[Lizana]

Source: Disruptor Wow Lizana i just wanted to post that but i had to reboot. A fight is not 3 seconds long, it is 5 minutes or longer. And you forget that you exchange for example those 16 hit with 16 arpen that boost your overall damage...

I have no idea at all what this post is trying to say... my second post shows how under a very very very very small % of the time your method would result in a dps increase.

[Tatt]

I am not very good at math, by my own admission, but the one thing I have noticed is bothering me. Krenian came right out and apologized to you Disruptor. He tried to tone down the thread, turn it back into a relatively calm discussion. ACCEPT THE BLOODY APOLOGY. Your next words were "Well I can't stand if the math is wrong" or something to that affect. Please just shut up. Maybe your style works for you. Awesome. Maybe you disagree with theirs. Good for you. But when a person who has helped hundreds if not thousands of people learn to do something a little better, with absolutely no payment or profit involved, tries to be civil with you and you continually act like an idiot, no one is going to pay any attention to your math, theory, or point of view. Most people enjoy coming to this site because information can be passed along in the form of opinion and experiences. Telling someone they are flat wrong, no matter what are trying to show you, or how many people agree with it, is just plain rude.

[Dubzil]

Source: Tatt I am not very good at math, by my own admission, but the one thing I have noticed is bothering me. Krenian came right out and apologized to you Disruptor. He tried to tone down the thread, turn it back into a relatively calm discussion. ACCEPT THE BLOODY APOLOGY. Your next words were "Well I can't stand if the math is wrong" or something to that affect. Please just shut up. Maybe your style works for you. Awesome. Maybe you disagree with theirs. Good for you. But when a person who has helped hundreds if not thousands of people learn to do something a little better, with absolutely no payment or profit involved, tries to be civil with you and you continually act like an idiot, no one is going to pay any attention to your math, theory, or point of view. Most people enjoy coming to this site because information can be passed along in the form of opinion and experiences. Telling someone they are flat wrong, no matter what are trying to show you, or how many people agree with it, is just plain rude.

don't listen to tatters, just put the math down (along with a WWS already please, would really like to see what kind of dps you are putting out with this strategy) If you infact have a strategy that outputs more dps we will be glad to see why, but need more than just talk about it.

[Disruptor]

The best math for that is landsouls sheet that is very accurate according to logs. The math is way more complicated because lack of hit and expertise will influence your whole DPS and any skill or style.

Ill look up some logs of my DPS. Im lacking 3% expertise and im totally fine with that. Just raiding 10 hards , ll get that later.

[Lizana]

Okay, Before you posted did 300k sims with DPS sim did each one 3 times, One with 3% dodge chance, but the same amount of arp gained by not geming to cap, and the other with expertise caped minus the arp gained from the red gems... Even stacking excessive (Amounts not currently possible in gearing) for arp, The DPSsim program always had the dps from the expertise caped following standard arms rotation ahead by at least 500 dps compared to an OP specialized rotation and low expertise. 500 dps was the lowest difference the highest difference was upwards of 1200 dps

[Disruptor]

I would not trust anything else than landsouls spreadsheet because he uptaded it yesterday and its accurate to 99,5%.

First of all look at your damage. It should be something like this :

1x% DW DMG
1x% Rend DMG
1x% OP DMG

This dmg is not affected by expertise. Especially expertise will increase the DMG OP and due to more crits DW will stack higher and do more DMG. So good 40~50 % are not affected by expertise. And on other hand expertise can negate the loss of dodges and parries by giving you OP. And since LK you do not lose all your rage after miss or dodge.

DW and Rend are not affected by hit. So misses do not negate the lack by giving you procs and it's only 30~35% so it is more useful than expertise. But anyway when you use that spreadsheet u still get more SEP for ArPen when you stack baseArp as hard as possible without mjol and GT .

It depends if you are comfortable with that way of damaging or not. And it depends on your gear since as long as you have GT or Mjol, Arp wont gain that high SEP. It is interesting though if you are trying to reach 100% base arpen without GT or Mjol. For me its hard to decide because Blizz is screwing anything up. Another disadvantage of GT or Mjol is on most Ulduar encounters you might get that proc when you cant damage. As i calculated you might hit 85~90% ArPen without GT or Mjol but the whole loot table is still not availible and maybe there are some options to increase it to 100%. But anyway it seems that you are hitting higher DPS with 50% arpen and Mjol or GT but in that case you NEED hitcap because arpen got lower Sep than str and hit will always be higher than str. But expertise will always be under str just because of those facts i posted. 50% dmg is not affected by expertise and it grants you OP procs.

Especially now where rage generation is not normalised anymore haste has increased in it's role and 1 or 2 misses wont harm your rotation that hard because with 10% spec and 20% buff haste you wont feel huge problems with continuing your rotation.

[Kelstet]

Source: Disruptor I would not trust anything else than landsouls spreadsheet because he uptaded it last day and its accurate to 99,5%. First of all look at your damage. It should be something like this : 1x% DW DMG 1x% Rend DMG 1x% OP DMG This dmg is not affected by expertise. Especially expertise will increase the DMG OP and due to more crits DW will stack higher and do more DMG. So good 40~50 % are not affected by expertise. And on other hand expertise can negate the loss of dodges and parries by giving you OP. And since LK you do not lose all your rage after miss or dodge. DW and Rend are not affected by hit. So misses do not negate the lack by giving you procs and it's only 30~35% so it is more useful than expertise. But anyway when you use that spreadsheet u still get more SEP for ArPen when you stack baseArp as hard as possible without mjol and GT .

Could you please post up some WWS/WoLogs/WMO's to collaborate your numbers? That would be extremely helpful. Arbitrary spreadsheet postings I believe are not what are being asked for, please provide some of your OWN evidence to support your theories. Thanks.

Kel

[Lizana]

Rend application can be dodged, the crits that proc DW can be dodged, unless they come from OP. Also if you dont hit the target, that implies that you cannot crit (single roll yes yes), if you cannot crit you cannot proc DW or rend.

And since you want to use the spreadsheet and claim its giving you x results, care to post your armory so i can upload you exact gearing into it so i can verify your results. Because from the gearing i have been useing i am still getting a DPS loss. It would greatly help me "prove" you right if you would provide this.

As a side note, DPSsim was updated post 3.1.3 as well...

[Muffin Man]

Overpower can miss as well

[Kazeyonoma]

Posting in a thread to say something is wrong is okay.

Posting in a thread and being rude about it is not okay.

Posting in a thread about mechanics with posted math, refuting you, and you continue to tout that you're right and everyone else is wrong is not okay.

Being asked to post your math, wws and/or armory so we can test it according to your statistics and you continuing to not help us out here, all while spouting off that your way is STILL superior is likewise not okay.

We're trying to be civil with you, but if you don't want to post your information/math for whatever reason than it can't be helped. You're trying to go against what is the establishment. The burden of proof lies on you, NOT us. Any further postings that don't include math or are directly on topic (and no saying my dps is > you is not on topic) will be infractioned and deleted. I've already deleted one of yours in this thread Disruptor.

[RPZip]

the crits that proc DW can be dodged, unless they come from OP. Also if you dont hit the target, you cannot crit, if you cannot crit you cannot proc DW or rend.

Crits can't be dodged outside of special attacks. That's not how the attack table works for autoattacks. "If you don't hit, you can't crit" is also a classic misstatement.

I would not trust anything else than landsouls spreadsheet because he uptaded it last day and its accurate to 99,5%.

I quite like Landsoul's spreadsheet. It models a lot of things very, very accurately. There are, however, some flaws with it... which are the kinds of things you pick up on if you actually follow the thread.

I just checked the recent changes and it's still not properly modeling the additional Overpowers from dodges being consumed by TfB, which means it's undervalueing Expertise. If you assume that you have a TfB proc active or will have it proc before the next GCD is up 1.5 out of every 6 seconds as an approximation, it'd lower the difference between Landsoul's calculated Expertise and Hit SEP's by 25%.

The opportunity cost modeling for Arms also isn't fully implemented yet, but that's another discussion.

[Lizana]

Rpzip, what i mean by that isnt that it has to hit for it to crit, but a dodge will always miss, with the single roll system, i am talking about a entirely separate attack, that attack can hit, be dodged, miss, or crit (as an example) If it the person dodges you can ever crit on that attack. Hence why stacking the table to remove such misses and dodges is helpful. It will not increase your crit chance, but it will increase the chances of your attack hitting, and your attack has to hit for anything to happen.

The problem comes from the term hit meaning any attack that lands on the target vs the regular hit term. Same thing as missing, you have "miss" and you also have i missed the target they dodged...

[Kazeyonoma]

I think it's just a case of mis-statement. Lizana is trying to say if you didn't hit, then you obviously didn't crit. He's not saying hits -> crits are 2 roll based, he's saying if you roll a miss, that's it, that attack is done, no amount of higher crit is gonna make that miss not a miss.

edit: damnit, too slow.

[RPZip]

Source: Lizana Rpzip, what i mean by that isnt that it has to hit for it to crit, but a dodge will always miss, with the single roll system, i am talking about a entirely separate attack, that attack can hit, be dodged, miss, or crit (as an example) If it the person dodges you can ever crit on that attack. Hence why stacking the table to remove such misses and dodges is helpful. It will not increase your crit chance, but it will increase the chances of your attack hitting, and your attack has to hit for anything to happen.

Yeah. No.

For white damage/autoattacks, WoW uses a one roll system and crit values are calculated along the entirety of swings; excluding other factors, like avoidance or higher-priority events (dodge, miss, parry and glancing) plus your crit chance being higher than 100% (as in crit capping), your crit chance is the number of crits you get out of every swing.

If you're attacking a mob with a 50% dodge chance (no parry, no chance to miss him) and you have a 30% crit chance, 30% of your -swings- will crit for autoattacks. You effectively roll a D100 and compare it to a table like this for the results;

01 - 50: Dodge
51 - 80: Crit
81 - 100: Hit

Notice that 60% of your attacks that land in this situation crit, but it's still 30% of your swings that crit. Crit chance is not calculated only on attacks that land for autoattacks.

Note that this does not apply to special attacks (yellow damage), where an attack can have multiple results (Roguex crits you for 300 with Sinister Strike (800 Blocked), for example), but it absolutely does for white/autoattack damage.

[Kazeyonoma]

again, Lizana was not saying it's on a mutually dependant 2 roll system.

replace his use of the word "miss" with "not land" and his post is sound.

[Lizana]

Unless the two roll system for specials has been proven i was under the belief that specials still followed the one roll system as well for melee attacks

(As a side note, you just agreed with me, but due to the language i used it was not very clear. I have always hated trying to explain the combat table to some one, and you did a good job taking what i said and making into words)

[Molohk]

AFAIK, Liz never implied that the chance to crit is calculated from the total chance to hit in fact Liz specificall said that reducing dodge/miss wouldn't increase your chances to crit which implies crit chance bares no relation to hit chance. I'm not sure what RPZip is refuting here.

[Kazeyonoma]

btw, this argument is over. Disruptor has decided to opt out of the discussion now.

[RPZip]

Source: Molohk AFAIK, Liz never implied that the chance to crit is calculated from the total chance to hit in fact Liz specificall said that reducing dodge/miss wouldn't increase your chances to crit which implies crit chance bares no relation to hit chance. I'm not sure what RPZip is refuting here.

again, Lizana was not saying it's on a mutually dependant 2 roll system. replace his use of the word "miss" with "not land" and his post is sound.

Let's play Pin the Land on the Hit.

Rpzip, what i mean by that isnt that it has to hit for it to crit, but a dodge will always not land, with the single roll system, i am talking about a entirely separate attack, that attack can hit, be dodged, miss, or crit (as an example) If it the person dodges you can ever crit on that attack. Hence why stacking the table to remove such misses and dodges is helpful. It will not increase your crit chance, but it will increase the chances of your attack landing, and your attack has to land for anything to happen.

Which is, you know, wrong. It's inaccurate in that it gives the impression that increasing your chance for attacks to land will do anything for the chance of any swing to crit; what it will instead do is make an attack that would be a 'miss' event (or a 'dodge' event) into a 'hit' event instead. That's not a 'attack lands' event, that's a 'hit' event. Unless you're running ludicrously high crit rates, at no point will adding more hit or expertise increase your number of crits. Same "white attacks only" caveat applies.

[RPZip]

Going back a page here...

Back in the days where Sudden Death proc'ed off of Crits, I could see the fact that crit became pretty much more important than Hit and Expertise due to the fact you could potentially push the miss ratio off of the table (Unsure of this one actually, it might border on removing hit and replacing with crit instead with an innate miss chance incorperated in their attack tables that can only be removed by using Hit/Expertise to remove)

...what? That doesn't make any sense, at all.

If you're sitting on 100%+ Crit rate (see: Loatheb) and have no +hit or Expertise, you're going to crit on 85.5% of your swings and whiff (dodge or miss) on the remainder. You can't push miss or dodge off the table with critical strike chance, they both have a higher priority (so does glancing blows for autoattacks, actually, so it'd be even lower... but just roll with it, the principle is sound).

To be honest with you, there is nothing worse than seeing one of my specials miss. As a Death Knight, seeing my Heart Strike miss while doing my rotation not only annoys me, but throws me off my rotation off completely and will result in a dps loss. No matter how you cut it, 0 damage is 0 dps. There's no arguing of this fact.

Death Knights and Warriors aren't the same.

Our specials go on cooldown when we hit them whether or not they connect. It doesn't throw off our rotation (exception: Rend, and that's pretty minor), it just means that attack does zero damage (or zero damage but opens up another, more damaging attack we can replace another attack with).

You may argue that there are many factors but you missing for those three seconds definitely didn't help either. Hit and Expertise is there to remove that RNG factor of happening. You will always hit, you will always land damage, and you will never have 0 dps. BY saying that running the risk of RNG having a field day with your rotation is better in the long run instead of insuring that you have no chance of a flat 0 dps is, to me, illogical. I rather lower my RNG chances when it comes to hitting things than to leave it to the oh so powerful Blizzard tool to tell me when I will do damage. No thanks.

You could use the same logic to justify never having crit unless it's at 100%, because you could get screwed by RNG. You should instead only get gear that increases your Haste instead, since that's not effected by the RNG.

The damage difference between going from a hit to a crit is larger than the difference between going from a miss/dodge to a hit; it also takes more rating to pull off the hit -> crit than miss/dodge -> hit, but there is no inherent rule that makes the RNG on one any worse than the other. DPS is calculated as an average effect, not in terms of Effective Health in reverse where you're looking at the worst-case scenario and what would happen then.