Attack Power (w/ my shout on) 676
Crit%: 14.56 (yes I was in berzerker stance) DPS 83.5 over 31 mobs changing weapons altered the stats as follows
Weapon:
MH: Greater Scythe of the Boar (22.1 dps +4 Str 2.8 speed)
OH: Crescent of Forlorn Spirits (22.8 dps increase critical strike rating +8 1.6 speed)
STR: 200
Attack Power (w/ shout): 668
Crit% = 15.56 DPS 95.5 over 23 mobs Then, after respeccing DW my stats were:
Build: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (there may be some mistakes, but these mistakes only support my conclusion  ).
STR: 200
Attack Power (w/ shout): 668
Crit %: 15.52 DPS 98.1 over 46 mobs
Now for the disclaimers. I'm not perfect at the improved slam attack rotation, but I do get the basic premise. Use quartz (swing timer), slam right after a melee attack (before if you time it for lag), use other abilities as rage permits but prioritize slam. My inexperience may count for *some* of the dps discrepancy, but not all of it. Also, there are times when my shout expires and I don't notice, so I'm not perfect there either, but that was throughout all the testing (usually at the first of a series. I'm good at remembering after I start), so I think it balanced out.
I think that my level (42) was a bit high to fully confirm Mordok's conclusion sans the ($$) enchants, but it is firming up.
(p.s. Mordok, I'm interested in your thoughts if you read this)
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04-08-2008, 02:08 AM
| | TankSpot Administrator | | Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Tacoma, Wa
Posts: 7,870
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Demuck, I guess I'm just tired, but are you saying the recommended leveling spec (DW) is fine?
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04-08-2008, 02:10 PM
| | New Registrant | | Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 6
| | Source: Ciderhelm
Demuck, I guess I'm just tired, but are you saying the recommended leveling spec (DW) is fine?
| Yes. My own data disproved my criticism. What's more it somewhat confirms Mordok's theory even without the crusader enchants.
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10-23-2008, 11:11 AM
| | New Registrant | | Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1
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Hey Guys,
I didnt check any of the other ones but the prot builds at the end aren't prot builds...if you click on them they're all mixed builds w/ a slight favor toward fury. Anyway know where I can see the real prot builds? I'm lvling my first warrior and I could use the info. Thanks.
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10-23-2008, 06:29 PM
| | CM and Wall-O-Text'er | | Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 9,253
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this guide is dated and hasn't been updated so the changes to the talent calculator has thus borked Cider's original posts unfortunately.
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I will never be a kaz.. no one can reach the utter awesomeness of you.
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01-07-2009, 01:22 AM
| | Orc Bulwark | | Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Brussels
Posts: 61
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Bump ... can we expect to have the templates updated? I'm searching for good prot templates  |
01-08-2009, 02:00 PM
| | Established Registrant | | Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 152
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Grak, m'man... [in the same section no less] we have WotLK Prot Warrior guide
There are some variant thoughts and threads around but this should help you get started.
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03-16-2009, 12:09 PM
| | New Registrant | | Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1
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all the specs above are not what the title says they are suppose to be..
kind of pointless...
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