[Rishkkin]

Source: Rishkkin I've added my comments over there

If MS is off CD and low rage, save for MS --> Slam at that point it will be a DPS increase, don't waste a GCD waiting for rage. if > 35 Rage MS --> I'd change that for 45 reason being MS --> Slam (if nothing has procced following your MS, you'll have enough for slam Other than that, I'll make sure to give it a try.

after some testing :

Definitely shoot for 45 rage before using MS unless your next white swing is in < 1.5 sec + latency Rend : Track YOUR own Rend, not just rend (with 2 warriors are present it doesn't work well if the other warrior also uses Rend) Try to NOT waste proc : a buff that is under 2 seconds (SD or TFB) > anything else

[greendragonempire]

Hi imp execute isn't worth it for that many wasted talent points

use this build instead

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

benefits

no wasted talent points - perfect synergy

removed imp shouts - pointless with pallies to buff kings/might
removed parry - pointless
removed tact mast - pointless, i switched stances a total of ZERO times last night as dps arms
removed imp slam - dont use it, imp hs + incite = good

btw my dps is 3.5k on 10man uldar with is pretty decent, most people should see a dps increase with this spec

[Kazeyonoma]

how can you say there's no wasted talent points when you clearly have 3/3 imp tclap. How does this benefit aside from throwing out a tclap when there's like 10+ mobs swarming?

Imp slam is my preferential attack over imp HS. it doesn't wait for my next white swing, it doesn't prevent my white swing from generating rage. It simply pauses it for .5 seconds while i burn some rage. Perfect.

I still like imp shouts because as a member of my raid, it makes sense for me to be able to provide the best possible HP buff to the game. Just because it doesn't guarantee that I'll make use of bshout doesn't mean I can't make sure my raid has more HP on top of kings.

reducing the cost of execute by 5 rage adds a little more than 150 damage to each of your executes. and SD procs are my top priority move. Improving the damage on that is my biggest concern. increasing my crit chance with heroic strike is nice, only if i'm using heroic strike often enough.

[Bogota]

ok noob dpsers here. I play a tank on tv but recently got a dual spec. Being that I just got all my talent points refunded I thought I'd try arms and greatly appriciate this thread for advice. Back in vanilla wow I had spec'd arms once upon a time and I used a swing timer mod to time my slams. Back then it was a total pain and I was terrible at it.

I see that OP mentions using a swing timer in his post, but in the subsequent discussions of attact rotations, no one mentions it. Is using a swing timer still necessary to get a decent rotation out of arms or can I just use the GCD management method mentioned in post 28 by Kazeyonoma - link to post:Quick 'n Dirty Arms Guide ?

[Rishkkin]

A swing timer isn't mandatory

*However* wih practice it helps you make quick decision in low rage situation.

Perfect example :

You are at 32 Rage, Rend is running, No Sudden Deth Proc, No Taste For Blood Proc are Active.

MS is OFF the CD

You have 2 choices :

Use MS and be left with 2 rage until you next white hit connects or use slam twice before and be left with those same 2 rage points.

Assuming you have no Swing timer, you will most likely be better of using slam and avoid a possible GCD blank (a GCD where you don't have enough rage to use any instant ability)

On the other hand, if you have a Swing timer, you could see how much remaining time is left until your next swing. If that remaining time is under 1.5 sec + latency, you are better off using MS, since you know you will have enough rage on your next GCD to fuel your abilities. If you are more than 1.5 sec + Latency from swinging, you are better off using Slam. That way, on the next GCD (after the slam, you will either be very close to a new Swing (less than 1.5sec + latency), or had your white swing connect, leaving you with enough rage to use an instant attack (MS) or if you were lucky, a SD / TFB proc

Hope this helps

[greendragonempire]

Source: Kazeyonoma how can you say there's no wasted talent points when you clearly have 3/3 imp tclap. How does this benefit aside from throwing out a tclap when there's like 10+ mobs swarming? Imp slam is my preferential attack over imp HS. it doesn't wait for my next white swing, it doesn't prevent my white swing from generating rage. It simply pauses it for .5 seconds while i burn some rage. Perfect. I still like imp shouts because as a member of my raid, it makes sense for me to be able to provide the best possible HP buff to the game. Just because it doesn't guarantee that I'll make use of bshout doesn't mean I can't make sure my raid has more HP on top of kings. reducing the cost of execute by 5 rage adds a little more than 150 damage to each of your executes. and SD procs are my top priority move. Improving the damage on that is my biggest concern. increasing my crit chance with heroic strike is nice, only if i'm using heroic strike often enough.

you dont tc on boss fights ..? did bosses become immune to tc in a recent patch and i didnt hear about it?

and lets assume you use sd 50 times a fight and imp hs 100 times, can you theorycraft which will come out to more dmg?

sd 50* 150 = 7500 OR
hs 100 * 15% chance for x2 dmg = 75000

hmmm, tough choice

[Rishkkin]

don't forget HS completely strips your rage gen for your next white hit.

That means, this is rage you won't be able to use later on. So each HS has an hidden cost, I think I remember reading that HS's hidden cost has been evaluated at 41 rage.

That 41 rage is A lot of potential dmg.

[Skyborn]

Yeah, I hardly ever heroic strike w/ Arms. Pretty much just during bloodlust or when I see my rage bar filling up faster than I can use it.

I also haven't been TClapping at all... but probably should now that I think about it. For some strange reason I assumed it was a defensive stance only skill.

[Rishkkin]

I pretty much use HS when I'm above 60 rage and unable to go below that (be it because I'm overflowing with rage or simply that I don't have any SD procs going on for a while and I'm slowly going > 70 rage, which makes all my white hit waste a few rage points.

In that kind of situation, I use HS once to get back to 40 rage or so.

As far as TC goes, I let our Tank use it since he has the improved version, On the other hand, I'm the one providing shouts.

[Rishkkin]

Ho and Kaze, Sticky ?

I think it deserves it

[Kazeyonoma]

swing timer is relatively useless now since Slam no longer resets the swing timer, it just pauses it, the only real use is when to fire off certain skills, namely execute, because if you're about to execute a lot of your rage away, but a white hit is coming relatively soon, you can be safe that you'll have rage before your GCD is up.

[greendragonempire]

Source: Rishkkin I pretty much use HS when I'm above 60 rage and unable to go below that (be it because I'm overflowing with rage or simply that I don't have any SD procs going on for a while and I'm slowly going > 70 rage, which makes all my white hit waste a few rage points. In that kind of situation, I use HS once to get back to 40 rage or so. As far as TC goes, I let our Tank use it since he has the improved version, On the other hand, I'm the one providing shouts.

I'm in the opposite situation, we dont have any warriors cept for me, i'm both the arms spec war and the dual spec war tank.

we have more than enough pallies/warlocks for both might and imp

the case is always, either, im overflowing with rage waiting for sd to proc, or i have so many procs using up my rage im wiating for gcds

basically this spec and playstyle works for me, i dont have to worry about micromanaging slam, and i'm pulling 3.5k dps in 10man uldar.

[Kazeyonoma]

I only use Heroic Strike sparingly, and only when I have excess rage that I can't burn down with imp slams. 100 hs's? cmon, I doubt I throw out that many in any given fight at all.

In fact, lets look:

WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay in Engrish

So I'll admit, i used HS more than I used Slam. there are pockets where you'll execute twice or thrice in a row and never have a use for slam. 44 executes vs. 17 heroic strikes. Pretty clear the winner is here, and because executes are capped out in how much rage it'll consume i'm basically gonna spend 30 rage if i'm > 30 rage whether I have imp execute or not. but with imp execute, i get 5 of that rage bonus.

And imp Tclap? I'm sorry but what tanking class doesn't have a tclap affect themselves that they apply? If my prot warrior said he wanted me to tclap for him, sure i'd respec for him because that's what being a raider is about to me, but he doesn't, so I don't.

so lets look at those same numbers now. You're multiplying your "50" execute scenario times the 150 damage i gain, yet you're somehow multiplying 100 * 15 * 2, where is this magical 75000 coming from? Remember, that the white hit was going to happen ANYWAYS. so lets just look at the bonus damage of heroic strike.

and lets use real numbers. I probably HS'd more than I should've on this fight to be honest, but lets use it anyways.

44 executes * 150 damage = 6600 extra damage
17 heroic strikes * 495 * 2 * .15= 2524.5 extra damage.

Hmmm... tough choice.

[greendragonempire]

Source: Kazeyonoma I only use Heroic Strike sparingly, and only when I have excess rage that I can't burn down with imp slams. 100 hs's? cmon, I doubt I throw out that many in any given fight at all. In fact, lets look: WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay in Engrish So I'll admit, i used HS more than I used Slam. there are pockets where you'll execute twice or thrice in a row and never have a use for slam. 44 executes vs. 17 heroic strikes. Pretty clear the winner is here, and because executes are capped out in how much rage it'll consume i'm basically gonna spend 30 rage if i'm > 30 rage whether I have imp execute or not. but with imp execute, i get 5 of that rage bonus. And imp Tclap? I'm sorry but what tanking class doesn't have a tclap affect themselves that they apply? If my prot warrior said he wanted me to tclap for him, sure i'd respec for him because that's what being a raider is about to me, but he doesn't, so I don't. so lets look at those same numbers now. You're multiplying your "50" execute scenario times the 150 damage i gain, yet you're somehow multiplying 100 * 15 * 2, where is this magical 75000 coming from? Remember, that the white hit was going to happen ANYWAYS. so lets just look at the bonus damage of heroic strike. and lets use real numbers. I probably HS'd more than I should've on this fight to be honest, but lets use it anyways. 44 executes * 150 damage = 6600 extra damage 17 heroic strikes * 495 * 2 * .15= 2524.5 extra damage. Hmmm... tough choice.

sorry in my scenario i use hs MORE like a 2:1 ratio as sd because i don't use slam.

my hs crits for 5000ish?, a bonus of 2500 damage, * 15%


so thus out of 100 strikes (easy ratio to remember) 15 of them give me 2500 bonus damage.

37500 (sorry my first number was off assuming 10,000dmg crits)

so 37500:6600 OR assuming a 1:1 ratio of sd to hs (which is not the case)

18750:6600

so the point is, incite returns 3 times the benefit as the points in imp exe, not only that but you dont waste 7 talent points.

[robowarriorx]

you don't use slam? O.o

[Kazeyonoma]

you're still doing it wrong, you're basing it on the entire damage of your hs crit. but all HS does is make it hit for 495 more damage. THAT is what you need to double up. because THAT is what is getting increased. just multiplying the 2500 damage is wrong.

[Pesko]

My rage bar is full mostly all the time allrdy.
prehaps i should start using abit HS from time to time.
Anyways, t7 set bonus = 10% more slam dmg. makes it up for the additional HS does.

[Arretheil]

I'm going to give arms a try for my 2nd spec after Fury. I've got mostly Naxx 10 stuff, some 25, but my weps are Colossal Cleavers. I've got the Titansteel Destroyer hanging around as well - it seems like I should be spec'ing maces, and going with that until I gather up some more ArP stuff (have 104 base w/o mace spec now) - correct?

[Rishkkin]

Source: Kazeyonoma swing timer is relatively useless now since Slam no longer resets the swing timer, it just pauses it, the only real use is when to fire off certain skills, namely execute, because if you're about to execute a lot of your rage away, but a white hit is coming relatively soon, you can be safe that you'll have rage before your GCD is up.

I'm sorry kaze but I disagree with you ; yes a swing timer isn't mandatory BUT it is useful.

I know slam just pauses the swing timer rather than resetting it like it did in BC (Thank god for that change).

However, if you wanna maximize your Damage in every possible way, a swing timer will allow you to make a better choice between using MS if it's off the GCD versus using slam.

The example I showed above is a good one.

I'm not lucky enough to have a WF-Bot or a Frost DK in my raid, so no 20% haste for me. That means most of the time, my swing rate is around 3 sec (still using Demise). If I'm sitting at 32 rage and still have 2.8 seconds to go before my next white swing, I'm better off slamming than using MS, because if I use MS I'm sitting at 2 rage for 1.3 seconds before I can really use my next GCD.

See where I'm going with that ?

[Daavos]

Source: greendragonempire Hi imp execute isn't worth it for that many wasted talent points use this build instead Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft benefits no wasted talent points - perfect synergy removed imp shouts - pointless with pallies to buff kings/might removed parry - pointless removed tact mast - pointless, i switched stances a total of ZERO times last night as dps arms removed imp slam - dont use it, imp hs + incite = good btw my dps is 3.5k on 10man uldar with is pretty decent, most people should see a dps increase with this spec

On which one does more damage I'm going to go with elitest jerks and disagree with you. HS is your #2 rage dump after slam - Even if you have spec into incite and improved HS. The only time I'd use HS in a heavy movement fight when Bladestorm is down.

Improved Execute is more damage over a long fight.

In 25 raid should be sitting at 45% crit with buffs, spending spend 8 talent points so you HS has 60% crit is a waste.

removed imp shouts - pointless with pallies to buff kings/might

Commanding Shout is a unique raid buff and offers more health then the warlock one. When you put points into the talent and booming voice you're offering crap load of health to your raid for 3 mins.

removed tact mast - pointless, i switched stances a total of ZERO times last night as dps arms

This is debatable. Also since you switch stances ZERO times last night, I'm assuming you weapon swap for key interupts instead of zerg pummels.


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In-Depth Arms DPS Discussion - Page 32 - Elitist Jerks