[Mephs]

Source: Kazeyonoma testing has shown it exists somewhere between 8-9% safer to go 9% than leave a small margin and allow people to say ZOMG LOOK I MISSED AT CAP.

I've been 8.07% all this week, 0 misses on any boss in 10-25 man raids.

[Corbusier]

I think we're pretty safe calling it 1% less across the board.

[Jathine]

Source: Anik Haste and Armor Pen:[INDENT]Possibly the two most misunderstood stats available to melee dps. Both stack multiplicatively, meaning the more you have, the better they are. At level 80 15.39 ArP Rating = Ignore 1% Armor. Since ArP was "normalized" into a rating system in patch 3.0 many have incorrectly devalued it or dismissed it all together. While it is now less effective on low armor targets it remains a viable DPS increase, especially on bosses, and provides additional damage and rage.

Do some math, come back and rethink what you said. All of my math and graph on the topic will be in Corb's Fury guide (and exclusively in his guide), and it will basically prove this section wrong. ArP is basically the worst dps stat for TG warriors, with Haste pulling slightly ahead.

Here is a huge hint for you: 1% armor reduction in a boss's armor is not equal to a 1% damage increase. It's not even close to that.

[ebs2002]

Okay, am I missing something? Where is Corb's fury guide? It used to be right there!! *points frantically*

But I'd like to see your math/graph on the topic, because all of my math shows ArP coming out ahead of both hit (after the cap) and haste.

SEP Calculations of a Raid-Buffed warrior in raid gear:

Weapons: 2x Runeblade of Demonstrable Power
35.61% Crit
2.53% ArP
328 hit rating
6153 AP
Expertise capped

STR	1.0000	AGI	0.7135	Hit	0.1108	ArP	0.6212
2 AP	0.9091	Crit	0.8651	Haste	0.4688	ExP	0.0000

That means that, in order:
1 Str > 2 AP > 1 Crit > 1 Agi > 1 ArP > 1 Haste > 1 Hit (expertise is useless in this situation)

Source: FuryDPS Calculation Spreadsheet - Page 2 - Elitist Jerks

[Jathine]

Source: ebs2002 Okay, am I missing something? Where is Corb's fury guide? It used to be right there!! *points frantically* But I'd like to see your math/graph on the topic, because all of my math shows ArP coming out ahead of both hit (after the cap) and haste.

Then you are doing something very wrong. Are you remembering both major and minor debuffs? Did you read the EJ thread about the amount of armor raid bosses have? You also might not be doing a % increase calculation properly, if even at all. You could also be plugging in the wrong numbers into the armor mitigation equation.

There is a lot that can go wrong in the calculations. Mess up early and it will be fubar'd. You have to run handwritten calculations, compare them with a spreadsheet ran calc and do it several times like that to make sure you have it all right.

Even after all that, you and I could have very similar numbers. ArP and Haste are both rather lackluster stats to begin with. Hit after the cap hard to quantify because it prevents those nasty miss streaks that screw your rotation harder than you would think.

There is also a final step in the evaluation of ArP that doesn't really jump out at you at first glance.

Not going to give away everything, so I am leaving it at that. You will have to wait for Corb to put his guide out to read the rest of it. Depending on how much of my stuff he tosses into the guide there is anywhere from 3-7 pages worth of numbers, graphs, and explanation on the stat.

Edit: As for your SEP values you are getting from a spreadsheet those are using very ideal situations, perfect rotations, and optimal HS usage. Those are rarely, if ever, the case. Also, the current generation of spreadsheets might not be up to date on Boss armor values. That was really only confirmed on 12/5, which was only four days ago. I redid all my math today after Corb pointed the post out to me. It is possible that they are using a wrong armor value for bosses.

[Kazeyonoma]

i unstuck Corbs guide because it wasn't updated for 3.0.2, should I re-stick it for some reason?

[Corbusier]

Source: Kazeyonoma i unstuck Corbs guide because it wasn't updated for 3.0.2, should I re-stick it for some reason?

Nah, my new one's almost finished.

Both stack multiplicatively, meaning the more you have, the better they are.

This is also untrue, must have missed it when I skimmed. For all intents and purposes, haste is worth exactly the same amount no matter how much you stack. The ONLY way haste is better the more you stack: you have increasing returns on heroic strikes. White attacks benefit the same from an extra 1% if you have 0% or 100%.

[ebs2002]

Jathine, I changed the spreadsheet to use the new armor values (I'm actively involved in testing the sheet and understand how it works).

As far as I've been able to discern, that spreadsheet is accurate in its armor pen values and is including all armor debuffs (1260 from Faerie Fire/Sting/CoR, 3925 from Sunder Armor/Acid Spit/Expose Armor).

All attacks in the rotation are affected by the sunder armor buff, and the DPS breakdown being used is
13.61% white
16.22% bt
12.99% ww
6.63% slam
19.79% dw (not affected by armor)
29.88% hs
0.87% other (procs, not affected by armor)

It all points to ArP being better than haste and certainly the hit.

This is also untrue, must have missed it when I skimmed. For all intents and purposes, haste is worth exactly the same amount no matter how much you stack. The ONLY way haste is better the more you stack: you have increasing returns on heroic strikes. White attacks benefit the same from an extra 1% if you have 0% or 100%.

Expertise, Haste, Hit and ArP are all additive to each other, and have been for some time (ArP being the exception, and haste having two different rates, pre-cap and post-cap).

However, increasing any of those three has a multiplicative effect on other stats (the more hit/haste/arp you have, the better AP and Crit gets, as an example). So stacking haste can be said to have a multiplicative affect on your other stats.

[Corbusier]

Source: ebs2002 However, increasing any of those three has a multiplicative effect on other stats (the more hit/haste/arp you have, the better AP and Crit gets, as an example). So stacking haste can be said to have a multiplicative affect on your other stats.

Yes I know, but this is not what he said.

[Frak]

Just a quick question if you please.I noticed the original version of this guide placed hit rating at 174 to avoid missing special attacks, and that the 2nd version states that 361( some debate about that atm) is required.I'm sure i've just overlooked something, but if someone could point me to what it is i would appreciate it.Thanks for your time

[ebs2002]

174 hit rating is required at level 70. As you increase in level, you need more hit rating to increase your hit chance by 1%. 361hit @80 = 174hit @70

[Lifefire]

Source: Mephs I've been 8.07% all this week, 0 misses on any boss in 10-25 man raids.

And you are 100% sure that you weren't affected by Heroic Presence?
Nvm, horde...

[Sashara]

Thank you so much for this guide! I'm a long time lurker (though only registered recently) and I've been a tank since conception with my Draenei Warrior but I've always wondered what Fury tasted like. Thanks for the concise info I needed.

[Heavychevy]

Well im seeing all the posts about low end Ap and Crit. Ive got 4k AP unbuffed and about 30 Crit unbuffed with 255 +Hit Rating. But the max DPS ive had was about 3k DPS in 25 man Naxx runs. Im doing the rotation everyone is telling me to do, but why is my DPS so damn low?? I also have a 0/5 Expertise rating thanks to the Dwarf passive with maces. Any help would be apperciated

[Kazeyonoma]

there's your next thing to improve. you need more expertise, you are getting (assuming you have 2/2 weapon mastery) 4.5% of your attacks being dodged on your mainhand, and 3.25% of your offhand.

[ahtil]

Very nice guide. Thank you.

[jeff5]

Source: Mephs I've been 8.07% all this week, 0 misses on any boss in 10-25 man raids.

Having similiar experiences sitting at 8.26%-8.50%. (271-300 hit rating or so depending on what gear I choose)

[Thunderkick]

Hey all,
I´ve been tank for almost 2 years but have now switched to Fury- so sry if this is a noob-question, but how much armor do u people stack??
(I see fury-warriors wearing leather and mail all the time - and as an old tank it kinda hurts my warrior-feeling lol.)

Should i just go for the stats or is there some recommended armor-value as well?

Thx in advance

/Thunderkick

[Skovski]

Unless the AP gained from ATT added to the AP from the item is higher than th AP on an item with lesser armor, the AC is essentially irrelevant, unless of course you are expected to fill an OT role if an MT or OT goes down.

Taking a cleave or any other physical damage from a boss mob will probably kill you even if you are wearing plate and armor has no affect in mitigating magic damage which most if not all splash damage is.

It feels funny, especially wearing mail with all the wasted Int, but if the stats are better wear the lower AC.

[Titangrip]

Hi, I'm really unsure of what stats I should pursue/get which is "ideal" for a TG warrior

Currently I have (all in Zerker Stance, no buffs)

3.7k AP
43.08% crit
23/23 expertise
356 hit.

Any advise anyone?