[Krenian]

Doesn't mean we can't thorize now that we see it. It's not my fault I'm slow!

[Chiron]

I'm still doing about the same DPS on the current PTR build as Frost as I would on the live servers. Perhaps the buffs for the other abilities make up for the Frost Strike nerf?

[Gorgrim Warcry]

The buff to blood strike is suppose to make up for reductions in other areas. The reason FS was nerfed more than likely is directly related to my post ealier in the thread, the devs intend for us to use both disease not just spam IT for RP then FS for our major damage filling it in with the random Obliterate. I wouldn't worry about a dps fluctuation at all and if it does it will be relatively minor. What I am wondering is what they will do to bring blood back into line as it has clearly run amuck with the damage I am seeing.

[Chiron]

This may be an issue with my gear as well, but it seems though now Obliterate is the more damage-dealing ability on the PTR rather than Frost Strike. I seem to pulling out more DPS using three Obliterates in the second end of the rotation rather than one Obliterate, two Icy Touches, and then another Obliterate. There's less Frost Strikes, but I'm doing about 500-700 more DPS this way. This is with Epidemic. Both 2H build and DW build seems to scale as such as well.

[Volkum]

IT PS OB BS BS dump
OB OB IT dump
HB anytime Rime procs

With a mix of 10-25 Naxx, 10 Uld, and still a few heroic pieces I'm kickin out 3.5 avg on trash, 4k on bosses....hit 6.2k on Hodir 10 the other day.

This is with a 17/54/0 frost spec and the IT Glyph.

A lot of people seem to think that the 3.2 changes are going to kill 2h Frost dps but honestly if you are hit capped your FS is gonna hit just about how it is now. Maybe a miss here and there but mostly it should hit everytime. That's the point of being hit capped.

Also if you really want to benefit the raid in general I think Frost is the way to go with Imp Icy Talons. Everybody loves haste. Especially healers.

[xKhellendrosx]

Source: Volkum IT PS OB BS BS dump OB OB IT dump HB anytime Rime procs With a mix of 10-25 Naxx, 10 Uld, and still a few heroic pieces I'm kickin out 3.5 avg on trash, 4k on bosses....hit 6.2k on Hodir 10 the other day. This is with a 17/54/0 frost spec and the IT Glyph. A lot of people seem to think that the 3.2 changes are going to kill 2h Frost dps but honestly if you are hit capped your FS is gonna hit just about how it is now. Maybe a miss here and there but mostly it should hit everytime. That's the point of being hit capped. Also if you really want to benefit the raid in general I think Frost is the way to go with Imp Icy Talons. Everybody loves haste. Especially healers.

Thats actually the point of beign at the expertise softcap as well as hit capped. The main thing about Frost strike right now is that it can not be Dodged/Blocked/Parried. So as long as you were at hit cap prior to 3.2 that thing could never miss. Now you'll need 26 expertise and to be behind the boss to guarantee this.

[Krenian]

The only thing that will change with two handed frost is the fact that your Frost Strikes will hit for a bit less and can miss. In that retrospect, the only thing that happens here is that Expertise will now take a bit more importance in Frost due to the fact that your strikes can miss and are no longer guaranteed.

Stacking Expertise now becomes as important as it is in Blood so you don't get dodged attacks. Parry shouldn't be an issue.

The reason why they're saying that Frost 2H will be dead is the fact that it's now much more beneficial to use Dual Wielding in that build on the sole reason that all your attacks will now strike with both weapons which could quite potentially outdamage your two handed weapon at that point. Testing still needs to be done but I'm going to venture a guess that to get the best DPS out of the build, you'll wanna Dual Wield in that tree.

My first dual wield tree attempt will be looking into a full frost build first:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...&version=10048

This grabs some good damage abilities out of Blood, focuses mainly on Frost tree's synergies and foregoes the Unholy section of it all. The fact of the matter is your strikes will play a much bigger part of your damage with how ToT works. This empowers your yellow strikes even more.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...&version=10048

This focuses more on having a Permanent ghoul by your side. You sacrifice some of your Frost damage as well as AoE damage however you make it up by getting strong single target damage through Impurity, Necrosis, Blood-Caked Blade as well as the Ghoul. Although the new changes to Unholy Blight sound nice, the problem comes that it doesn't work with ToT (Although casting two Deal Coils could be funny as hell, it's Blood's domain through Heart Strikes). For that matter, Frost Strike is your official dump no matter how you cut this build. I could see this build potentially pulling out more single target DPS than the first one, but lack in the AoE section.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...&version=10048

Sacrifices the Perma ghoul and Impurity and focuses on getting more AoE damage in the form of Howling Blast. Also, with the way that Frost works, it's always nice to be able to get a free attack, which doesn't cost any runes. This might turn out to be the build to focus on if you want strong single target damage through BCB, Necrosis, and focus on hitting harder, more often.

I'm almost thinking of stating the first build would be to start off, then start dropping points out of Blood as it doesn't scale as well and start focusing on giving your damage some oomph through Unholy. Either two builds linked would work fine, depending on the DPS situation.

All of this is theorycrafting right now, so don't take it as absolute truth. I'll be doing testings during 3.2 as I usually do and give you the jist of it.

[Molohk]

Source: Volkum Also if you really want to benefit the raid in general I think Frost is the way to go with Imp Icy Talons. Everybody loves haste. Especially healers.

Imp Icy Talons only affects melee haste.

[Chiron]

I don't have actual parses or anything to show to prove my points, but I have been doing some rigorous testing on the PTR with dual wielding. My gear leaves me at spell hit cap and about 21 Expertise. I use slow/slow weapons (Razorscale Talon MH and Grimhorn Crusher OH) and my gear is a mix of Naxx 25/Uld 10 gear. Sigil of Awareness is used, since I have yet to aquire SotVH yet. You may see more improvement with other builds if you do have SotVH.

Rune enchants: Fallen Crusader/Razorice
Fallen Crusader x2 works pretty well too, but FC/Cinderglacier does not work so well, since Cinderglacier hardly procs enough to be useful.

Blood Presence is more effective than Unholy Presence, even if using massive RP gain to spam Frost Strike (IT6 comes into mind)

I have done my testing without raid buffs on Patchwerk in Naxx 10. There were two tanks, two healers, and myself. I removed all buffs and only utilized Horn of Winter.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...&version=10048

Rotation:
IT PS BS BS Ob FS dump
IT PS Ob Ob FS dump
Rime Procs can be used since diseases are running.
That rotation got me at about 3250 DPS.

IT PS BS BS Ob FS dump
Ob IT IT Ob FS dump
Rime procs can be used.
This rotation got me about 2800 DPS.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...&version=10048

Rotation:
IT PS BS BS Ob FS dump
Ob Ob Ob FS dump
Rime procs can NOT be used due to being too global intensive and diseases falling off.
This nailed me a whopping 3784 DPS.
You can take one point out of Dark Conviction to put into Howling Blast if you'd like for that AoE utility, but you still can't use it for Rime procs on Single target DPS.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...&version=10048

Rotation:
IT PS BS BS Ob FS dump
Ob Ob Ob FS dump
Rime procs can NOT be used due to being too global intensive and diseases falling off.
3320 DPS.

IT PS BS BS Ob FS dump
Ob IT IT Ob FS dump
Rime procs can be used.
3100 DPS.

The extra damage from Necrosis is almost useless when it comes to damage done and a DPS boost. While attcking patchwerk for 5 minutes striaght, Necrosis only did a total damage of 1670 with a +/- of about 50. That's not even that much of a noticable increase. Granted, having more hit will make it cause more damage, but it's still almost negliable.

The three points in Subversion can be switched to Blood Caked Blade, which will provide a bit more extra damage in the white hit department, but once again, that relies on how much hit you have.

These are all the tests I did with these builds. Your DPS may be different depending on how you're geared, obviously. Sigil of the Bengeful Heart will more than likely benefit the rotations using more Frost Strike than Obliterate. You may have more Hit/Exp rating to utilize more white damage bonuses. Regardless, I hope this helps any.

[Krenian]

Your first build I'm alright with but the last two builds you have are builds I don't necessarily agree with with your point placement.

But good tests anyway, it's interesting to see em.

[xKhellendrosx]

Source: Chiron http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...&version=10048 Rotation: IT PS BS BS Ob FS dump IT PS Ob Ob FS dump Rime Procs can be used since diseases are running. That rotation got me at about 3250 DPS. IT PS BS BS Ob FS dump Ob IT IT Ob FS dump Rime procs can be used. This rotation got me about 2800 DPS. http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...&version=10048 Rotation: IT PS BS BS Ob FS dump Ob Ob Ob FS dump Rime procs can NOT be used due to being too global intensive and diseases falling off. This nailed me a whopping 3784 DPS. You can take one point out of Dark Conviction to put into Howling Blast if you'd like for that AoE utility, but you still can't use it for Rime procs on Single target DPS. http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...&version=10048 Rotation: IT PS BS BS Ob FS dump Ob Ob Ob FS dump Rime procs can NOT be used due to being too global intensive and diseases falling off. 3320 DPS. IT PS BS BS Ob FS dump Ob IT IT Ob FS dump Rime procs can be used. 3100 DPS.

Okay I'm not sure if you really understand the concept of global intensive. In each of those builds you've listed with OB x 3 in the 2nd part of the rotation you say that Rime procs can not be used due to it being too global intensive. You understand there are less globals used in that part than say Ob, IT, IT, OB right.

[Chiron]

What I meant was you won't have time to let loose a rime proc because diseases will be falling off. The time spent using a rime proc rather than continuimg the rotation is less DPS in the end.

[Krenian]

Why not glyph it then if that's the worry?

And it's really free damage. Even without the disease up, you'll be doing damage for no rune usage. To be honest, it's nothing to worry about in my opinion.