[ebs2002]

Can anybody explain to me exactly what this means?

Say I'm using Blade of the Harbingers, and my average base weapon damage is 450.

1) Deep wounds does 60% of this damage over 12seconds, in three second ticks. A crit with my blade gives me 270dmg over 12seconds, with 4 ticks of 67.5 each.

So, if I crit once:
0.0s crit
3.0s 67dmg tick
6.0s 68dmg tick
9.0s 67dmg tick
12.0s 68dmg tick

Right?

2) In the past, a crit at 9.5s would just refresh the Deep Wound bleed effect on the target, keeping it up for another 12s. What happens now?

Can anyone give me details on exactly what happens? I haven't been able to find anything definitive.

[Rocki]

First off, DW is only 48% over 6 seconds now, which equals to 216 damage per wound. I can't remember for sure but I think it ticks every 3s still. "Rolling" means that it now works like ignite:

0.0 crit
3.0 tick: 108
4.0 crit
7.0 tick: 216
10.0 tick: 108

This basically means that while the timer is still reset, it remembers how much the next (1 or 2) tick(s) of the existing deep wounds would have done, and adds them to the new effect.

By the way, correct me if I'm wrong on the exact timing (i.e. the 2nd tick goes off at it's proper time rather than being delayed by the next crit), but I'm fairly sure on the other mechanics.

[Rishkkin]

From what I red on the beta forums :

The dmg from a remaining DW is averaged over the new DW.

Over 6 seconds, ticking every 2 seconds.
Case # 1
0.0 Crit
2.0 Tick 250
4.0 Crit 250
6.0 Tick 333.33
8.0 tick 333.33
10.0 tick 333.33

case # 2
0.0 Crit
2.0 Tick 250
4.0 Crit 250
6.0 Tick 333.33
8.0 Crit 333.33
10.0 Tick 361.11
12.0 Tick 361.11
14.0 Tick 361.11


as you can see, as long as you crit within DW's duration, the next ticks are increased. That explains why people have been able to "roll" ticks as up as 1900+ on the beta server.

For my part, using a ilvl 105 axe I managed to get my ticks up to 948 dmg / tick (I am far from wearing uber gear)

[ebs2002]

So wait, as long as you crit every 6 seconds, the damage per tick will never decrease?

Ie,
0.0 crit
2.0 crit 250
4.0 crit 333.33
6.0 crit 361.11
... crit every time
120.0 crit 1523.51 (makin these numbers up)
122.0 crit 1525.69

Is that correct?

Or if you crit every 2 seconds exactly, is it like:
0.0 crit (one stack)
2.0 crit 250 (two stacks)
4.0 crit 333.33 (three stacks)
6.0 crit 361.11 (four stacks, but one runs out, so three left)
8.0 crit 361.11 (four stacks, but one runs out, so three left)

I guess what I'm looking for is the actual math and system it follows. I've got a solid understanding of most of this game, but I can't find anything that DETAILS how the rolling actually works.

Ultimately, I'd like to use this information to create a model that will predict how high your deep wounds would get based on your crit rate, determine when it's best to blow your cooldowns, etc etc. Anybody who can give me a specific model for how this works (or link me to somewhere that it's being/been discussed) would be greatly appreciated!

[Rishkkin]

ok, I'll try to be clearer

Each DW proc has 3 ticks (one every 2 seconds)
Each DW Proc has a minimum DMG (48% of Weapon DMG to be precise)

Each time you crit, your have to check for the following :

- Is there a DW debuff actually running ?
- If so, How much time left ?
- If so, How much DMG per tick left ?

Based on that you add what remained of DW dmg and add it in a newly created DW debuff

For example lets say your 48 % of weapon dmg equals 250 DMG, then each tick will deal 83.3 dmg

total dmd / #ticks = dmgPerTick
(250 / 3) = 83.3

Now you have 2 crits back to back on your normal swings assuming a 3.0 swing speed.

You would end up with :

0.0 Crit
2.0 tick 83.3
3.0 Crit
5.0 tick 138.8
7.0 tick 138.8
9.0 tick 138.8 (DW fades off as no other crit came happenned)

Q: Now Why do we have 138.8 on the second crit ?
A: because the new DMG becomes (250 + (83.3*2)/3) = 138.8

Should another crit happen, DW will get rolled in a new debuff.
warning, I'm no math expert, but so far reports on the beta forums indicates this is how the new DW mechanic works.

Is it ok as it is ? I dunno but if it does stay as is, this is yet another reason to go axe before any other spec

[Rocki]

Ah right, now I get it too. So yes in fact the damage of Deep Wounds will forever increase as long as you crit at least once per 6 seconds. But, this merely means that even on a rolling wound from 10 crits 3 seconds apart, you still get the same damage as if those 10 crits were 10 seconds apart (and thus DW finishing every time).

So yeah, if 1 wound is 250 damage, you WILL do the full 250 eventually for each one... so no matter how fast the crits succeed eachother, 10 crits will always do 2500 deep wound damage.

[Rishkkin]

yep, that's about it.

It's just those ticks can get to a crazy amount if you keep critting :-D

[ebs2002]

Thanks guys, that really clears things up a bit. I hope to soon plan out a model that will determine your Deep Wounds up-time based on your crit and swing-time (wpn speed and haste), to see if we can't determine where we'd get the "theoretical 100% up-time" that we used to do with flurry. Also, based on those numbers, what you can expect the max tick to get up to before it falls off. But I'm not sure how vital this model is to the arms community, since 10 crits will cause DW to do 10*DW_DMG at the end.

[Rishkkin]

thanks to you ebs.

Can't wait to see your math.

What would be interesting also would be to compare 1 2 hander to 2 1 hander as far a DW uptime and dmg rolling

[ebs2002]

Yeah, that's another thing I'm considering. How great is Deep Wounds for a fury warrior. What would be the best weapon(s) to use for blowing cooldowns? Is it smarter to blow all cooldowns at once, or spread them out? Etc etc.

I can't promise that I can answer all this, but I'm excited to see what I can come up with.

[Kazeyonoma]

we believe in you curnguz, lol, i rely on you cuz the last time I tried to model something I borked it all up (anyone remember when I did initial Devastate testing when sunder was added to it? LOL, i reported it doing 600 innate threat... only to realize I factored in defensive stance twice or something)

[Chosenx]

So sitting at around 2150 ap and 33% crit completely unbuffed, would it be a greater dps increase if i regemmed some of my strength to crit? Or should I just leave it where it is now and grab some crit as it comes as i lvl in the expansion.

[lycankun]

str all the way imo bro... upgrades should be able to give you enough to just gem for str now.

[Rishkkin]

I've made up a small simulator in javascript (see attached file)

it's a .html file, so just open it in your browser and it should work.

It has a lot of limitations :

- swing rate must be a factor of 0.5 (for example 3.0 or 3.5 swing speed)
- Instant rate must also be a factor of 0.5 (1.5, 2.0 are correct values)
- Instant rate assumes you use an instant ability that has a chance to crit. (no shout, no hamstring, no pummel, etc) it also doesn't factor in bonus crit chances (Overpower for example)
- It assumes no misses (hit capped)
- It assumes no dodges or parries
- It assumes you can hit the target every single time (positioning, phases)

I also haven't factored in latency.

The purpose was just to see how the mechanic works out.

Interesting thing to note, each new crit delays the next deep wound tick by 2 seconds, this is something we haven't factored in in our previous guesses.

It will show Deppe wounds's uptime %
It will show each ticks's dmg
The total damage dealt over the defined duration
The maximum tick's value

there might be some bugs in it, but I didn't want to spend 2 days on that :-P

[Rishkkin]

If I might add, the tests I did clearly favored using a 2Hander versus 2 1 hander, the deep wound ticks being ways much bigger.

Yes, using 2 1 hander provides a better uptime, but the dmg done per tick is so insignificant compared to using a 2 hander.

[ebs2002]

Hm, if each crit delays the next tick by 2 seconds, that will definitely favor slower weapons to faster ones.

I was considering how beneficial it would be to equip two fast weapons and stack crit to push Deep Wounds damage as high as possible. Sure, you'd lose out on MS and OP damage, but Deep Wounds is currently doing a higher percentage of my damage than either of those two, so it's worth it.

Comparing to two slow weapons, while Deep Wounds ticks for less, you're also swinging faster. If you have two 100dps weapons at 1.5spd, and two 100dps weapons at 2.5spd, and your crit rate was the same, it could be proven that your deep wounds damage would be the same.

But if each crit pushes your next tick back 2secs, I'm not sure that critting faster would be beneficial. At 100% crit chance (impossible I know, but just to make my point), and you were swinging at 1.5spd, you'd never get a DW tick.

This is going to be tougher to model than I thought

[Rishkkin]

yeah, it's what I also figured out.

I'm not entirely sure about the 'delay' I'll try to look for a confirmation of that by parsing a combat log, but from the simulator I made, that's what happens.

I've tried using 1.0 swing speed and 1.5 instant speed, still keeping in mind teh simulator is far from perfect, I couldn't just match a 2 Hander's DPS. The 2 seconds delay simply makes a 2 hander ways more dangerous.

[Rishkkin]

btw I'm working on a better version of the simulator now. It will support any swing time, instant rate but best of all : dual wielding

[Rishkkin]

I'm seeing that Deep Wound damage is affected by AP (I also adjusted the weapon dmg part based on the formula found on wowwiki)

It's not specified by how much AP contribute to DW damage,

[ebs2002]

Is it being affected by AP, or is it being affected by bleed debuffs (mangle, trauma)?

That's what I'm looking to find out.