[Tonypablos]

All I'm going to say is 1128 dps with dual warglaives is pretty bad.

Furthermore you are keying up Heroic Strike a hell of a lot honestly. When your HS is actually second in your DPS in TG, there's a problem.

Hell, "I" cleared 1490 DPS with TG with lower gear than you, which is seen in the stuff I did, and that was through a six minute timer.

No offense here but you've got better gear than I do, I'll grant you that. But either your rotation is god awful, you're prioritizing the wrong skills in either spec or you don't understand the fact that Slam's probably leaps and bounds better than your HS ever is and should be second in your list, not last.

Let me explain the reasoning behind this and maybe you'll understand.

Slam, innately, hits harder with a two hander. We all know this. This is why PvE arms use the slam ability in their core rotation. With two weapons..why the hell would you not use slam either. ESPECIALLY with the changes in which it simply stops your swings. Hell, 90% of the time I have more rage with TG than I know what to do with it. I'll queue up HS if I remember but honestly? Doing a BT/WW/Slam/Slam rotation works out better. Weave in your slams while you're under CD and you'll prolly do a lot more damage than a heroic strike.

In the amount of time you have to swing your weapon and hitting off one higher impact HS that does insane threat anyway, you could weave in a Slam + another slam before BT is back up for the chance for nearly double the damage. DOUBLE the damage.

You are severely hurting your rotation by putting HS as your queue instead of slam and as such, your rotation is flawed for TG.

And don't ask me how in the world you only got 1120 DPS out of having two warglaives here because that just boggles me to no end. I used my 97 dps MH axe and my 95 DPS claw OH and did more dps than you did. Something's fundamentally wrong with your rotation.

[Korlong]

I'm not sold on using slam instead of heroic strike with Titans Grip, particularly as you get +15% crit to heroic strike + glyph of heroic strike and slam pauses both swing timers for 1.5 seconds.

I just tried it again using slam instead of heroic strike, and got very similar results as expected (around the same dps).

[Tonypablos]

1) On an arms Spec PvE dps, You are doing the following rotation: White/MS/Slam, White/WW/Slam. why? Because Slam is actually better dps than heroic strike is.

2) I believe, and don't quote me on this, that Heroic Strike just works with a one hander much better than a two hander.

3) Heroic Strike has an innate threat modifier which means by adding extra damage to the HS attack, you will generate far more threat and we're already lackluster when it comes to dealing with threat.

4) My rotation with lower hit, crit and gear outdid your Higher hit, crit and gear by nearly 150 DPS. Might want to look into that little option.

5) Come level 80, I could see maybe a 20 points in arms to increase two handed dps damage as well. with that, and the fact that you really don't have the ability to go very deep in arms due to the amount of points needed in a TG spec, I'm almost sure that Impale + the two handed extra damage will outrank Incite in every way.

I'm sorry Kor, but I seriously don't think you wanna use HS anymore. In fact, it's closely under my belief that Blizzard wants to push Fury and Arms warriors away from using Heroic Strike so it is a primarily tank ability which allows you to tank more efficiently by removing the chance of it being crushed thus more TPS.

I also sincerely do not see why people would go 8 points into incite unless you have 1 handers. HS just seems to work better with them. Slam's always been the better two hander dump.

I also don't get the idea of going xx/51/xx at all. Get rid of the last and probably go something like 20/51 to get impale + two handed weapon damage. I dunno, I just think the 5% extra damage from the talent + impale will be, let alone more damage than incite could ever bring + HS. And honestly, until I can see the difference really and I won't until I start leveling and testing level 80, I will stick with that honestly. Let the math gurus prove me wrong, that's fine because I fail at math hardcore.

I dunno, I just find it a little odd that you would think it wouldn't do more dps, and yet you compared Kaze's gear and told him he's not meant for a TG spec, but then when I have proof of my rotation working better, you're stating that it's not right. And yet again, I stress to tell you that I've done more dps with crappier gear than you did on the same mobs.

We'll have to agree to disagree I'm afraid.

[Korlong]

My gear is bad for Titan's Grip as well. I have two of the worst possible weapons to be using at the moment. From a technical standpoint, yours actually almost certainly work out better.

I don't know why my damage is lower. As I said above, I got approximately the same results using slam instead of heroic strike in the rotation. I agree that this option does seem better, as you have alot more rage sitting around.

I looked at your screenshots and recount is reporting you landing crushing blows - is it possible that your meter has "issues"?

Also I don't think you ever really explained your test procedure. I did all of my tests on a level 70 dummy, with no other classes applying buffs/debuffs to the dummy, and no armor reduction.

At 80 standard spec will be 18/54/0 to pick up two-handed weapon specialization in arms - at that point slam will definitely be the preferred option, so I guess we may as well start now.

Edit again:

I looked at your screenshots some more, and there must be some kind of variable that you're not telling us. Your maximum melee crit is almost 3000. I can't crit for that much with Titans Grip, even with Disdain and Fury of the Crashing Waves active. If I had to guess, I'd say you were using the level 60 training dummies.

[Tonypablos]

Then please don't criticize someone when your gear is not any better for the spec. We're all here testing stuff and we're all trying to find out just how crappy this talent is. It causes people to get rather annoyed about it and it doesn't bode very well for a stable conversation. Don't think it was called for that you would call him out on his gear when none of us really have the gear right now to test it out completely. I'm not in the beta, and as such, I don't know how the 80 stuff is going out. I'm presuming from a level 70 standpoint that it probably wont' get any different come 80. If it sucks now, then it probably will suck more because it's more demanding later.

The rage allows you to optimally get your attacks in no matter what. Now, don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying NEVER use HS. I'm saying don't use it as much. You wanna keep the steady rotation of BT/WW/Slam/Slam going. What I'm saying is that using HS over Slam is detrimental because the weapons you're using benefit more out of Slam.

I have no idea what in the world it's doing to talk about crushing blows. That's an interesting concept there and I have no clue why really. Maybe it has something to do with the meters but I've tested it out 3/4 times with the same numbers coming out so I'm sure that there's no problem with the meter.

My test procedures were rather simple: Standing behind a level 73 boss dummy when they had it in there, using battle shout, no sunders and what gear I had right now. The dummy also had no debuffs whatsoever so I got the most accurate damage you could currently do with this spec.

I also disclosed the fact that yes, 10 points are missing. And maybe that's where the rest of the damage we're suppose to get increases. But from beta testers themselves, about an overwhelmingly 90% of the testers agree that TG is not worth it at all.

It'll probably be some sort of spec, I haven't played too much with level 80 specs so far. I'll have to work on it and get back to you about that.

[Chosenx]

I don't think it matters what buffs etc. were on it, as it seems to be pretty consistent throughout anyway. That way no matter what the numbers are, the comparison can still be made.

[Malkieri]

kor, why did you use the incite build and not a variant of 13/48 or 15/46? seems to me that both of those would be better builds for fury with one-handers come patch?

[Graul]

Source: Tonypablos Furthermore you are keying up Heroic Strike a hell of a lot honestly. When your HS is actually second in your DPS in TG, there's a problem.

Actually that's incorrect. I ended up with similar results multiple times as 53/8. I don't know how long anyone here that says they are "testing" out builds actually runs each parse for, but six minutes is the magic number for a few reasons. I don't have any screenshots, because I honestly didn't feel I needed them at the time, but here are my results:

At 44% crit (unbuffed TG, 41.4% single weapon), 2980 AP with Battle Shout (second weapon is unenchanted...using 2x BoH, was using Cat's with Exe + BoH with Sav, but it was inferior overall), 16% ArP, 18.40% hit, 17 Expertise and 15% haste...

Classic Fury:1450 DPS
Incite Fury: 1480 DPS
Titan's Grip: 1650 DPS
Taste For Blood: 1700 DPS
Slam Spam: 1750 DPS. *notice how far above the hit cap I am, replacing 9% hit for 4% crit or 280 AP would make this even higher as would the Mortal Strike glyph.

I also had the Heroic Strike glyph.

These results were consistent through six minute fights per build three times each every day over the course of the last five days. I also ended up grouping with an Enhancement Shaman for about an hour trying out the Classic Fury and Titan's Grip builds and strangely, with Soe, WF and UR the DPS barely moved at all. I don't really understand that either

Doing a BT/WW/Slam/Slam rotation works out better. Weave in your slams while you're under CD and you'll prolly do a lot more damage than a heroic strike.

That's quite possibly the worst advice given in this thread.

[Arrivan]

Source: Graul At 44% crit (unbuffed TG, 41.4% single weapon), 2980 AP with Battle Shout (second weapon is unenchanted...using 2x BoH, was using Cat's with Exe + BoH with Sav, but it was inferior overall), 16% ArP, 18.40% hit, 17 Expertise and 15% haste... Classic Fury:1450 DPS Incite Fury: 1480 DPS Titan's Grip: 1650 DPS Taste For Blood: 1700 DPS Slam Spam: 1750 DPS. *notice how far above the hit cap I am, replacing 9% hit for 4% crit or 280 AP would make this even higher as would the Mortal Strike glyph.

Just wondering, did you use the same gear/gems for classic/Incite Fury as for TG (weapons excepted of course)? From what you said about the hit cap for the Slam spam spec I'd guess you did, so I wonder how much of a difference using "standard" Fury gems and such would make if that's the case?

Regardless, it seems that Slam spam may be the way to go in 3.0, which I find quite interesting. I'm going to have to play around with this myself once 3.0 hits (because I'm not reinstalling the PTR now). If someone with similar gear to me did the same test I could even investigate how hard latency will hit the new Slam spam spec considering Slam no longer resets the swing timer.

[Tatt]

That's quite possibly the worst advice given in this thread.[/quote]

Will people please stop commenting in this wonderfully cavalier and absolutely useless manner?

A. Its inflammatory, which accomplishes nothing.
B. It tells us absolutely nothing, your entire thread had no conclusion

If we want to use this site to learn, then we really need to start being a lot more considerate of other people's time and effort. If anyone here is willing to give any amount of their time in an effort to help educate others, then correct or incorrect we owe it to them to respond considerately whether we agree with them or not.

I personally will not respond again to this thread simply because all the information shown so far has proven, in my mind, only one thing.....that we have absolutely no idea what TG is going to do. Gear is obviously not as important to measure dps, or else Korlong would be leaps and bounds ahead of all of us. Rotations seem to be a personal preference thing, as different posters using different attack styles have demonstrated comparable output. The meters/system is still FUBAR, because windfury not increasing someone's dps is absolute crap and obviously a bug/flaw/error to be fixed.

[Graul]

Source: Arrivan Just wondering, did you use the same gear/gems for classic/Incite Fury as for TG (weapons excepted of course)? From what you said about the hit cap for the Slam spam spec I'd guess you did, so I wonder how much of a difference using "standard" Fury gems and such would make if that's the case? Regardless, it seems that Slam spam may be the way to go in 3.0, which I find quite interesting. I'm going to have to play around with this myself once 3.0 hits (because I'm not reinstalling the PTR now). If someone with similar gear to me did the same test I could even investigate how hard latency will hit the new Slam spam spec considering Slam no longer resets the swing timer.

Most of the other gear that I had that had less hit was ArP based and in almost all cases inferior to simply wearing gear that had hit instead because the actual stats other than hit (or ArP) were superior, and ArP seems like it's going from one of the best stats to the worst for raids. The only significant difference between the 2h builds and the 1h build is that with the 1h build I was at 36% crit, 11% haste and around 150 less AP. I also wear a DST for the 1h builds and a TT for the 2h builds.

Will people please stop commenting in this wonderfully cavalier and absolutely useless manner? A. Its inflammatory, which accomplishes nothing. B. It tells us absolutely nothing, your entire thread had no conclusion

It's quite simple really; it works almost completely against all benefits from haste. You can never speed up a 1.5 second cast, but you can speed up 495 damage and glancing prevention is another reason Heroic pulls ahead. And just to humor you I tried out weaving untalented Slams in between the two instants and the results were as expected; a DPS drop. The gap would be even wider raid buffed.

Also, if you don't like criticism devoid of much information, you might want to check yourself when compiling posts like #41. It smacks of epeen waggling and has a lot of condescending comments as well as conjecture based on feeling and not facts that you could have left out if the sole purpose of this site is to learn as you say.

[Arrivan]

Source: Graul Most of the other gear that I had that had less hit was ArP based and in almost all cases inferior to simply wearing gear that had hit instead because the actual stats other than hit (or ArP) were superior, and ArP seems like it's going from one of the best stats to the worst for raids. The only significant difference between the 2h builds and the 1h build is that with the 1h build I was at 36% crit, 11% haste and around 150 less AP.

Alright, that wouldn't cause the 200 DPS disparity alone then.

Based on your numbers TG seems to be about a 14% DPS increase which is approximately on target for the appropriate "power" Blizzard want each talent point to have. I wonder if this difference is the same at lower hit levels too. That's something else I'd like to test out.

Edit: Anyway, it's late and I'm tired so I'm off to bed. If any of my assumptions are wrong then I haven't thought it through enough probably for that reason.

[Tonypablos]

Graul, I've been watching your posts and as always I respect your testings as you are, by far, on a better perspective to be able to give information.

However, at 70, as I stated in the first post of this thread, I found that weaving your slams through your cooldowns did more damage than not using slam whatsoever and just queuing up Heroic Strike and hitting Slam when you hit with BT. Maybe I did something wrong with my rotation and maybe I did something right with the slam abilities but that's just how my numbers came out.

If it changes at 80, then I'm sure it's probably better dps but I don't have that answer. The only answer I have is the ones I did on the test. I'm not going to shout and call foul when someone tells me that I gave bad advice. I'm man enough to stand up to it and say maybe you're right considering you have a lot more information than I do. If that is the case, it still shows that TG is sincerely not at the level at which we need.

Also, I wouldn't mind seeing screenshots of your damage. Number input is nice, but I don't know, I don't like the idea of using Heroic Strike in a DPS build, personally, when it has a high amount of threat linked to it. I wouldn't mind using Slam over HS as a dump.

But, by all means, if you have screenshots that prove it through 80 content, then I will bow and give you consent that it's the better build.

...this is also assuming you ARE the Graul that posts stuff about DPS issues on the warrior beta forums. If you're not, then I've made a mistake.

EDIT: I realized this morning that I had done the tests so far only with an older build and AttT wasn't in the spec nor was a couple of other changes. Therefore, for the sake of this argument, here are the two screenshots taken of my rotation of BT/WW/Slam/Slam with queuing up of HS when over 60 rage and BT/WW/HS and slamming only when BT crit.



TG with Heroic Strike predominant.



TG with Slam Rotation.

Again, even after testing, TG with a Slam weave seems to be more dps than the normal rotation by about 50 DPS. This is, AGAIN, level 70 testing. This is also with a 53/8 spec on both ends, with a more than 6 minute test period. I don't know but I'm again kinda leaning that my rotation that I just started doing is better than our normal rotation due to the mechanics of bloodsurge and having two 2 handers on you. Both dummies had no buffs whatsoever when i was doing the tests, nor did I sunder. This was also done with the gear I currently have on from live, but with bloodmoon in the MH, and Despair in the OH.

Take it for what it's worth. =/

[Graul]

Also, I wouldn't mind seeing screenshots of your damage. Number input is nice, but I don't know, I don't like the idea of using Heroic Strike in a DPS build, personally, when it has a high amount of threat linked to it. I wouldn't mind using Slam over HS as a dump.

I'll see about doing this later when no one else is around. Right now it's too busy to get anything reliable. Also, have you ever raided as Fury? Heroic Strike is a staple ability and the threat using it in a 1h DW build would be higher than what you would see with a slower weapon, and threat has not been an issue since the beginning of Black Temple almost a year ago (*ok, most non gimmick fights like Bloodboil). The typical breakdown on boss fights is:

Auto 40%
Heroic 25%
Bloodthirst 18%
Whirlwind 10%
Execute 6%
Deep Wound 1%

Heroic Strike use is higher depending on how many Bloodlusts we get as well as how many drum users are in the group.

[Tonypablos]

Source: Graul I'll see about doing this later when no one else is around. Right now it's too busy to get anything reliable. Also, have you ever raided as Fury? Heroic Strike is a staple ability and the threat using it in a 1h DW build would be higher than what you would see with a slower weapon, and threat has not been an issue since the beginning of Black Temple almost a year ago. The typical breakdown on boss fights is: Auto 40% Heroic 25% Bloodthirst 18% Whirlwind 10% Execute 6% Deep Wound 1% Heroic Strike use is higher depending on how many Bloodlusts we get as well as how many drum users are in the group.

My main for the longest of time was my Warrior and I raided both Fury and Arms, albeit only until the middle of SSC where I switched over to my Elemental Shaman. But I've kept up with the information and I know that HS is a key component of a Fury build because it removes the chance of glancing and adds that extra damage. It's also the best dump as well.

However, Slam at that time was one that resetted your speed + was much better with a two hander. I played the Imp Slam spec with BF so I know the abilities of Slam and HS well enough to consider my knowledge to be up to date.

I just don't really see why you would not want to use Slam instead of HS considering Slam just generally is better for a two hander. Yes, the rotation's ackward, I'll grant it that. I just use Slam in between CDs and ensure that BT and WW are down.

I'm waiting for the Screenshots for sure.

[Korlong]

I think you'll find that it works out that heroic strike is better in raid situations, with the new windfury (20% haste) and bloodlust increasing the penalty for using slam.

[Tonypablos]

Source: Korlong I think you'll find that it works out that heroic strike is better in raid situations, with the new windfury (20% haste) and bloodlust increasing the penalty for using slam.

Now this alone might be true. I really haven't touched on how much haste will really affect my rotation. I'd have to test out some haste. With the DST however, which lowers my swing rate fast enough, I can still weave the Slams through and do decent.

Honestly, it'll all be in the end what to do once we level. More tests will be done by level 80s and hopefully we'll have Corbusier come out of wherever he's hiding and actually find something.

Otherwise we'll have to find someone else who can discuss with us what the right things are. But testing's all going to be needing.

As it stands right now? I'm sincerely considering a switch in classes because I'm unimpressed with what Fury brings to a raid. Blizzard really has until 3.0 is loaded to the Live Servers to impress me, otherwise I will make my choice.

[Graul]

Still couldn't get any decent trials lately with it being overcrowded, but this is about an hour with an Enhancement Shaman and Ret Paladin. This is what happens when you are swinging 2x 3.5 speed weapons at 2.0 speed on average and as low as 1.6 with DST procs:




The second axe is still unenchanted too and I also don't have the Heroic glyph on this character.

[Tonypablos]

Methinks there's missing something! XD

EDIT: There it is!

Huh. Always interesting to see...what's weird for me to see is that your HS is in first place o.O

I'm also very unimpressed and uninspired by the glyphs. There's practically nothing really 'useful' in the warrior dps section. Maybe I'm blind or something..

But I'm moreso curious about raid stuff and seeing if we're actually an asset and viable dps to bring now. I've been hearing nothing but doom and gloom from the people at 80 so maybe you can elaborate on this, Graul.

[Graul]

Source: Tonypablos But I'm moreso curious about raid stuff and seeing if we're actually an asset and viable dps to bring now. I've been hearing nothing but doom and gloom from the people at 80 so maybe you can elaborate on this, Graul.

Can't really add anything that's not already been said here: WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> DPS warriors a 25man Raid Perspective

Something has to change. I really don't agree at all with the homogenization direction Blizzard is going with the game, handing out our abilities to other classes (or giving us a redundant "buff") while we still keep all of our penalties, but apparently Warriors have to have a "counterbalance" attatched to everything good. This is a pre TBC mentality that doesn't fit the current or upcoming game setting.