[Dubzil]

Sooo I'm Uld/Naxx25 geared off-spec Arms, and when I do DPS I notice i have almost no time to HS unless there is raid damage due to rage issues.

So If you don't Exp soft-cap, and you are dodged, and you are using rage for OP rather than gaining rage from the hit, how exactly do you get 5% of your dmg from HS...

Is it maybe that you are just geared to the point that you are not rage starved as much, that you don't need the rage from a white swing, and can HS 5% of your dmg and use extra rage from OP???

[Krenian]

Source: Disruptor Your way of showing how hit works is hilarious. WoW is based on RNG as you maybe realized. As somebody would say you have to cap Crit because if you hit some style @ XTs heart you might lose DPS. DPS is based on overall average DMG. As for now hit is below ArPen in most cases for ARMS warriors. If you believe that you will do more DMG in the heart phase with hitcap that has lower SEP than ArP you are wrong. You must be "unlucky" to reduce DPS by that. But as i said anything is based on RNG. One heart phase you got 60/100 crits though you have 45% crit. Another try you have 30/100 crits.

RNG is fine but lowering the RNG to stabilize your damage is in my opinion a far stronger number. Back in the days where Sudden Death proc'ed off of Crits, I could see the fact that crit became pretty much more important than Hit and Expertise due to the fact you could potentially push the miss ratio off of the table (Unsure of this one actually, it might border on removing hit and replacing with crit instead with an innate miss chance incorperated in their attack tables that can only be removed by using Hit/Expertise to remove)

To be honest with you, there is nothing worse than seeing one of my specials miss. As a Death Knight, seeing my Heart Strike miss while doing my rotation not only annoys me, but throws me off my rotation off completely and will result in a dps loss. No matter how you cut it, 0 damage is 0 dps. There's no arguing of this fact.

So say you're prioritizing and all of a sudden, Sudden Death procs. you hit it...dodge. Crap, GCD goes on, you try hitting Mortal Strike...Miss. Uh oh, RNG just screwed you over. Two attacks gone, 0 DPS in 3 seconds, Rage may be overflowing and you're just not getting the damage in. Look at that, XT needs that bit more DPS to get into Hard Mode and doesn't happen. You may argue that there are many factors but you missing for those three seconds definitely didn't help either.

Hit and Expertise is there to remove that RNG factor of happening. You will always hit, you will always land damage, and you will never have 0 dps. BY saying that running the risk of RNG having a field day with your rotation is better in the long run instead of insuring that you have no chance of a flat 0 dps is, to me, illogical. I rather lower my RNG chances when it comes to hitting things than to leave it to the oh so powerful Blizzard tool to tell me when I will do damage. No thanks.

Source: Disruptor Telling me to learn how expertise is somehow very inappropriate when this person doesnt even know the class that the guide is about. You might read the Overpower Tooltip. YOU may use it after the enemy dodged an attack. In fact if you are missing expertise you change your priorities as Arms. Usually MS and Execute have higher prio than OP. But as you are missing Expertise you might gain OP by dodged attacks. This wont hurt you as much as a hit that missed because you are able to use OP and in most cases you may use it before a new TfB proc appears.

Alright, I'll flat out agree here and state that Arms warriors are definitely not my forte now in Wrath of the Lich King. I abandoned my Warrior and leveled my Death Knight and now raid with him. However from what I remember reading about Arms Warriors is the fact that they moreso go with TfB and Rend to proc OP instead of relying on dodge OPs. I could be wrong, like I said, but I was under the impression that the combination of those two removed the need to have a mob dodge you. I even remember, and don't quote me on this because I can't back it up, reading a blue post about Blizzard blues telling folks that they shouldn't drop Expertise at all as Arms because of the mechanics removing that need. Again, I stress: This is purely hearsay because I cannot for the life of me remember where I read the blue post, but I could of sworn it was different.

[Disruptor]

Source: Tarigar Again it boils down to attacks being dodged. I would rather be spending my gcd on an ms, execute,slam, or tfb proc and not on op becuase of a dodged attack. Dodged ability = 1 gcd wasted Dodged swing = less rage then i would have

I think the idea of SEP and hit compared to other stats is not really clear to you. You are right that a dodged ability will delay your rotation but OP scales very good especially since you have huge crit chance with OP and Impale scales multiplicative with buffs of the same type. Another important fact is that more Crits will stack DW higher and you most likely get a crit within 1 sec GCD which is very good.

I told you that expertise is necessary but not as important as for fury for example.

The thing about hit is that overall you will gain more DPS by stacking more ArPen because those successfull will do significantly more damage. And though you might miss some hits you ll gain a DPS increase.

[Dubzil]

With the rotation how it is I really don't see how you can fit more OPs in, you have a 6 second gap for ToB, you have MS, Sudden Death, Slam, and Rend. Having a swing be dodged when you have Sudden Death, use your OP, get sudden death again because you prioritize OP above Sudden Death is a drop in DPS. You will always hit MS over anything, so if you get OP, MS comes off CD, hit MS, ToB Procs, you don't get an additional OP, you just got a dodged attack.

It seems too far fetched to really increase your DPS with such a locked GCD rotation, theres always something to hit, not a lot of room to add more OPs in when you could be getting those dodged attacks from white hits that don't cause a GCD.

[loadtoad]

I believe this disruptor person is trying to say "don't gem for hit" which I could agree with.

[Dubzil]

Source: Disruptor Another important fact is that more Crits will stack DW higher and you most likely get a crit within 1 sec GCD which is very good.

Don't forget this 1 sec GCD is potentially a 2.5sec GCD if you are getting any of your GCD abilities dodged

[Lizana]

Source: Disruptor Telling me to learn how expertise is somehow very inappropriate when this person doesnt even know the class that the guide is about. You might read the Overpower Tooltip. YOU may use it after the enemy dodged an attack. In fact if you are missing expertise you change your priorities as Arms. Usually MS and Execute have higher prio than OP. But as you are missing Expertise you might gain OP by dodged attacks. This wont hurt you as much as a hit that missed because you are able to use OP and in most cases you may use it before a new TfB proc appears.

If you are dodged, you have wasted a global cool down doing Zero damage but that allows you to OP doing 3073 extra damage you might not have been able to do. So lets give you the best possible chance and say one of your specials was dodged. The least damaging special is Slam, Slam on the arms warrior I pulled these numbers off of has an average damage of 3021. Now lets say that attack is dodged, so no damage is done. That then allows you to do a OP for 3073 damage. So you just gained a whole 52 damage, but there is a problem, you lost 2 GCD to do that. Arms is a GCD locked spec. The closer you are to 100% GCD usage the better you dps will be. So you took 2 GCD to do 3073 damage compared to an expertise caped warrior even using his lowest dps GCD would have done 6042 damage. So now you’re in a negative 2969 damage compared to that expertise caped warrior. The damage loss is much greater if you figure in any of the other GCD dps abilities of the arms warrior with the exception to Rend.

So you still want to be argumentative and say but what about if the stars match up, I win the lotto and have naked supermodels fall into my lap and can promise you I will only ever be dodged on regular melee swings therefore I am ahead on damage. But by how much. Average melee swing for the warrior I pulled these numbers off of was 2676, causing you to only gain 397 damage on average. So there you go you increase your damage if you are only dodged on melee and then follow it up by a OP… oh wait.. OP still uses a darn GCD… So lets do a melee swing hitting and a slam (still the lowest damaging GCD). So 2676 + 3021 = 5697. Shucky darn… 5.6k is still greater than 3k… so it’s a dps loss
So hmm… wasting 2 GCD for 1 attack = dps loss, wasting a GCD and a dodged melee attack = a dps loss, I honestly cant think of a single time doing Zero damage and then doing damage is better than doing damage consistently. And you may notice I didn’t consider TfB procs at all, because if we figure in the chance that you may use an OP the same time you have a TfB proc up, you gained no damage at all, also I didn’t add in the lost chances for execute procs.


As a side note i also am not factoring in the rage gen loss that could be used to increase your HS usage either...

[Tarigar]

Source: Disruptor I think the idea of SEP and hit compared to other stats is not really clear to you. You are right that a dodged ability will delay your rotation but OP scales very good especially since you have huge crit chance with OP and Impale scales multiplicative with buffs of the same type. Another important fact is that more Crits will stack DW higher and you most likely get a crit within 1 sec GCD which is very good. I told you that expertise is necessary but not as important as for fury for example. The thing about hit is that overall you will gain more DPS by stacking more ArPen because those successfull will do significantly more damage. And though you might miss some hits you ll gain a DPS increase.

When my ability is dodged it did 0 for my dps yes I have the potential to make up for it with an overpower. But the attack before could have also been a crit. So essentially I am still losing out on dps.

Since it is hypothetical based on it coulda woulda's I would rather go for a guaranteed hit.

Also dodged white swing = rage not gained. Other warriors I raid with complain about being rage starved. I really don't know what it is like unless I execute when the boss is below 20%.

I normally top the other arms warriors who neglect expertise.

If you need a wws report Wow Web Stats

[Disruptor]

So say you're prioritizing and all of a sudden, Sudden Death procs. you hit it...dodge. Crap, GCD goes on, you try hitting Mortal Strike...Miss. Uh oh, RNG just screwed you over. Two attacks gone, 0 DPS in 3 seconds, Rage may be overflowing and you're just not getting the damage in. Look at that, XT needs that bit more DPS to get into Hard Mode and doesn't happen. You may argue that there are many factors but you missing for those three seconds definitely didn't help either.

Hmm first of all i have no problems with XT Hard. We did attempt 25s and had him on 20% and i was suprisingly 3. in dmg as Arms and i am not hitcapped nor exp capped.

It is a playstyle you have to get used to. Because when you miss a style you are not loosing all rage as in BC. That changed with LK and is another important fact why exp is not as useful as imagined. And slam is a very efficient way, especially combined with HS to dump rage. On other hand you have to calculate that your next white hit might miss or be dodged and you wont gain rage ( if you should not get any raid dmg ). I'm fine with that and it works for me.

When my ability is dodged it did 0 for my dps yes I have the potential to make up for it with an overpower. But the attack before could have also been a crit. So essentially I am still losing out on dps.

Sorry but it hurts to read something like this. Would you learn WoW basics please and check the attack table. Melee styles are on a 1 roll system unlike magic attacks that are on a 2 roll system. That means that a style that would crit cant miss. Unlike for magic attacks. Thats why fury Wars in BC gemmed crit not hit.

[Krenian]

Source: Disruptor Hmm first of all i have no problems with XT Hard. We did attempt 25s and had him on 20% and i was suprisingly 3. in dmg as Arms and i am not hitcapped nor exp capped. It is a playstyle you have to get used to. Because when you miss a style you are not loosing all rage as in BC. That changed with LK and is another important fact why exp is not as useful as imagined. And slam is a very efficient way, especially combined with HS to dump rage. On other hand you have to calculate that your next white hit might miss or be dodged and you wont gain rage ( if you should not get any raid dmg ). I'm fine with that and it works for me.

Then in that retrospect you have to somewhat conclude that you have your own style and others have their own style and to each their own. If you are comfortable with your style, then by all means stay by it. But to go and say that someone else's style is completely wrong is slightly condescending especially if you rather we don't critique your own style.

We're not here to critique each other, but this is more of an informational tool. You could of avoided any backlashing by simply saying: Well guys, I don't fully agree with this guide and this is how I do it; and I do it well by doing good on the charts (insert chart)

It all comes down to how we word things and sometimes people word themselves the wrong way and it turns out to be negative. Hey, if you do great on the meters, then by all means that's awesome. But there were better ways to go around than the way you decided to do it. That's all Hopefully we can say bygones be bygones and leave it at that and do constructive work to make arms warriors feel better about their class.

[Disruptor]

Source: Krenian Then in that retrospect you have to somewhat conclude that you have your own style and others have their own style and to each their own. If you are comfortable with your style, then by all means stay by it. But to go and say that someone else's style is completely wrong is slightly condescending especially if you rather we don't critique your own style. We're not here to critique each other, but this is more of an informational tool. You could of avoided any backlashing by simply saying: Well guys, I don't fully agree with this guide and this is how I do it; and I do it well by doing good on the charts (insert chart) It all comes down to how we word things and sometimes people word themselves the wrong way and it turns out to be negative. Hey, if you do great on the meters, then by all means that's awesome. But there were better ways to go around than the way you decided to do it. That's all Hopefully we can say bygones be bygones and leave it at that and do constructive work to make arms warriors feel better about their class.

Well sorry if attacked someone but i see things with mathematics. All of my statements are true and based on maths on paper.

I was somehow pissed because of people critizising me who do not know how OP work or who think melee styles may be on a 2 roll system.

It just strange when people post guides which information are not true or updated but they do not change it. It is confusing for people who might try to learn something.

[Tarigar]

Source: Disruptor Sorry but it hurts to read something like this. Would you learn WoW basics please and check the attack table. Melee styles are on a 1 roll system unlike magic attacks that are on a 2 roll system. That means that a style that would crit cant miss. Unlike for magic attacks. Thats why fury Wars in BC gemmed crit not hit.

Well besides proc'ing overpower what did a dodged ability do for me?

Also wouldn't you agree as well that you could essentially get two abilities in... in the time that it would be to get that one overpower off?

[Lizana]

Source: Disruptor Well sorry if attacked someone but i see things with mathematics. All of my statements are true and based on maths on paper. I was somehow pissed because of people critizising me who do not know how OP work or who think melee styles may be on a 2 roll system. It just strange when people post guides which information are not true or updated but they do not change it. It is confusing for people who might try to learn something.

I posted my math showing why caping was better for dps, care to post yours?

[Tarigar]

Source: Disruptor Well sorry if attacked someone but i see things with mathematics. All of my statements are true and based on maths on paper. I was somehow pissed because of people critizising me who do not know how OP work or who think melee styles may be on a 2 roll system. It just strange when people post guides which information are not true or updated but they do not change it. It is confusing for people who might try to learn something.

I guess it would be a none issue if you posted stats or sources to what you say.

[Dubzil]

Source: Disruptor It just strange when people post guides which information are not true or updated but they do not change it. It is confusing for people who might try to learn something.

Can you post your math and some WWS of your DPS to support your method? I can't logically see how it could be a DPS increase, I'm not 100% up on all the hit tables and roll system wow uses, So if you have some info that would make missing a white or GCD ability for an OP put you on top, Please do share.

[Disruptor]

@ Lizana

I wont even reply to that because there are way more influences to be taking into account.

@ Tarigar

It was not my intention to make a guide and explain anything. I just pointed out mistakes that need to be reworked. As i said if i would post all that information to explain any little fact i could write a guide myself.

@ Dubzil

I'll get into that.

[Tarigar]

Source: Disruptor Well sorry if attacked someone but i see things with mathematics. All of my statements are true and based on maths on paper @ Lizana I wont even reply to that because there are way more influences to be taking into account. @ Tarigar It was not my intention to make a guide and explain anything. I just pointed out mistakes that need to be reworked. As i said if i would post all that information to explain any little fact i could write a guide myself

I never asked for a guide and if all of everything you say is math on paper shouldn't be too hard to post.

[Lizana]

Now from my earlier post I used all non crit values, because I don’t normally use WMO for parses I was a bit confused of where all the data was, but here is the updated values assuming every OP will be a crit.

5557 Crit OP average
2690 Slam average non crit
2137 Melee no n crit

Slam dodge + OP crit = 5557 damage
Slam hit + slam hit = 5380 damage and a chance to proc execute.

Melee dodge + OP Crit = 5557 damage
Melee hit and Slam = 4827 damage, 24 more rage and chance to proc execute.

So only if your not going to ever going to have a dodge when you have a TfB proc, and you can promise 100% of the time you will have It dodge on a time when you will have Slam x 2 and they will not crit or proc SD, or you have a dodge on a melee hit that would not have crit if it had landed and an crit OP and for the melee swing will not proc SD, and you are not able to burn off the extra rage gained with a HS. Any other time it would be a dps loss to have the attack dodged.
That’s a lot of Ifs to build a solid dps build on…

[Disruptor]

Wow Lizana i just wanted to post that but i had to reboot. A fight is not 3 seconds long, it is 5 minutes or longer. And you forget that you exchange for example those 16 hit with 16 arpen that boost your overall damage...

[Dubzil]

we're talking exp not hit, what amount of ArP do you gain by going below exp soft cap?