[Rishkkin]

hum, VERY interesting, I'll try hat out tonight, we have another kara scheduled, I might be close to that "unlimited" rage scenario.

once more thanks ebs

[ebs2002]

Actually, I'm pretty sure the GCD is fired when you start casting Slam, not when you finish casting it. So you can slam every 1.5secs.

Also, MS does more damage than Slam does. The thing is, it's only something like 25-30% more damage, and costs twice the rage.

Now that I think on it though, if we can map how much rage you get from a white swing, we can gauge how much "extra" rage a slam costs you (in the sense that slowing your white swing will cost you rage), and factor that in as well.

It may turn out to be that Slam is NOT more rage-efficient than MS, but instead be less efficient.

I gotta dig up my rage generation formulas...

[Krenian]

That would make sense but I think it's probably very deep in the fight. I think at a certain point, MS could probably and potentially outdamage Slam. But I don't think it's far enough to worry about it. Meh, I'm no math whiz, I'll leave it to you guys to figure it out..I just find MS just to be horrible rage and such a huge cost for the dps it does. eh.

[Rishkkin]

Source: Tonypablos That's why you need to be careful and watch the rage bar. If you see you're getting low, stop the rotation a bit and hit bloodrage or something or another.

It will take time to get used but I'll try to use slam until I'm down to 41 rage (my new magic number) when I reach that point Exec if it's up, (while using OP every time it's up).

We'll see how it turns out.

[ebs2002]

Okay, did some more math. Found out how much "extra rage" a slam costs you.

With a BoH at
2000AP, a slam costs you 3.6rage, making your magic number 54.1 to execute
2500AP, a slam costs you 3.8rage, making your magic number 50.8 to execute
3000AP, a slam costs you 4.1rage, making your magic number 48.3 to execute
3500AP, a slam costs you 4.3rage, making your magic number 46.5 to execute
5000AP, a slam costs you 5.1rage, making your magic number 43.2 to execute

Interesting side note, as your AP goes up, the gap between MS and Slam closes. However, MS doesn't overtake slam until 13,550AP (with a BoH equipped, that is).

What does this mean? I can pretty confidently say that, even with 3/3 Imp MS, there's no reason to use it unless you need the healing debuff.

Now, I challenge the mathematically-minded theorycrafters to find a flaw in my formula!

Also, guys, if you aren't using a Blade of the Harbingers, can you plug in your weapon stats to my sheet and verify that:
- At reasonable AP (5k is my theoretical cap), the Slam dmg/rage field is always higher than the MS dmg/rage field


Next on my list: to factor in your haste or actual swing time. I get the feeling that MS may become worth using again at sufficient haste, but it's hard to say. Right now, I'm not planning on using MS at all tonight

[blackNess]

yesterday i went mh and spammed slam as usually..

with some haste buffs & some haste on equip it seemed to me that i had TOO MUCH rage in 99% of the situations... you could say i used SD procs to dump rage with execute because i simply couldn't use all that rage, especially during heroism ... well timed, i could fire of a 90+ rage execute and resume slamming right after the gcd was over

so maybe you could think about a formula that calculates - with a given amount of ap, average weapon damage and swing time - when you have an unlimited rage scenario regarding slam

[ebs2002]

Sorry to keep changing the sheet on you guys. Magic numbers are updated. You'll need to re-download the spreadsheet and plug in your weapon stats, talents and (buffed) Attack Power.

More to come as I get the time (haste and crit modelling for a more accurate rage model)

[ebs2002]

Good point, blackNess. This is really hard to pin down, because your rage scenario is too fluid (are you taking damage? what's the mob's armor? etc).

Definitely, though, if you're stuck at 100 rage and you can't dump it with just slam, go ahead and dump it with Execute. Less damage per rage, but you can use up all that rage, too.

[Rishkkin]

Again ebs, thanks, I really hope someone at blizz takes a look at this, some people already noted the fact that MS was starting to get very lackluster.

I'll keep it only for times when I have to move too often to use slam. but might instead drop the 3 pts for improved elsewhere

[Rishkkin]

Wow Web Stats
That's the WWS for last night (up to Opera, I had to leave before the end).

For trash mobs, slamming is quite 'difficult' to use since things die way too fast. But on bosses who tends to move less and live longer, it get easier to increase our dps that way.

I didn't used MS that much (only toward the end of the run I started using it) The only real advantage (outside of the healing debuff) is the fact that is is an instant and can be used on the move.

I know my stats aren't outstanding (only 1620 AP, 37 % crit , 160 hit all this unbuffed) but I guess that I still did fine.

Next time I'll see if dual wielding and spamming execute yields better results. (although my DW weapons are crap)

I also know that at some point the elem shammie started using WF totem, this made me unable to slam spam to have my rage go down, it kept going up, I could basically just keep spamming it over and over

[ebs2002]

I also know that at some point the elem shammie started using WF totem, this made me unable to slam spam to have my rage go down, it kept going up, I could basically just keep spamming it over and over

In this scenario, using Execute whenever it's up is encouraged. I'd say that using MS is encouraged too, because MS does more damage than Slam.

The times to use Execute:
- Infinite Rage
- Below your "rage target" that my spreadsheet says

The times to use MS:
- Infinite Rage
- Moving target

[Rishkkin]

Source: ebs2002 In this scenario, using Execute whenever it's up is encouraged. I'd say that using MS is encouraged too, because MS does more damage than Slam. The times to use Execute: - Infinite Rage - Below your "rage target" that my spreadsheet says The times to use MS: - Infinite Rage - Moving target

Makes sense, but does that mean it is still worth speccing in imp MS ?

[ebs2002]

Well, what alternatives do you have? Improved Charge maybe. Or intercept or hamstring. If you wanted to add in more utility, you can. But MS can still be used; infinite rage is possible on melee-friendly fights. Also, some fights, having the healing debuff can be helpful (FLK, Anetheron, etc).

For pure PvE, I'd say that at least 2/3 Imp MS is sorta "manditory" except for special circumstances.

If you want to pick up more utility so you can PvP or grind easier, and skip Imp MS, your DPS probably won't take a huge hit, and in some fights it won't be affected at all.

[Rishkkin]

yeah, it's what I figured

Did you saw that the very bottom of arms has so many "good' talents that 52 in arms is a minimum ? I mean, if you take 2/2 BF 1/1 ER and 3/3 SD, you'll end up with 52 pts minimum.

[ebs2002]

Yeah, and to get to ER you need to take stuff in arms that isn't that good. You can skip Imp MS, but there's nothing else to carry you to endless rage except some utility.

Also, for PvE, you don't need your overpower cooldown set to 1sec, that's only useful in PvP, or if you're tanking. But we really don't have many other options...

[Kazeyonoma]

ebs, have you tried testing to see if with a 1 sec cd, if it's possible to fire off multiple overpowers per rend proc?

right now with 1 sec revenge cd, a player is reporting a bug where he parried 1 attack and was able to fire off 4 revenges.

[Rishkkin]

nope, 1 OP and the buff is consumed, don't know why it isn't the case with Revenge

[Kazeyonoma]

figured it was a bug, but this is a weirder bug because it means revenge doesn't check for the cd refresh while OP does. bad coding!

[Rishkkin]

Can't agree more on that :-P

I'd post about it on the beta forum, but can't (never been able to).

[Brainwreck]

I see it stated in the notes, but just to clarify, if you are at full rage, and sudden death procs, this spreadsheet does not apply to it, correct? Or are you saying you should ignore the proc and burn some rage before using SD?