[Corbusier]

I guess I don't know why you're even bringing this up, I made the section as clear as possible. If people using this guide don't know that the character sheet doesn't reflect precision, then I think they may be in over their heads.

[Korlong]

Hey everyone, it's me, the guy with offhand executioner on a Warglaive. As per normal, I have an issue with current enchanting gospel.

Does anyone have any actual experimental data on the uptime of offhand Berserking with raid buffs? Particularly windfury?

The experimentally determined uptime for offhand executioner/mongoose was ~40%. If this holds for Berserking as well, then Berserking is the clear-cut choice for an offhand enchant. As the only difference in the number of hits landed by the main hand versus the offhand should be the missed hits canceled by heroic strike, one would expect the uptime for offhand Berserking to be very close to that of the main hand, in which case unless the value of Berserking in the main hand is very close to that of Massacre, Berserking should be the optimal choice for the offhand as well.

What concerns me is that current enchanting gospel seems to come from flawed math in post 138 of this thread on Elitist Jerks.

First of all, the author is basing his math on a single three-minute Patchwerk fight, which isn't even close to a representative sample.

Then he completely disregards the fact that Berserking stacks. Based on an expected uptime of 40%, you should see dual Berserking buffs active as much as 16% of the time.

There are also a couple of interesting points about Berserking to note:
- Its value increases as you wear more leather (lol)
- Attack power for Armored to the Teeth is believed to be re-calculated every 30s (perhaps this functions as a 30s hidden buff?). If this is the case, how much of this attack power are you really losing to a Berserking proc?

[Korlong]

My initial analysis of one of our KTs with a rogue offhanding Berserking pegs offhand uptime at 42% as expected (again, this is still far from being representative, it just seems to suggest that I'm not totally crazy).

The World of Warcraft Armory

Wow Web Stats
.

[Jathine]

Source: Korlong My initial analysis of one of our KTs with a rogue offhanding Berserking pegs offhand uptime at 42% as expected (again, this is still far from being representative, it just seems to suggest that I'm not totally crazy). The World of Warcraft Armory Wow Web Stats .

He is also a Mut rogue. His main instant attack uses both weapons. It will skew the results in favor of using it in his OH.

[Korlong]

Source: Jathine He is also a Mut rogue. His main instant attack uses both weapons. It will skew the results in favor of using it in his OH.

Whirlwind procs offhand weapon enchants. I tested this personally a while ago using a blasted lands mob, a grey weapon in the main hand, facing away from the mob.

Based on that particular WWS, he did 34 mutilates to my 26 whirlwinds. I'm a little tipsy right now, but I think I can still do math. With the new WW glyph, that becomes 32(.5) Whirlwinds for that fight - essentially the same.

[Corbusier]

The experimentally determined uptime for offhand executioner/mongoose was ~40%.

Where? I've never seen offhand enchants with anywhere near that uptime.

That being said, I am making certain assumptions, which I clearly noted, when it came to evaluating Berserking vs. Massacre. I also did so without using the EJ thread you mentioned. I have not yet procured weapons worthy of Berserking, and therefore have not personally tested it.

You're welcome to do so and post your results using Procwatch or a similar addon. Even using my own numbers, the difference is fairly slim, so Berserking may actually come out ahead.


One question: can glancings proc enchants? If so, the difference becomes even smaller. If no, then this would drive down OH enchant uptime.

[Korlong]

I'll start taking a look at it when I'm not traveling. As for glancing attacks, I have no idea. It should be fairly easy to determine, as you can just compare the results from a training dummy to results from a raid boss.

[Chosenx]

From my experience berserking does indeed proc enough to make it the best enchant, even with the ATT drop. I don't have hard evidence for this, but I might look into this procwatch thing and then post the results if i get around to it.

[Locob]

Excellent guide! Been looking forward to it for a while.

Anyway I think it may be worth mentioning that in some cases Relentless Earthsiege Diamond - Item - World of Warcraft may be better than Chaotic Skyflare Diamond - Item - World of Warcraft. It's a very small difference and depends on socket bonuses but if I'm not mistaken it's true.

Using your SEP values and assuming 1 Purple 1 Orange vs. 2 Purple to make them work:

Relentless Earthsiege Diamond - Item - World of Warcraft
21 Agi = 15.75 SEP
8 Str / 8 Crit = 15.2 SEP
8 Str / 12 Stam = 8 SEP
Total: 38.95 SEP

Chaotic Skyflare Diamond - Item - World of Warcraft
21 Crit Rating = 18.9 SEP
8 Str / 12 Stam = 8 SEP
8 Str / 12 Stam = 8 SEP
Total: 34.9 SEP

So Relentless Earthsiege Diamond - Item - World of Warcraft comes out better by 4.05 SEP before Kings.

Now if socketing that last blue yields a socket bonus greater than 4.05 SEP Skyflare pulls ahead.

Very small difference I know but I thought it was worth mentioning.

~Locob

[Corbusier]

Yeah it's been brought up, I just haven't updated it yet.

[Jathine]

Source: Locob Excellent guide! Been looking forward to it for a while. Anyway I think it may be worth mentioning that in some cases Relentless Earthsiege Diamond - Item - World of Warcraft may be better than Chaotic Skyflare Diamond - Item - World of Warcraft. It's a very small difference and depends on socket bonuses but if I'm not mistaken it's true. Using your SEP values and assuming 1 Purple 1 Orange vs. 2 Purple to make them work: Relentless Earthsiege Diamond - Item - World of Warcraft 21 Agi = 15.75 SEP 8 Str / 8 Crit = 15.2 SEP 8 Str / 12 Stam = 8 SEP Total: 38.95 SEP Chaotic Skyflare Diamond - Item - World of Warcraft 21 Crit Rating = 18.9 SEP 8 Str / 12 Stam = 8 SEP 8 Str / 12 Stam = 8 SEP Total: 34.9 SEP So Relentless Earthsiege Diamond - Item - World of Warcraft comes out better by 4.05 SEP before Kings. Now if socketing that last blue yields a socket bonus greater than 4.05 SEP Skyflare pulls ahead. Very small difference I know but I thought it was worth mentioning. ~Locob

I might be wrong, but I believe that there isn't a rare quality Inscribed Topaz or a rare quality Sovereign Opal in the game yet. (Just checked wowhead and those two cuts aren't in the game yet) I haven't heard of them being added in 3.0.8 either. However, I haven't been on the PTR to check if that is true.

Your math, while accurate, isn't really the case for live servers yet.

[Korlong]

I think the correct observation here is that for the moment the difference is essentially non-existent, as 4 str seems pretty standard for socket bonuses; however in the future once epic gems are available, the agility meta will always be the superior choice.

[Jathine]

Source: Korlong I think the correct observation here is that for the moment the difference is essentially non-existent, as 4 str seems pretty standard for socket bonuses; however in the future once epic gems are available, the agility meta will always be the superior choice.

Arguing about something not yet in the game, and hell even before we know when it will be put into the game, is rather pointless. If they keep with the trend from BC we won't be seeing epic gems until Icecrown.

I do agree that later down the road the agi+crit bonus meta will be better. However, we have no idea when that will be due to the fact that the gems we'd need aren't in the game and we don't have a definite time table for their implementation.

[Corbusier]

It's worth noting now because for JCers, whose prismatic gems count as all colors, the agi one is currently the best.

[ebs2002]

I might be wrong, but I believe that there isn't a rare quality Inscribed Topaz or a rare quality Sovereign Opal in the game yet. (Just checked wowhead and those two cuts aren't in the game yet) I haven't heard of them being added in 3.0.8 either. However, I haven't been on the PTR to check if that is true. Your math, while accurate, isn't really the case for live servers yet.

In that case, though, you replace with the 16ap equivalent, which is 0.45 per ap, or 7.2 for 16ap vs 8 for 8str.

Relentless Earthsiege Diamond - Item - World of Warcraft
21 Agi = 15.75 SEP
16 ap / 8 Crit = 14.4 SEP
16 ap / 12 Stam = 7.2 SEP
Total: 37.35 SEP

Chaotic Skyflare Diamond - Item - World of Warcraft
21 Crit Rating = 18.9 SEP
16 ap / 12 Stam = 7.2 SEP
18 ap / 12 Stam = 7.2 SEP
Total: 33.3 SEP

Still a 4.05 difference, which means:
- If you have two items with a blue socket bonus, AND
- Both socket bonus is 5str, or 9ap, or 6agi, or 5crit
THEN
The crit meta is better
ELSE
The agi meta is better.

Personally, I have T7 legs and Titansteel Helm, so I'll be using the crit rating meta.

[Drothmir]

First off my hit question.

I know the hit yellow cap is only in the mid 300's at 80 with precision, but with the upcoming changes to TG and the changes to the slam proc, does hit now become a higher priority for sustained dps from fury?

I ask this because although i know of and have raided with many TG warriors that follow the standard of hitting yellow cap and then building crit to mid 30's and stacking AP/STR. I personally only try to sustain 30% crit unbuffed and then i stack all gems for AP/STR and go for more hit gear while keeping that crit. I am aware that the crit is lower than most, but with 3700+ AP unbuffed and 529 hit, which will be going up(around 600-650) once i get T7.5 legs and can swap gear around, i am putting out more dps in most raid encounters than the other warriors i have seen. I am also about 2% shy of expertise cap(will hit it when i can swap gear around) for these fights.

It just seems to me that with only a 5%miss rate on mobs right now(according to recount reports) that keeping 30%crit and expertise cap and then stacking up hit gear without sacrificing AP is the way to go. Now maybe this just works for my play style as all people are different, but i would like Corb's feedback on it. AQnd please try not to flame me for choosing a different stat stacking technique that i enjoy.


Ok now the serk chant question. With he reduction of the armor debuff on serker going to only 5%, would it not be better to just dual serker chant after the patch hits? according to the numbers i have read on this forum you would only have like a 10-20% downtime without any buff. Or would that little bit of downtime still be enough that straight passive AP on one weapon is more dps?


Sorry if i ramble, but i suck at posting and although i have been a raiding fury since pre-naxx(vanilla naxx) i tend to not post on forums due to the rather uneducated/rude responses to honest questions.


Thank you for anything you can come up with regarding my questions.

[Ewanar]

Source: Drothmir First off my hit question. I know the hit yellow cap is only in the mid 300's at 80 with precision, but with the upcoming changes to TG and the changes to the slam proc, does hit now become a higher priority for sustained dps from fury? I ask this because although i know of and have raided with many TG warriors that follow the standard of hitting yellow cap and then building crit to mid 30's and stacking AP/STR. I personally only try to sustain 30% crit unbuffed and then i stack all gems for AP/STR and go for more hit gear while keeping that crit. I am aware that the crit is lower than most, but with 3700+ AP unbuffed and 529 hit, which will be going up(around 600-650) once i get T7.5 legs and can swap gear around, i am putting out more dps in most raid encounters than the other warriors i have seen. I am also about 2% shy of expertise cap(will hit it when i can swap gear around) for these fights. It just seems to me that with only a 5%miss rate on mobs right now(according to recount reports) that keeping 30%crit and expertise cap and then stacking up hit gear without sacrificing AP is the way to go. Now maybe this just works for my play style as all people are different, but i would like Corb's feedback on it. AQnd please try not to flame me for choosing a different stat stacking technique that i enjoy. Ok now the serk chant question. With he reduction of the armor debuff on serker going to only 5%, would it not be better to just dual serker chant after the patch hits? according to the numbers i have read on this forum you would only have like a 10-20% downtime without any buff. Or would that little bit of downtime still be enough that straight passive AP on one weapon is more dps? Sorry if i ramble, but i suck at posting and although i have been a raiding fury since pre-naxx(vanilla naxx) i tend to not post on forums due to the rather uneducated/rude responses to honest questions. Thank you for anything you can come up with regarding my questions.

There was talk about this in my guild's Vent tonight. **Just replying to the Hit Question**I've tried looking it up, but no real information seems definitive enough to say.

I look on EJ, and they say 160 Yellow cap and leave it at that. Guildy says you need 900ish hit-rating (not % lol) to be capped, which sounds ludicris, and he also didn't seem to acknowledge the fact that they removed the hit penalty of Titan's Grip.

Sure I'm a Prot Warrior, but I like to be able to back my general Warrior Info up. The TG change to my knowledge removed the 5% debuff (if you can call it that) to hitting a mob, so In theory if you needed 8% to be white hit-capped, when patch 3.0.8 hit, you would only need 3% hit. Which translates to some random number but still.

Basically if indeed the TG change was what I believe it to be, what is the proper hit ( with Precision [because who doesn't take precision as furry?])
Was I right in thinking 900+ hit is wrong?

[Shakadi]

Source: Ewanar There was talk about this in my guild's Vent tonight. **Just replying to the Hit Question**I've tried looking it up, but no real information seems definitive enough to say. I look on EJ, and they say 160 Yellow cap and leave it at that. Guildy says you need 900ish hit-rating (not % lol) to be capped, which sounds ludicris, and he also didn't seem to acknowledge the fact that they removed the hit penalty of Titan's Grip. Sure I'm a Prot Warrior, but I like to be able to back my general Warrior Info up. The TG change to my knowledge removed the 5% debuff (if you can call it that) to hitting a mob, so In theory if you needed 8% to be white hit-capped, when patch 3.0.8 hit, you would only need 3% hit. Which translates to some random number but still. Basically if indeed the TG change was what I believe it to be, what is the proper hit ( with Precision [because who doesn't take precision as furry?]) Was I right in thinking 900+ hit is wrong?

First of all, TG only affected your yellow hit chance before. Your white hits always had the normal DW miss rate of 27%. Before 3.0.8, this meant that only your yellow hits had the additional 5% miss rate. The patch did not affect your white hit rate at all.

So while you only need 5% hit with 3/3 precision to cap your yellow hits now (which is considered the "soft cap"), your guild mate is correct in saying that you need 900+ hit with 3/3 precision to reach the "hard cap" where you never miss with white hits.

------

With the patch came the Bloodsurge change and Whirlwind glyph change as well. As a result, I'm seeing a lot more burst as fury with slam procs sometimes coming up much more often and other times coming in much more sparse.

I almost feel like I'm losing dps when I see a Slam! proc right when WW and/or BT come off CD because those abilities now proc Slam! as well, which means I may be wasting a lot more procs.

Is it still the best idea to stick to the classic rotation of WW>BT>Slam (if proc'd), while HSing whenever you have 55 or more rage? Or would it be better to try and take every Slam! proc that comes and delay the use of WW and/or BT?

[Ewanar]

Thank you for the clarification

[pompuspilot]

Source: Shakadi Is it still the best idea to stick to the classic rotation of WW>BT>Slam (if proc'd), while HSing whenever you have 55 or more rage? Or would it be better to try and take every Slam! proc that comes and delay the use of WW and/or BT?

last nite during our naxx 25 i did take every slam proc instead of doing the normal rotation. my thinking was that if i didnt take the slam and instead ww or bt then those also may have proced slam which in essence would have short me a slam proc since i didnt take the first one.

as far as dps was concerned mine shot up quite a bit. on most fights i was either first or second on dps meters and in the past this was not always the case.WoW Meter Online - The Best World of Warcraft Combat Log Analyse System!Fully support Wrath of the Lich King!
on alot of the fights i was threat capped so i couldnt push even harder.