[Elorius]

Although Landsoul's spreadsheet shows that stacking arp will increase my dps, but in real raid, it just seems that my fury dps decreases ever since I got grim toll. I swapped mirror of the truth for the grim toll. And it seems I am always rage starving ever since. Have I hit too low crit chance which is at 32.25% unbuffed? And I just got new cape which will bring me to 31.87% crit but a bit more ap and arp. Is there any fury war that experience the same thing?

[Koringul]

Rage starvation is situational.

The most common reason for rage starving is rotation, not gear. Spec can also effect this.

First i'll talk about rotation. When i say situational, i mean that if a boss fight does not have a lot of raid damage (iron council), you have to manage your rage carefully. The most typical reason a fury warrior will starve themselves is by abusing heroic strike in a situation that you need to be more conservative with it. In a fight like mimiron, where you are almost constantly taking damage, you can afford to spam HS until you are blue in the face and never run out of rage.

Your crit isn't low, 32 or 33% is plenty unbuffed.

You are however specced a little funky.

Firstly, you have specced yourself into the two lowest rage return talents over time (anger management results in the least amount of rage over time of the three talents we have for this). You also only have 2 points in unbridled wrath. Over the course of time, improved berserker rage results in the most rage per minute, followed by unbridled wrath, followed by anger management. You would end up with more rage generation by moving some points around and putting 2 into improved berserker rage and a few more into unbridled wrath.

Before i can really recommend anything, i have to know if you are specced the way you are for a reason. You can save 2 extra points for rage generation by moving them out of commanding presence. Even if your raid leader makes it your job to keep up comm shout, it's really not that big of a deal to cut one minute off the duration and comm shout one or two extra times per boss fight.

You are also specced into improved cleave. I get why fury warriors do this, it makes your meters look sexy with a glyph of cleave. My question to you is the same one i have for every fury warrior i see do this: are you more concerned with your meters being padded off of trash or for maintaining higher single target damage? You can free up 3 points to do with as you please that will increase your overall single target (ie raid boss) dps. Your call there, but you can pull those 3 points out and use them with the points you take out of commanding presence for unbridled wrath and berserker rage right there.

Thirdly, you have 2 points in improved execute. I personally find that executing is a waste of rage, as i can get an equivalently powerful attack out of a whirlwind for 75 less rage. Some fury warriors stand by execute, i dont' even have it in my action bar. Your call again, but you can end up with 2 more free points by taking these two points out and putting them elsewhere.

If you end up with a few extra points and you want a talent that actually will be a decent raid utility, put them in improved demo shout. Not sure what kind of raid makeup you're running with, but it's actually a significant reduction in damage incoming to the tank.

The thing is you can still leave in your glyph of cleaving without the points in improved cleave. If you're cleave hits 3 targets it's still more dps than HS in trash situations. To my guild it's more important to see big dps numbers on a boss than from trash, we look at each boss fight's specific dps rather than overall. IMO Cleave is just an excuse for undergeared warriors to pad the meters so they don't look so bad, but you have good gear for fury and you don't need that as a crutch.

If you adjust how you use HS situationally and make some adjustments to your spec, i think you'll find your rage problems will become less of an issue.

Fury is actually more complicated than people think, rage management is 50% of our dps. You rage starve yourself and you'll nuke your dps far faster than any spec or gearing issues could ever hope to.

[Elorius]

Thanks for the response.

The first point, putting 2 points on imp berserker rage actually is a good idea but I didn't like it because I would have to spend extra gcd and I always didn't have free gcd when I had infinite rage because slam will always proc up with HS spam. But since it is not the case anymore, I guess this is a good idea.

The second point, actually there are a few of bosses fight where you have to fight trash first such as razorscale, auriya, and thorim. It also helps in mimiron last phase. So with those bosses plus normal trash, I think cleave helps a lot.

Thirdly, I just realize execute is kinda useless on uld. I used to do execute a lot on fight like thadd. But lately, I rarely use execute anymore instead I just keep my rotation. However with next patch coming where they limit 30 rage, execute might be good again to use.

Well back to relating my original question, which one will actually be better for fury when your crit is low, grim toll or mirror?

[gabbu]

Your unbuffed crit is not low, the issue is wearing all plate gear it will be pretty tough to have unbuffed crit >35%.

Regarding the trinket Grim Toll is any day better than MoT, a good question to ask would be are you seeing the DPS drop on same fights in exactly same situation (length of fights, buffs etc etc)? If no than it might be just a chance case.

If yes, you might have to manage your rage better, rage management has become a key part in fury DPS as of now, and as Koringul said above, Improved berserker rage is much better over UW or AM, for my guilds 25 man runs I keep sunders and demo up and still find enough gcd's where I can pop imroved berserker rage.

Another thing I suggest is use your cooldowns (deathwish, racial(if any), recklessness) earlier in the fight so many times you can use them again in the same boss kill.

Even better is (I have started doing this recently and found it to be good) setup power auras to show you Grim Toll proc and as soon as you get the proc, pop DW and Recklessness, you will see some amazing burst right there. This is RNG based but I have rarely seen a fight so far where my Grim Toll did not proc in first 15 secs of fight.

Hope this helps

[Elorius]

Thanks, I will remove AM and imp execute, that will give me 3 point to put into imp beserker rage and another UW.
Now this makes me wonder what kind of dps that I am able to make with my gear. Is it really low because my bad rage management?
Here is my wws report Wow Web Stats

[Kazeyonoma]

bad rage management and gear are the only things that can hinder a fury warrior for dps.

We have a warrior in my guild who has always been BiS and yet puts out much lower #'s than we expect... I tried to fix him by going through his logs and told him he was HS'ing too much so he ended up not hitting his BT's enough (only half the time!). His roommate logged on his char 1 day, and on XT-Hardmode where he normally only does 4.4k dps.... with a rogue player who simply asked me for what was the priorities... put out 7.1k dps.

Rage management is HUGE. whenever you use HS and push back a BT or WW or Slam! you're doing so for a gain of.... 495 damage.

Yep... that's it
HS does 495 damage. the other damage you see? would've happened anyways cuz it was a white swing. Sure you lowered the miss rate by making it a yellow. But for the same rage you could've done a much larger attack, AND still generated a white hit for damage and more rage.

HS is evil.

Go to the dummy
and unbind Heroic Strike.

Seriously do it.

Then just focus on doing WW/BT and keeping track of Slam! procs. Use an addon to track it, I like Mik's Scrolling Battle Text and bind a sound to Slam! so I know when to hit it. And just do that. DONT worry about what your rage bar looks like, just do that until your eyes bleed.

Once you've completely removed HS from your normal attack habits. go ahead and rebind it... and then hit it ONLY when you see your rage is > 70.

[gabbu]

Source: Elorius Thanks, I will remove AM and imp execute, that will give me 3 point to put into imp beserker rage and another UW. Now this makes me wonder what kind of dps that I am able to make with my gear. Is it really low because my bad rage management? Here is my wws report Wow Web Stats

I havent been in a 25 man in such a long time (boo summer attendance) that everytime I DPS (which is hardly these days) I am missing tons of buffs.

But over all looking like your DPS is in good shape, better rage managment and using cooldowns effectively will help a lot. Remember 1 GCD delay on BT/WW is a massive DPS loss.

Suggestion:-

1. Do you have an alternate feet Armor, like say the badge boots or EbonBlade exalted boots?
2. You are overflowing with Hit, you can easily replace boot enchant to 32 AP (small buff)
3. Weapon is big deal for any melee, you have any other weapon in place of Deaths Bite as you dont really need the hit from it? Ironsoul from FL10, or Rune Edge from IC25 are good choices.

Just my 2 cents

EDIT: You just need 2 points for Improved Berserker Rage

[Koringul]

Honestly, cleave will not make or break razorscale or mimiron trash during the boss fight, more important to maximize your single target dps for the boss itself like mimiron phase 4 or razorscale after she's grounded. Your call though.

If you have 100 rage, then you shoulnd't be using zerker rage in your rotation, you don't gain any rage that way cuz you're already capped. Zerker rage is for a fight where you aren't sitting at 100 rage all the time and can be easily thrown into your rotation because if you accidentally rage starve yourself it's the only ability you can actually use, and it is easily fit in between WW BT cd's.

We have to wait and see on execute next patch, they are capping it at 30 rage, but does it still yield the damage of a 100 rage execute? or will it be like executing at 30 rage? we just don't know yet.

Even so, a full execute with it critting at the moment and draining you of 100 rage still does not result in more dps than maintaining your rotation if you have over 4k ap and 33% crit, and you run the risk of rage starving yourself by doing this.

Unbinding HS and practicing on a dummy is a waste of time. There is no boss fight that will give you the same rage generation mechanics as dpsing a target dummy.

HS use is situational. 60 rage is the safe zone to HS, but that means it's safe to do it once unless you know you are gaining a lot of rage afterwards. Spamming HS every time you see 60 rage will rage starve you every time.

If the fight has a lot of incoming raid damage and you know you'll be generating a lot of passive rage (such as mimiron phase 2 and deconstructor), you can spam HS to your hearts content and never go rage starved. But if it's a fight like iron council where you're moving a lot and not necessarily taking a lot of raid damage, you know you won't generate much passive rage so you have to be more conservative with HS.

Rage starvation is the way to most quickly lose a huge amount of dps. Imp Zerker Rage also acts as an "oh shit" button for rage starving yourself.

[Elorius]

To gabbu,
1. I don't see how ebonblade boots gonna increase my dps. The boots I have now is like second BiS after 25 eoe boot.
2. With me wanting more rage, decreasing hit and crit is not going to help. Beside according to Landsoul's spreadsheet, my current enchant gives the most dps.
3. Yea I have been trying to get better weapon but no luck so far lol.

To Koringul,
I will stick with cleave right now but thanks for the input though. Also I am having a little competition with the rogues lol.
About the practicing on dummy, I think you miss the point that Kazeyonoma made, he just wanted me to get out of the habit from spamming HS. But yea, I know it is useless to check my rage regenarition from dummy since it doesn't give me extra rage from incoming damage.

[Koringul]

you will not beat an equally geared rogue, period. It's a sad fact.

Warriors of any brand are considered a hybrid class, rogue is a pure dps class, you won't out dps them unless they don't know what they're doing or you have a huge gear advantage over them.

[Beserkergang]

I do have one question about Imp Berserker Rage. This ability gives free rage every time you use it. If you wait too long to use this ability (given that your rage is not staying at a constant 100) wouldn't your dps go down from potential HS that you could have thrown into your rotation with the extra rage? Or am I missing a key point?

[kwag]

Use it at your earliest convenience, but never at the expense of BT, WW or Slam, nor when you have a good bit of rage already. It shouldn't be too tough to tell when that is. But, to answer directly, yes, if you let it sit unused while you have no other ability off cooldown, you are wasting rage generation. If your question is concerning fights with fears on intervals, then you will forget the rage generation aspect and just save it for when you need to immune the fear cast. The rage lost in letting the skill sit idle is worth less damage than the DPS time lost running around feared.

[Erkebrand]

Regarding the use of IBR vs AM the answer is not as clearcut as some posters would lead you to believe.

The fact is that IBR does yield more rage than AM(1 more ragepoint every 6 seconds), but requires use of a GCD. Therefore some players might find AM more manageble, since its passive and your dont have to weave it into your rotation along with sunders etc.

For most players i would assume that the use of IBR instead of AM would result in an actual rageloss due to poor GCD-management.

[Erkebrand]

Source: Koringul you will not beat an equally geared rogue, period. It's a sad fact. Warriors of any brand are considered a hybrid class, rogue is a pure dps class, you won't out dps them unless they don't know what they're doing or you have a huge gear advantage over them.

On most single-target bosses no...but definately possible on a number of other boss-encounters i WOTLK - especially encounters where there are an element of adds. Pls check WMO world class rankings...WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay

EDIT: now seeing this thread is a few month old :-S

[Titangrip]

Interesting thread.

I currently have 3/3 Imp Cleave and looking at some of the posts here, some of you don't like it, some of you like it.

My talents

Above is my talent spec. Cookie Cutter 18/53 with 3 points into imp cleave.

My raid has Vindication, which is a free demo shout. So no point putting my 3 points in cleave into Demo Shout.

My question is,if you were in my shoes, what would you put the 3 points in imp cleave into? Imp Zerker Rage? I hardly get rage starved nowadays, looking at Digits tick by.

[Erkebrand]

If you want to min/max your spec 3/3 improved cleave is a very good option on every boss, where adds or multible "boss-aspects"(e.g. JARR/TWINS/ANUB) are an important factor in the encounter, which basically means a lot of the newer raidcontent and 3/5 bosses in ToTC.